Allow squads from the same corp to vs

Then make Leagues better… 1 corp=1 team, 8 vs 8 matches or even bigger… make it 3-4 times a day and at least 3 hrs long… no Destroyers in there. Something like old sec con, but bigger squads… maybe ppl would like that, big matches with friends… If they wont ppl to play Leagues adapt them… but they wont adapt them. U know why (of course you do, you not Jon Snow)? if they implement something like this all corp players would go and play this, PVP/PVE would be left empty, and those guys that don’t wont to find a corp & play this way would rage and talk bad about the game.

This system of Leagues is bad, 5 vs 5 is small IMO, and it’s adapt your RL with other in your team if you want to play…

this isnt going to make leagues any better, if anything this will compleately kill it.

CinnamonFake (Today, 02:26 PM): 

It’s obvious for you maybe, but not for all the pilots who are playing them and preparing for May Marathon. According to you, it will be much more fun to smash solo players in PvP with a squad. The exact solo players, who don’t want squads or just don’t care. Leagues are the pure teamwork. But it’s a challenge and requires skill.

Way to not bother listening to what anyone says.

According to me, being able to play PvP with friends is much more fun than wasting time on a dead mode designed purely to appeal to the uber-competitive.

 

You pretend the only people who ever wanted squads are the uber-elite vet corps, and when presented with proof this isn’t the case you just flat out ignore it.

 

…the only guys still activly playing are like 30 people in ultra organized teams. No one will face them, neither me… If i can’t train my team in random pvp than i will never go against people that are already ultra used in teamplay. We did it for months, then we got way to bored of that…

 

Right and the moment squads are allowed back in Random PvP, those same Uber competitive squads will go into random PvP too. 

There are plenty of games that mix Teams into Random Q, but then there are enough games that separate them.

this isnt going to make leagues any better, if anything this will compleately kill it.

Leagues are dead now. A few squads playing it dob’t make it alive.

Leagues are dead now. A few squads playing it dob’t make it alive.

Yeah and making it 10x times more exclusive is the way to fix it.

gotta agree with kosty however on the leagues: 8v8 is not gonna happen there with our current population. organizing 8 ppl to play CtB is really not an easy task.

 

better chances with daily tournaments or something, as they are more popular in this regard.

 

 

Right and the moment squads are allowed back in Random PvP, those same Uber competitive squads will go into random PvP too. 

 

And? Isn’t that a good thing?

It’s expectable to see hard enemies in the last tier of a game! Can play T4 just as much, its not like the mechanics differ!?

 

it really depends, on what you want to hear as a complaint.

and mixing the complaints together into one big fruit bowl makes no sense.

except you are not capable of keeping that big picture clear in your mind.

 

there is just no single reason i heard until now, which would tell me that squads in R15 is really a bad idea. but plenty of sidelining and excuses.

there are really reasons you brought up, why i accept, that squads throughout the whole rank system is maybe not a good idea, and yes, also removing T3 as the main place where people meet was maybe a good move, if we look into a future - but now I ask myself to what end, if there is no projected future.

 

the problem of your wannabe-prophecies is, that it basicly is fed by old myths. by historical problems, that the squads got blamed on, but in reality it was never that simple.

Maybe, its just the bad memories of early T5, when T4&T5 were one big queue, and basicly, that was the reason why T4 was dead forever? I could understand psychological trauma there, as the death squad era was scary, but again, it wasnt the squads, it was, that really old players basicly had fully purple R15 ships on day 1, while most others just entered T4, and the mixed tiers basicly kept everyone in T3.

 

read again: giving squads a MM disadvantage has caused Pro Squads to become so dominant. You dont believe it? learn evolutionary processes.

again: talking down squads as something uber, is what makes them so uber. Why protect “the solo player” throughout the game? As if you couldnt have fun solo besides a squad? As if the game is impossible like that? BS! Most of us play just as much solo as they squadded, and if the game decides, like yesterday, 4 of one corp in one team, its just a slaughterfest, and WE WERE NOT EVEN ON TS, we just got used to play with each other…

 

again: the reason why squads didnt work out was because they were not rewarded, and just blamed. because feedback of new players was mixed into feedback of agendas.

again: those people in those squads only got good, because they HAD THE OPPORTUNITY of learning the game in the high-life of daily multi-squad-T3-mayhem days in 2013, or just are so old, that they were already in closed alpha <= 2012.

 

again, what shalls, if t5 has squads and no one goes there as long as the squads are there?

whats the problem there?

its the endgame tier!

and if no squad comes to challenge them anyway, they just wait in queue!

 

I criticize the one-sidedness of how this gets handled. That everything is only done in extremes (no squads. or squads.). If you present the game like this:

 

"We are just a small team, f2p game. We are just a niche product, because space games dont sell so well, well except the top selling AA titles.

All players want to play this game and have fun. We dont want to make anyone cry. we want everybody to enjoy the game!

Our game is based on teamplay, and hardcore elements, like fitting and twitch-based action, but we don’t want to lose all the customers who just play casually.

we even dumbed down some parts of the game, that it really doesnt matter if you can play the game as long as you have fun, right!?

For the team players we created small gamemodes they could play if they were not so stubborn accepting that we try to be without a target audience, and only follow the principle of “i dont want to lose any one player”, even if this stupid mindset makes my game have really bad ratings, really bad player retention, while actually it’s still without a true competitor and basicly even the most critical voices praise it silently for having a good concept."

 

then you basicly deserve to not get respect.

 

But I also know, you have some secret enjoyment of polarization. So I keep feeding you.

Feel so trolled right now.

Yeah and making it 10x times more exclusive is the way to fix it.

Well you can tell yourself that you are right but it won’t change the fact that you are wrong. Something is dead, current rules made it that way. Something else might revive it. Maybe g4borg has a point, maybe 8 vs 8 would not work, but he needs to know that with a fun, large, teamplay gamemode would get some players back to this game which would revive the game alltogether.

How I see it, the weekend tournament is the perfect model for squads in pvp. There is encouragemeng to form squads in the form of small GS reward (enough to get a paint job), squads that are not large enough are completed by randoms. If there is a team full of randoms then it will likely go against another team of randoms (except unlucky occasions). A team of 8 squaded will go against another team of 8. If you win, you are more likely to face harder targets in the next match. Now I can’t figure out the specifics, but the devs have a very successful example to base their improvements to social play on, and finally allow me to play PVP with my friends more than three matches per week…

Well you can tell yourself that you are right but it won’t change the fact that you are wrong. Something is dead, current rules made it that way. Something else might revive it. Maybe g4borg has a point, maybe 8 vs 8 would not work, but he needs to know that with a fun, large, teamplay gamemode would get some players back to this game which would revive the game alltogether.

We already have had THIS and NOBODY was playing it.  Did you know that old Sec Con allowed 8 man wings? Did you see many of them playing?

You have no idea how hard it is to form 8 man team AND make it organised every fg day, tactics/roles/ what to do and not once a weekend. Dump 8 man together and click launch is easy, but that is no different from 8 randoms. One of the big issues with leagues is it’s exclusiveness (it was kinda the intent though, but ended up overboard imho), increasing a team size even by 1 person will have huge consequences. 

i love tourneys, but i even stopped caring about those…

if you look at competitively active corps, in the western community, all you have is the manga rambo collective, who has basicly taken all egocentric killer vets and relies on the simple tactic of smash it before it actually beats you, still has no logo, and the last rests of old corps with switching individuals, basicly just the same people in different groups.

also tourneys work coz they still carry the old t3 mentality and balance, basicly the only layer of the game which was always balanced well since it produced the right amount of statistical data.

i do understand why squads were abandoned globally, i even find it good it was extinct for a while, since it seems to remind people what things are about.

and many voices which were adamantly defending every patch in the past, have thrown the towel - some of them even completely publicly recanting their previous stance on certain things.

inbetween, i play a few citizen matches and realize, this is going to be so awesome, why even try to help here. and that while i actually really dont wanted to play a cockpit based space shooter.

or ark survival of the fittest reminds how much teamplay can be fun even if you suck.

and youtube reminds me, that actually, even if there are numerous games which do it like mix or not mix, the final tenor of the hardcore players is always: git gud. team up. l2p.

good games arent too afraid to be self aware that certain parts of their game depends on skill and experience.

i even see destros as a good try to balance strategic slow pace players into a game that depended a lot on fast reflex killer players. i even see the new things kinda in a mixed light of “maybe it evolves”.

i just dont understand, why the whole squad thing isnt taken as an opportunity, instead of getting a talkdown.

i can only conclude, that instead of blaming the implementation being incomplete in the past, the idea itself gets blamed.

while if people like kosty etc. would approach this with a clear and open mind, it would be easy to see, that actually all the past mistakes in squad mm are a great opportunity to learn what was actually missing, and get into something more of a constructive talk.

i dont care, if forum people are a minority. we did register here. and bringing squads back is basicly the only theme, that had record likes; if anyone wants to get some better reputation, all he has to do is open yet another thread about squads. it’s bizarre to watch. almost impossible to not comment on it.

Cinnamon, if you think all of us vets are wrong that most people want squads back in t5 only, why not make a poll? Here, I have saved you some time. 

 

Should 3-4 man squads be added back to T5?

 

-Yes, playing with multiple friends is awesome!
 

-No, 3-4 man squads should stay completely removed from T5. 

 

^^ By not making this poll, you will only prove that you have 0 confidence in your position on squads so I hope you will make it. 

^^ By not making this poll, you will only prove that you have 0 confidence in your position on squads so I hope you will make it. 

They say you “on internet you can be anything”, yet AcrTic chooses to be the same 15 years old kid he is in real life.

i love tourneys, but i even stopped caring about those…

if you look at competitively active corps, in the western community, all you have is the manga rambo collective, who has basicly taken all egocentric killer vets and relies on the simple tactic of smash it before it actually beats you, still has no logo, and the last rests of old corps with switching individuals, basicly just the same people in different groups.

also tourneys work coz they still carry the old t3 mentality and balance, basicly the only layer of the game which was always balanced well since it produced the right amount of statistical data.

i do understand why squads were abandoned globally, i even find it good it was extinct for a while, since it seems to remind people what things are about.

and many voices which were adamantly defending every patch in the past, have thrown the towel - some of them even completely publicly recanting their previous stance on certain things.

inbetween, i play a few citizen matches and realize, this is going to be so awesome, why even try to help here. and that while i actually really dont wanted to play a cockpit based space shooter.

or ark survival of the fittest reminds how much teamplay can be fun even if you suck.

and youtube reminds me, that actually, even if there are numerous games which do it like mix or not mix, the final tenor of the hardcore players is always: git gud. team up. l2p.

good games arent too afraid to be self aware that certain parts of their game depends on skill and experience.

i even see destros as a good try to balance strategic slow pace players into a game that depended a lot on fast reflex killer players. i even see the new things kinda in a mixed light of “maybe it evolves”.

i just dont understand, why the whole squad thing isnt taken as an opportunity, instead of getting a talkdown.

i can only conclude, that instead of blaming the implementation being incomplete in the past, the idea itself gets blamed.

while if people like kosty etc. would approach this with a clear and open mind, it would be easy to see, that actually all the past mistakes in squad mm are a great opportunity to learn what was actually missing, and get into something more of a constructive talk.

i dont care, if forum people are a minority. we did register here. and bringing squads back is basicly the only theme, that had record likes; if anyone wants to get some better reputation, all he has to do is open yet another thread about squads. it’s bizarre to watch. almost impossible to not comment on it.

When squads were heavily balanced by MM and that iteration was the closes to be balanced in regards randoms-squads, there were so much rage from same “competitive team players”. At some points Devs just reevaluated how much that tiny audience worth and just said “xxxx it” 

We already have had THIS and NOBODY was playing it.  Did you know that old Sec Con allowed 8 man wings? Did you see many of them playing?

You have no idea how hard it is to form 8 man team AND make it organised every fg day, tactics/roles/ what to do and not once a weekend. Dump 8 man together and click launch is easy, but that is no different from 8 randoms. One of the big issues with leagues is it’s exclusiveness (it was kinda the intent though, but ended up overboard imho), increasing a team size even by 1 person will have huge consequences.

funny, this kinda speaks for 4squads in t5. since you cannot make exclusive content, if there is no road there.

otherwise, leagues are fine as a future investment, as a vent for the players who want to play in a scenario, where you play the game exclusively as an organized team.

They say you “on internet you can be anything”, yet AcrTic chooses to be the same 15 years old kid he is in real life.

*g*

Oh and T3 was never “perfectly balanced”, R9s were well balanced, not the T3

When squads were heavily balanced by MM and that iteration was the closes to be balanced in regards randoms-squads, there were so much rage from same “competitive team players”. At some points Devs just reevaluated how much that tiny audience worth and just said “xxxx it”

did u even read my post

do you get, that the regulation basicly was bad, because it acted as a feedback to make squads harder and harder? do you see this correlation?

i can remember, that people started picking team mates, not because of enemy squads, but because going in with a weaker player in the MM meant there will be simply never a victory!

the basic assumption, that a squad has to be made heavier in the MM _per_se_ is the best road to never be able to balance a system.

and i am saying this, because i had to learn it the hard way, when i studied fuzzy logic and AI dev recently, and i was a preoptimizer myself. we do have in common that we are both smartiepants. comes with the job.

and FYI, every 4th game or so is still heavily one sided, also without squads, with spawn camps being quite usual just as they were when you had something visible to blame.

And, we never had a by-the-tier increasing squad system. It doesnt say, that wouldnt have been the next logical step to try.

Also, as a software engineer, can you blame me, that xxxx this is just not the solution? I mean, we all know, to be a zen coder means to be a certain degree of lazy, but overcoming is basicly the only way to grow.

Oh and T3 was never “perfectly balanced”, R9s were well balanced, not the T3

Yeah, but most of the ships are R9 or R8, and no, it was only R7 which was too weak; Every R8 ship - maybe one or two exceptions - had a certain usability in the meta, as did every GS and DLC ship, which in T3 is a lot of ships.

did u even read my post

do you get, that the regulation basicly was bad, because it acted as a feedback to make squads harder and harder? do you see this correlation?

i can remember, that people started picking team mates, not because of enemy squads, but because going in with a weaker player in the MM meant there will be simply never a victory!

the basic assumption, that a squad has to be made heavier in the MM _per_se_ is the best road to never be able to balance a system.

and FYI, every 4th game or so is still heavily one sided, also without squads, with spawn camps being quite usual just as they were when you had something visible to blame.

And, we never had a by-the-tier increasing squad system. It doesnt say, that wouldnt have been the next logical step to try.

Yeah and then other squads were picking one “Ace” team mate specifically to drop their MM weight and wipe the floor effortlessly, others would specifically use R8s/Prem ships to not be pushed against r10 randoms, where games would be balanced they chose easy road of wiping floors effortlesly. everything goes both ways, Casuals get fucked because of pros, pros get fucked because of casuals, there is always a lesser evil. Currently Lesser evil is Leagues with attempt to give an experience to pros and casuals. There is un-dividable integration with pros and Aces, Yeah you can separate pros form Aces, where pros would never get a game, but then pros and Aces get in the mixed squad, and 1 pro worth 10s of Aces and so on and so forth. One day pro playes at top of his game another day is he drunk as f, and so on and so forth. 

 

I am 100% against squads in t1-t4, removign 3-4 mans out of there was good for playerbase, not so good for tiny group of people.

You want to reserve t5 for squad play - w/e i am not against it, never was, yet whoever thinks there will not be huge consequences on the tier wide scale is simply being ignorant, and in the end your T5 squad tier will be extremely similar to leagies, and when “best of the best” will be in a queue, there will be enormous drop of activity.

 

Back in the day 4x man squad in R9s were demolishing r11s with old ship balance. You can not possibly balance top squads in T5, where even a single individual on top of his game can have worth of half of enemy team and more.

 

 

Yeah, but most of the ships are R9 or R8, and no, it was only R7 which was too weak; Every R8 ship - maybe one or two exceptions - had a certain usability in the meta, as did every GS and DLC ship, which in T3 is a lot of ships.

 

Mmmm no, 

Half of the tier was not competitive to the 2d half. You had everything, you played best ships, but that is RANDOM PvP, others do not have such luxiry. 

Tier system was - " go through pain until you get to the top of the food chain " there were nothing good about it, new system is millions times better.

WEll, but the game taught us to be top in the R9 ships. thats what came out of it. It’s not the ships, it’s that two years of flexing the Wolf-M or manouvering the Styx or rotating the Kite creates nice muscle memory.

I myself only played R9 long after you were gone from T3

Simply because RL friends who played casually, never could bring up to grind T4 and T5.

That is another auto-immune disease of the game concept, but just lets ignore it, since the progression has improved.

I know, but this is exactly what I try to tell you: knowing the MM, and all its rules and loopholes became part of squad strategy. Why?

You expect that only the best of the best will play. Well, no.

And even if, WPK, NASA and OWL had a long relationship of offering the most cool battles, simply because we grew up together.

These relationships also hit other corporations. Why should it stop? Why not encouraging this?

Kinda ask myself tho, whats the problem then, most people want R13+ 4squads to be implemented, but yeah, i am against pre-optimization and “worst case scenario balancing”, because - and thats my point - look back what it brought the game.

Also, note the added sentence in my quoted message.

People will always complain about everything.

Squads 3+ op! Ok remove the squads.

Now people complains about joining games already started, let’s remove also this function (which is one of the best things happened in a while)! Why not?

People complain also against killsquads in sunday tournament… Let’s remove wings from tournament! Let’s go solo que for tournament.

 

Bad sarcasm I know. True stories btw.

Now people complains about joining games already started,

oh game started and its a loss… damn.

yeah, well sometimes life is unfair. deal with it!

in CSS i get even a seven day ban if i ragequit. funny we even find that harsh for a scam. not that i want such things getting more tyrannic in SC, but at least, the confidence in being a game with a hardcore pvp core.

the game should teach, it doesnt matter, just go to the next one. it will be epic.

bring your friends. team up! rule. get stomped.

just play.

not grind next only.

less delays, less timers, better social interaction, fluid rewards, thats optimization.

thats fun.