Since squad system was moved to the Leagues, we’re always looking for the way to put it back somehow. It was removed because squades were to OP, they just crushing everything and everyone in PvP, and it makes lonely pilots (and there’re a lot of them everywhere, even in high tiers) completely impossible to win any match. To make two different MM systems mean to divide the whole player base. One of them would be much smaller that other, unfortunetly.
Since squad system was moved to the Leagues, we’re always looking for the way to put it back somehow. It was removed because squades were to OP, they just crushing everything and everyone in PvP, and it makes lonely pilots (and there’re a lot of them everywhere, even in high tiers) completely impossible to win any match. To make two different MM systems mean to divide the whole player base. One of them would be much smaller that other, unfortunetly.
I understand the struggle. Maybe make a competition for coming up with the best team play game mode variants.
Since squad system was moved to the Leagues, we’re always looking for the way to put it back somehow. It was removed because squades were to OP, they just crushing everything and everyone in PvP, and it makes lonely pilots (and there’re a lot of them everywhere, even in high tiers) completely impossible to win any match. To make two different MM systems mean to divide the whole player base. One of them would be much smaller that other, unfortunetly.
And a squad consisting of destroyer + Brokk engi is not OP? How is it that you allow certain type of OP:ness?
And it’s more legit to play and be OP in Leagues, getting crushed by elite ru teams? Because you know, that would not be a problem if the game mode was fun and popular, aka there would be more teams in queue, and more variation regarding who you will play against. You can’t “solve” the “squad-OP-problem” like that, and saying it’s “solved” and fair - because the ones benefitting from this are the absolute elite teams - maybe. Oh wait, after the release of r11 destroyers, maybe it’s more “fun” and dynamic now.
You opened a mode that offers no real challenge to a few, and too much of it for the rest. That’s fair right?
There needs to be a general releasing of squad restriction at higher ranks, NEEDS to be. Not just corp v corp.
Playing for brokk parts in R13. One single R11 dess on enemy team swings the match in their favour even if its a bad player is who flying it. Thats too OP.
Tournament in R7-9. 6-8 dess camp it out with each other in more than half the games. Push in last two min with all dess wins the game v randoms or even moderate team. Thats too OP.
Ever seen a brokk healing a dess cap? Cant challenge the DPS or the tank nor can u hide. Just wanders up and kills everyone. Thats too OP.
3 years of fast spin inty with all direction firing. Thats too OP. ‘fixed’
Squads would keep much of this in check.
‘Pros’ stomping around old T3 as it was easy to squad and be OP. Actually fixed with new rank system, never top rank till you squadding with R15s. No remove squads entirely.
Leagues will never be a substitute for squads in pvp, there is no random element that make squads really fun to play. Same teammates, game mode, maps, tactics, times and opponents. The only thing to make them better would be to release so many league restrictions as to make them indifferent to actual squadding, so what would be the point.
I am genuinely suprised at the resistance to this as leagues are not popular at all, if they are then there cannot be much in the way of consistant teamwork going on between the lower leaderboard teams. Otherwise the OWL team would have been moved down from joint 7-8 place despite not playing a single league game in over a month. So we that good without having to even login?
And it’s more legit to play and be OP in Leagues, getting crushed by elite ru teams? …because the ones benefitting from this are the absolute elite teams
Just like the fake dread attack situation. Where winning does not equal success. Its our party and you are not invited. Another means to squad and have fun denied.
Since squad system was moved to the Leagues, we’re always looking for the way to put it back somehow. It was removed because squades were to OP, they just crushing everything and everyone in PvP, and it makes lonely pilots (and there’re a lot of them everywhere, even in high tiers) completely impossible to win any match. To make two different MM systems mean to divide the whole player base. One of them would be much smaller that other, unfortunetly.
Blatantly, blatantly untrue.
I have always played the majority of my games solo and I won plenty of times during the Age of Squads. The better team wins, this is always true. The problem, however, is that oftentimes in high tiers the matches were 4v4 with a killsquad on one side and vegetables on the other. In T3, where 12v12 or even 15v15 was more common, the power of the squads were diluted somewhat because A) sheer numbers could overwhelm them and B) there was a higher chance of a killsquad on both sides to balance.
All you are doing by removing squads is making it harder and harder to ever actually fix the problem, because the longer you wait, the less players there are with any experience of facing and countering organised play. That has always been the problem - solo players not learning teamwork. Your solution was to ban teamwork, rather than teach it. You were flat out wrong to do that.
All you are doing by removing squads is making it harder and harder to ever actually fix the problem, because the longer you wait, the less players there are with any experience of facing and countering organised play. That has always been the problem - solo players not learning teamwork. Your solution was to ban teamwork, rather than teach it. You were flat out wrong to do that.
Rapturous agreement.
Its my belief that dess only makes this problem worse. Single player in dess does not need to work with thier team anymore. It encourages soloplay, them being useful or not. This has never been true of any ship class till now.
A half decent squad would slap that out of them very quickly.
Since squad system was moved to the Leagues, we’re always looking for the way to put it back somehow. It was removed because squades were to OP, they just crushing everything and everyone in PvP, and it makes lonely pilots (and there’re a lot of them everywhere, even in high tiers) completely impossible to win any match. To make two different MM systems mean to divide the whole player base. One of them would be much smaller that other, unfortunetly.
While I agree with you, can we limit squad to only for people with below certain win rate and/or battles? For example, people with below 0.8 win rate and less than 1000 battles should be allowed to squad with another with similar status to prompt teamwork. The biggest issue now days is almost all pug are solo players that does not work like a team, what’s the point of playing a multiplayer game that only think and act for yourself…
Since squad system was moved to the Leagues, we’re always looking for the way to put it back somehow. It was removed because squades were to OP, they just crushing everything and everyone in PvP, and it makes lonely pilots (and there’re a lot of them everywhere, even in high tiers) completely impossible to win any match. To make two different MM systems mean to divide the whole player base. One of them would be much smaller that other, unfortunetly.
"SQUADS WERE TOO OP"
Wait, are you really self convinced here? Welcome in the real world, welcome in PvP, Multiplayer games. This is exactly like it for all games, people in the same corp / squad with a voice system will have advantages. How people will learn it and learn to have better skills if YOU encourage them to stay alone in a multiplayer game. We walk on the head here, you really don’t have any clue of how multiplayer game are working. Learn it, World of Tanks, War Thunder, Armored Warfare, World of Warship, Dreadnought and all the MOBA games have squadron / platoon / group of 3 / 4 in random games. Stop listening to all the alone player who wants to play a multiplayer game like console game with no team, no friends. Corporations and group should be at some point what people should try to find out. Because alone, you don’t have the same chances. All others editors / games know it, why you don’t?
What’s the next step? Find out to force people on the same vocal to not be on the same match ?
I’ll find a solution for you. Let’s say that the learning curve will be to T1 to T2 and then no squad here are allowed. Then T3 to T4 limit the squad to 3 and yet for T5 to 4. Then here we will have the way to play in team which is probably what want all your player base who plays since 2013… If of sure you consider our opinion more than the random player that brought you money.
Not to be hipster or anything but i think i was the first person to complain about the removal squads as soon as the patch came out
[http://forum.star-conflict.com/index.php?showtopic=28720](< base_url >/index.php?showtopic=28720)
the point is : it got little attention and the only reply i got back then was “Thank you for feedback. We have improved dreads”
And it’s a long time ago… i would just like to see actual changes and improvements being made which directly focuses on what all the players here are asking.
“we are working on it” “we will think about this, it’s tricky” “thank you for the suggestions”
So many people have contributed with polls, suggestions, systems, ideas ONLY concerning “squads” (multiplayer coop, 4 people pvp, 24/7)
I’ve read contributions containing everything from game mechanics, matchmaker, user archetypes, to actual buttons and gamemode examples
Good contributions. Some of them proffessional-grade. but i don’t see them anywhere in the actual game.
I think we would just like to see the actual work. And see the sum of hundreds of suggestions to squads solutions are being tested or weighed in actual life.
Since squad system was moved to the Leagues, we’re always looking for the way to put it back somehow. It was removed because squades were to OP, they just crushing everything and everyone in PvP, and it makes lonely pilots (and there’re a lot of them everywhere, even in high tiers) completely impossible to win any match. To make two different MM systems mean to divide the whole player base. One of them would be much smaller that other, unfortunetly.
so wait. squads were op. which is true if squads contained four good people.
but generally, this has been invented as a fact, before it was proven, and the MM was trying to compensate for it in the past, as i can still remember the posts about that.
which in the end made squadding harder, which meant, only good players wanted to squad, and if - then only with good players.
You basicly had an assumption, three years ago, about squads having an upside, because they play together. This assuption was based on the observation of alpha ru players kicking the *** out of new international players, as they were more used to play the game as team.
Also, to this assumption was paired that again in international US/EU population, some corps started to gather competetively thinking individuals, increasing skill in play.
You basicly made your own prophecy, and now the numbers show it, because you started to tweak into that direction.
Maybe I try to illustrate it with a bit of history:
let me recap how reality looked in T3 shortly before we started to encourage people to move to T5:
-
for several hours, squads fight along.
-
along comes one squad of seasoned players, starts beating up everyone with cohesive teamplay and fully pimped out ships.
here two scenarios were born usually:
-
another corp has some players soloing who know this enemy. a squad is formed.
-
usually here the best ever star conflict games happened, as squads clashed against each other, in several games, and this was the best way for solo players to learn to play as team, if they had no such corp around them.
this is how i and all my mates learned to play. of course this only works if the balance isnt completely screwing you, and the respawn mechanic kinda favoured the “go to their spawn tactic” which i always found a cowards move (if done on purpose).
- no other squad has the potential to beat them, so they dissolve, or move to lower tiers, or wait and watch those players if they are in game, until the queue is “empty”.
this is the scenario you tried to fix.
what happened?
what happened was, that squad which was not OP dissolved, because it could not win games against a squad they could not handle.
there is no incentive to squad up. it feels much safer to solo.
in fact, you were punished to be in a squad, not just by the MM, but also by life, since there is always a bigger fish.
while vets continued to develop, for many the entry into squadding became sour, and after a few months of “hooray T3 has no vets” came “T3 has no interesting games”.
there was also 2a.
2a. random pub wins. enough soloers were in the population, so that even a good squad did not win all games, and the “random” team on the other side became stronger, while the squad in question had to carry weaker pubs.
2a was also awesome, but usually it stayed following:
2b. the game ends up in non stop 4v4 or 5v5 vs. that squad, while soloers have 12v12 games separately. slowly each squad who wanted to queue, stops doing it.
2c. the squad waits in queue, finds no one, not even in global, goes different tier. things could get worse or better.
since there is no way of “finding each other”, this is usually the time people left the game since they got frustrated.
what did we do therefore?
-
tiers were abandoned, so that there are no endgames anymore, everything should point to t5 as endgame.
-
if you were endgame interested, interested to play vs. hardcore players, you tried to get into t5.
-
t2 and t1 speed was increased, with faster progression to t3.
-
the t3 gauntlet, once the main drive of the game, where you had to fight vs. seasoned squads, or sometimes completely new players, was dissolved. even, if t3 endgame was very well documented back then in the forums, and t3 ships never allowed fits which are unbeatable.
you have to decide at some point: where does the game tell you: now its getting harder. this content is only for you, if you want to be competitive. you are reaching the end of the line.
until t5, you could try to compensate lack of skills with having better ships than the population you play with, while your overall ELO is low.
in t5 this advantage ceises to exist, which is why team players are interested in it.
but you have to do this gradually. you cant expect putting up exclusive 5v5 or 4v4 games, and think this is what everyone wanted.
and you have to be self aware as a game developer, that you _Teach_ the game, this includes, that it is a team game. Therefore you should stop thinking as “a squad is OP”, instead say it like it is: a squad can tip the balance of the teams. Squads are awesome. You should squad up. AND REWARD IT.
After all, no matter if one side has a squad or not, its still a team, and the goal is, that players learn how to win as a team.
TL;DR:
It is the mindset of the teacher that has to change, if most of the students fail.
At a certain point, it just shows you can’t teach your content well enough.
Since squad system was moved to the Leagues, we’re always looking for the way to put it back somehow. It was removed because squades were to OP, they just crushing everything and everyone in PvP, and it makes lonely pilots (and there’re a lot of them everywhere, even in high tiers) completely impossible to win any match. To make two different MM systems mean to divide the whole player base. One of them would be much smaller that other, unfortunetly.
not to say I told you so, but if you had a dollar for the amount of people who think you’re wrong, you could buy some better servers and then more players would come back. And it would be an investment too because those new players would think you’re wrong too!
Leagues blows harder than a hungry cannibal. Server regions suck, not enough people in queue, super elite rus teams with their 20 ping vs my 230 ping is just not fair. Even Russians think leagues suck! I was on the Russian forums the other day and posted a link to my suggestion, ruskies liked it. Let me sum something up cinnamon, there are a few devs who make the game and have hardly any experience playing it who think they are right vs almost the entire group of veterans and a bunch of n00bs who ACTUALLY play the game. I have 7k+ battles and I have yet to see a developer in pvp. You may be the pros at making the game, but at playing it, you’re n00bies. No offense intended, just callin’ it how I see it.
Also, have you guys considered what this does to corporations? WPK, ESB, and DNO, some of the top corporations of the game have died off because of taking out squads. Trying to recruit people to RadiX without 4 man squads makes things harder too. People use to join us just because of how good our squads were but now, the only point is rep and chilling with us.
You say squads are OP, but squads are not the problem, skill is the problem. I can take on 4 n00bs by myself with my full purple t5 spark. Am I OP? Are you going to ban me from the game??
in many other games, being competitive is not hidden. you get only grins by the community, if you start to complain about balance early on, if you bypass the learning period and get rekt in a more mature competitive arena.
i cant expect to win the chess tournament, just coz i loved playing it with my grandma, not even the fun one in school!
if you want to be proud of leagues and want players to “want to be able to fly in leagues” you have to present your endgame with a bit more of self esteem imho. Offer enticement to try to do it together, but not immediately completely on your own.
Thats a lot of stress!
having no 4 squads in t3 area (r9) is okay, its how the game evolved. but having no squads in T5 - not even if it is unfair and defunct and causes players to complain - will never reach that feeling, that someone in R15 ships might be seasoned, and play on a level trying to compete harder and harder, and losing against such an enemy from time to time is not always a bad thing.
there is an austrian/german proverb: it depends, how loud you shout into the woods, what the answer will sound like.
this is targeting your audience, and its evident, there is an audience which desires squads as a system. even if we dont use it all day. there is really no reason to abandon it in t5.
also, if someone leaves the game in t5 coz of squads, well, is that really a problem?
what did he expect, that synergizing ships is going to be a solo game in pvp until the end?
See, I still feel strongly that T3 and up need squads. From leagues to Dreadnoughts, there’s a lot of endgame content in T3, so players need to be learning teamwork there.
-
There should be nor 3-4 man squads anywhere except for T5
-
If 3-4 man squads will ever come out in T5, T5 will quickly reduce to squads vs squads, and most of soloers will drop down to r10-r12
-
They you get gradually fall of activity of not so “pro squads” leaving a handful of people playing squads spread over 24 hours
-
End of t5
-
All the soloers go back to t5
-
repeat from #2
Giving T5 easier access to resources would fix that.
I would also suggest two changes for returning squads.
- If one member of a 3-4 squad qualifies for a rare resource, the whole squad qualifies.
Ex: If one player in a 4 man squad flies a max synergy R8 ship, all four can get neodium loot drops.
- 3-4 man squads get 1 loot attempt if they lose (2 for licence holders).
There should be nor 3-4 man squads anywhere except for T5
If 3-4 man squads will ever come out in T5, T5 will quickly reduce to squads vs squads, and most of soloers will drop down to r10-r12
They you get gradually fall of activity of not so “pro squads” leaving a handful of people playing squads spread over 24 hours
End of t5
All the soloers go back to t5
repeat from #2
not necessarily, you can still win solo, mm should favor “n00b” squads somewhat.
There should be nor 3-4 man squads anywhere except for T5
If 3-4 man squads will ever come out in T5, T5 will quickly reduce to squads vs squads, and most of soloers will drop down to r10-r12
They you get gradually fall of activity of not so “pro squads” leaving a handful of people playing squads spread over 24 hours
End of t5
All the soloers go back to t5
repeat from #2
It’s sad, but it’s true.
Giving T5 easier access to resources would fix that.
I fear, this only get more random players to get crushed and burned by squads. Encouraging more squads and less random players.
not necessarily, you can still win solo, mm should favor “n00b” squads somewhat.
Are you ok giving squads players some disadvantages?
Are you ok
He is not ok in general, but that is besides the point 
He is not ok in general, but that is besides the point
Last weekend i suggested in other post to give some [disadvantages](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/30277-4-man-squads-t5-only/)to squads, and i can’t believe someone thinks the same
@Kosty nice one but get back on track. Thing is ppl want squads, and they should implement them… That’s all there is to it. I don’t belive that squads would remove players from T5, Don’t see the reason for it. If you think that losing will get them to T3 what will happen when all those vet players drop down & start farming there? Because playing 4 vs 4 will get old real soon.