Guys I say: ignore his topic, he clearly isn’t up for discussion and only thinks his mind is the right one.
yup. you’re right… clearly, not agreeing with people just because they want to be right, and presenting logical arguments is insulting…
please, ignore it. i didn’t post it for your sake anyways ;p
in fact, i’d be much happier if you did just that…
But your arguements are not all logical - And some of them are wrong.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but you then equally have to respect others opinions - Something of which you are unable to do judging by the post and your subsequent replies
G4: dunno… and i’d say the guy dealing 90% damage to a target should get most points out, not the kill stealer
Suggestions were made a while back to make it based on Dmg contribution. Did some thinking on it and decided I was against it. It’s an either-or situation how kill points being rewarded. Both are equally bad at being fair.
Here’s one scenario where damage contribution fails:
Combat Recon, Engineer vs Command 1on1 medium range shootout
Neither wants to move away from their half of the big asteroid
Damage done by Command is being tanked by the Engineer shot per shot over 20 or so seconds.
Then a CovOps swoops in - deals bust damage on the Engineer just enough to push him over the edge and claims the kill
Damage done by Command over time = 128,000
Damage done by CovOps = 7,600
Now - without the CovOps - that Command ship would never have made enough an impact to even dream of killing the frigate
Yet in a contribution based system he gets the points for achieving effectively nothing at all
That is not to say the current way of things being done is fine. It’s not. But neither is the contribution system. Both are bad alternatives to one another. Dev picked one they liked better.
Kill stealing is not an efficiency points issue. It’s made a big deal by DSR players coz they only get points for claiming kills
Difference between a Kill and Damage Assist?
= 20 points
I mean srsly ? I wouldn’t even bother arguing over that
It’s a mental shift. I can strip shields in seconds. Time it takes to complete the kill would be enough to take out 3 shields. And i ping people I wear out so if all of them die I end up with 240 points. Way better than 100 points for one kill and not enough to aggravate me for losing 20 points difference.
A5: I am fine with the current system, there is no need for engines while in that screen.
A5: It’s fine as is, because that map isn’t linked with your ship. So moving isn’t something you should be doing on it, anyway.
People who don’t / can’t / won’t read the radar use the map instead. They’ll scan it for half a second while flying. Kinda annoying as speed keeps gettig cut-off.
actually, getting 8 kills and 16 assists requires considerably more skill than picking up and dropping 3 bombs if the entire map is clear of enemies thanks to your wonderful teammates who are getting ripped off…
Valid in random matches. But between 2 good sides (say two top corps on either side) things play out different. Fact that ANYONE can pick up the EMP and survive 2 seconds is a miracle in those games what with target calling and coordinated focus fires (much different from vanilla focus fires)
Properly done FFs can disable buffs, debuff, stun and burst kill you with ++20k omni damage in a space of exactly 1.5 seconds. I have had the pleasure to implode under that sort of coordination in more than one occasion. Being able to plant the EMP just ONE time will ensure the match goes to time where one side will ball up and the other either suicide push over and over at the cost of DSR or they accept their fate and farm kills / synergy while waiting.
I don’t particularly agree to the points system but I believe more thought should go into it. And especially recognition that some matches; the most fun ones, don’t exactly fit your assumptions. The numbers that i see in the OP actually penalizes genuine good games.
moved this to the appropriate thread.
I do shoot at the enemy from where I am and duck back into cover when the odds don’t favour me. Especially in realistic mode, I value my own survival because I know I can bring allies who are on the verge of death back to full health, and these allies can then go into the field again and score kills and capture beacons. Is there anything wrong with that? Am I not contributing to the team?
Yes, of course, it’s abusable. But I just don’t want to be penalized for playing strategically.
Imperial LRFs do have debuffs. If you play like a gunship (made more viable since you can tag along with a guard that doesn’t slow you down, and LRFs have a survivability boost) you might be able to lure enemies into locking on to you, then IR pulsar them. Awkward, but it could be a viable tactic.
Tacklers have slowing field missiles which they can launch at a beacon and reap the debuff assists. Abusable. Apart from that, TP has an almost non-existent cooldown, so it’s spammable (more so if you have a range boost).
and you should shoot at enemies when advantageous. if you just sit there providing buffs you are not effectively utilizing all of your potential. if the enemy is using theirs = easy loss for you.
and using this method you can end up on top every time ~3000 eff. like i said: some ships really easy to get synergy on, others are really hard, because of these imbalances. some ships are more geared to kills/dmg assists, which simply don’t net enough points…
there’s nothing strategic at randomly picking up bombs and throwing yourself at beacons in the hope of getting free points.
yes im aware of IR pulsar… the problem is it requires you to be in the front line, and is also not a aoe debuff, only works on targets attempting to lock you. and is generally inferior to other survival modules since covert can still arc you, and they can web you before you activate pulsar. and then shoot you to death, doesnt need lock. recon doesn’t need lock either, only ecm does. bubblegun… no comment…
the tackler slowing field missiles can be a hindrace in some cases, and reduce the amount of damage you can do. although they’re really great to stop pushes, but getting assist with them is hard since the enemy will generally leave the area before they die. at least if they’re smart, they’ll avoid i altogether :\
Suggestions were made a while back to make it based on Dmg contribution. Did some thinking on it and decided I was against it. It’s an either-or situation how kill points being rewarded. Both are equally bad at being fair.
Damage done by Command over time = 128,000 Damage done by CovOps = 7,600
Yet in a contribution based system he gets the points for achieving effectively nothing at all
Kill stealing is not an efficiency points issue. It’s made a big deal by DSR players coz they only get points for claiming kills
Difference between a Kill and Damage Assist?
= 20 points
Valid in random matches. But between 2 good sides (say two top corps on either side) things play out different. Fact that ANYONE can pick up the EMP and survive 2 seconds is a miracle in those games what with target calling and coordinated focus fires (much different from vanilla focus fires)
Properly done FFs can disable buffs, debuff, stun and burst kill you with ++20k omni damage in a space of exactly 1.5 seconds.
I don’t particularly agree to the points system but I believe more thought should go into it.
yes, the damage over time to larger targets is a problem, since they prob wont heal it back in 15 secs, yet no assist… i don’t really know of a way to solve that right now…
as for killstealing, i think you get DSR boosts for assists… since you do get slayer of immortals for assists… so i’m guessing other things are tied to them as well… if not, then needs a fix.
and yea, the assist/kill killstealing argument is void, since assists provide 80% of a kill’s points, providing enough incentive to assist and not just killsteal. small bonus goes to the guy who lands the killing blow. 20 points.
coordinated defense is also much different from vanilla defense. if you call the wrong strategic target - like a bomb carrier - you will mostly likely wander into a trap.
yes, i’ve made that argument before, that TTK (time to kill) with ecm disables and FF (focus fire) is way too short. you can pop in under 3 seconds… on a guard… with engineer+command support… while under the effects of jelly donut +20 fortitude.
assists have no effect whatsoever on dsr
well then that’s sad. debuff/buff assists? no… damage assists: they need to provide DSR.
Suggestions were made a while back to make it based on Dmg contribution. Did some thinking on it and decided I was against it. It’s an either-or situation how kill points being rewarded. Both are equally bad at being fair.
Here’s one scenario where damage contribution fails:
Combat Recon, Engineer vs Command 1on1 medium range shootout
Neither wants to move away from their half of the big asteroid
Damage done by Command is being tanked by the Engineer shot per shot over 20 or so seconds.
Then a CovOps swoops in - deals bust damage on the Engineer just enough to push him over the edge and claims the kill
Damage done by Command over time = 128,000
Damage done by CovOps = 7,600
Now - without the CovOps - that Command ship would never have made enough an impact to even dream of killing the frigate
Yet in a contribution based system he gets the points for achieving effectively nothing at all
If the Command dealt 128,000 damage vs 7600 for the CovOps, that should earn 80 points. If a third ship comes in, deals 500 damage, did it really earn 80 points?
as for killstealing, i think you get DSR boosts for assists… since you do get slayer of immortals for assists… so i’m guessing other things are tied to them as well… if not, then needs a fix.
DSR is unaffected by assists, damage or otherwise. In fact, we do not know how it’s really calculated, only assumptions.
If the Command dealt 128,000 damage vs 7600 for the CovOps, that should earn 80 points. If a third ship comes in, deals 500 damage, did it really earn 80 points?
these scenarios are impossible to calculate. ie:
unit A does 1000 damage to unit Z.
unit B does 2000 damage to unit Z.
unit Z heals back 2000 damage.
should unit A get an assist? who knows…
effectively it’s just unit B who did 1000 damage at that point. since the 1000 done by unit A first was healed back.
and what happens when you stagger the damage so that:
unit A does 200 damage
unit B does 600 damage
unit A does 400 damage
unit B does 600 damage
etc…
in the same respect: should an engineer receive assists for healing back 20 damage? etc…
i think it’s best to keep it as simple as possible, otherwise things can get messy.
edit: it can be done logically, but implementing the code would be difficult.
basically you would need to make a queue member attached to each ship class object. you push damage amounts onto the queue with a reference to the attacking object. then, when the unit is healed, you subtract the heal amount from the first object in the queue and remove it when it reaches zero. then you can obtain exact percentages of their health each unit did. but it would also be a bit processor intensive i imagine, adding some load to the engine. also, you’d need separate queues for hull and shields.
the same can technically be done for resistance buffs, or debuffs, by calculating the extra EHP your buffs/debuffs are contributing to. but how do you ‘weigh’ the importance of disables and other debuffs remains to be answered.
If the Command dealt 128,000 damage vs 7600 for the CovOps, that should earn 80 points. If a third ship comes in, deals 500 damage, did it really earn 80 points?
Lots more scenarios where things can get hairy, yes. Like multiple contributors. You would think that dealing exact amounts of damage would be rare but there are numerous common damage values in a player’s arsenal
Mines, Missiles, LRFs
on top of the ones beta gave examples of while I was typing this 
A4: There really is none. Just go check those options.
A5: dealwithit.jpg. This isn’t the first game I’ve played where opening the map stops you from any motion.
A6: Speed is lower because the Katana-S has a hidden speed bonus. Try unfitting your ship before comparing, too, you dingus.
A7: And? Turrets still take time in ROTATION. Kinda like the old Heavy Weapons. Remember those?
C1: No, White Noise is fine as is, it’s just on the wrong ship.
C2: The Guard is an Area Denial ship. Tacklers? Sure, bring it.
D1: You said they were OP, but there was no proof of it… I can say Commands are totally OP, but that’s just me talking. I can say Engineers are OP, but that’s just talk… And so forth…
E1: Because that’s their job, as a Fighter pilot. Debuff and have a team mate aid you in the kill.
F2: Translation: “We are aware of the existence of issues, but not with this.”
F3: More than enough to get you away from it.
G4: It really isn’t.
I1: Do give examples. The only one I can think of is Ice Reef and the debris one. And the Beacon REALLY is roughly the same range from spawn, with a few dozen metres in discrepancy.
I2: Exactly. So why the need to kill him twice? Once was bad enough.
J1: The killview shows you his entire ship. His paintjob AND his sticker. Good enough!
J2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flare_(countermeasure)
K2: Neither does top gear in a regular market. I’m ok with pilots selling their loot for others to buy, but that’s it.
L1: Depends. How often do you win? Matter of fact, how often do you have a match?
L2: I meant what I said.
L3: Little discrepancy, there… You can use any LoL champions in any game at any time. Here, you can’t use a Piranha-B in a T1 match.
L6: My total amount of Purples found must be near 50, so far. And 10 salvaged, total. WITH the 30% option. Yeah… Totally fair…
Guys I say: ignore his topic, he clearly isn’t up for discussion and only thinks his mind is the right one.
Oh, I’m just enjoying myself proving him wrong. I don’t really give a toss about the topic.
Thanks for the suggestions, but usually it is better to use existing threads and make 1 thread for each suggestion if there is no equal thread.
A4: There really is none. Just go check those options.
A6: Speed is lower because the Katana-S has a hidden speed bonus. Try unfitting your ship before comparing, too, you dingus.
A7: And? Turrets still take time in ROTATION. Kinda like the old Heavy Weapons. Remember those?
C1: No, White Noise is fine as is, it’s just on the wrong ship.
C2: The Guard is an Area Denial ship. Tacklers? Sure, bring it.
F3: More than enough to get you away from it.
I2: Exactly. So why the need to kill him twice? Once was bad enough.
J2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flare_(countermeasure)
K2: Neither does top gear in a regular market. I’m ok with pilots selling their loot for others to buy, but that’s it.
L1: Depends. How often do you win? Matter of fact, how often do you have a match?
L3: Little discrepancy, there… You can use any LoL champions in any game at any time. Here, you can’t use a Piranha-B in a T1 match.
L6: My total amount of Purples found must be near 50, so far. And 10 salvaged, total. WITH the 30% option. Yeah… Totally fair…
A4. it might actually be lag related. as just from appearance it seems to happen on some servers more than others, but needs more testing. at first seems like a code issue. snib was reporting this in the 0.9.3 thread.
A6. oh yea, right unfitting… forgot about… but since you mentioned it… it should compared them both without mods… since you can’t always equip the same mods on another ship you’re comparing dues to slots…
A7. and it works poorly with the flight system due to looking being tied to barrel vector. if you look left and right and swing your view or your ship around, the guns will be completely where you don’t expect them to be.
C1. no, the covert needs something to prevent quick lockons. it’s a bomber/interceptor basically.
C2. sure, you can deny your entire 1km radius of space, tied to your leash.
F3. what? how can you dodge point blank em torps? they explode as soon as they are fired… :\ unless you have ESP, warning aint help you…
I2. to give him a chance to smarten up, otherwise they don’t learn anything… also… take tennis: love-15-30-40… or something like that, isn’t it? and one side always needs a 2 point advantage to win. because: winning once proves nothing. otherwise it’d be down to the first serve… ACE! game over! ;p pretty boring way to play tennis, no? in fact, when my team kills the commander in 30 secs, the feeling i usually get is… damn that was boring…
J2. except a countermeasure includes many things… and an IR flare is a specific type of CM (infrared)… advanced civilizations won’t mess with infrared, they’ll just use probability-altering missile on you to hit you at all points in the past, present and future… your move… 
yes, thats a gurren lagann quote.
K2. top gear is available in all rpg markets. it costs more, but it’s there…
L1. win? my stats: 1.3 win ratio or so… i recently messed it up due to quitting laggy RU servers and warping into walls to display my dissatisfaction… don’t see what effect this has on credits per match except first daily bonus.
L3. that’s also true, which means ships should cost less than LoL characters? LoL used to be competitive when you could buy a decent percentage of all the champs, or at least the important ones for 70-100$. now, with so many champs, you gotta spend 200-300$ to have the same advantage as others. which basically puts it out of reach for a great many players… so the game becomes uncompetitive, since there is unfair access to ‘power’… same applies here: a single T4 with mods can run 50$. that is simply unobtainable for a vast number of players.
L6. so 20%… yea, that’s probability at work…
Thanks for the suggestions, but usually it is better to use existing threads and make 1 thread for each suggestion if there is no equal thread.
sorry, can’t do. easier to organize my thoughts this way and provide all information in a single repository.
also easier to discuss the issues all at once, rather than separately and then reference other threads.
otherwise, keeping track of threads would be impossible.
also, just a random question: what is this calling targets stuff all about?
i always seem to target some dude 5 seconds before someone calls him out…
is this a glitch in the matrix? ;p
It’s cooldown management
no comprende.
just another funny story about em torps tho:
can’t count how many times i’ve shot a torp to some dude off the the side/behind me, only to have it hit some cloaked dude point blank or 500m out and get a kill… be confused for a second… and then… oh yea… that moment… when you realize… and do a facepalm.
yus rawr. Fired one off yesterday in the general direction of a lone Engineer. Turns out, he wasn’t alone. Took out a couple of cloaked inties who I assume were trying to get there for heals …
one of the most annoying things about nukes is that when you’re listening to music, some of the beats will drown out the beeps, then some explosion in the game will drown out the others… and before you know it, you’re dead ;p
it’s like nukes are the anti-music weapon… :\ they don’t want us to enjoy good beats…
I shall upvote for this.
One hell of a long thread… shall come back and look through everything more carefully when I have time.
was just thinking about bomb rewards again, and it seems synergy is tied to match length.
at least i know you can do nothing 0k-0a-0c in a game and still get synergy. and the longer the game, the more synergy you seem to get. impression anyways.
would need to test. but if that’s the case, then:
+33% credits in a 3.5min match compared to 7+ mins… for just picking+planting 3 bombs? insane…
the assumption is that in a 7-10min match, that would have also netted ~10-15k synergy. and probably +100% credits? :\
so the incentive is pretty much to hog the bomb and not to assist your teammates in planting.
in fact, it’s better to wait for them to die so you can pick it up and plant it yourself…
this rewards stupid behaviour…