Wobble in ship caused by ping

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1

Ive only seen one post talking about it ([http://forum.star-conflict.com/index.php?/topic/21207-wobble-in-ships/](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/21207-wobble-in-ships/)) and it did not satisfy me, so ill put my perspective:

 

The mechanics of the game dealing with ping seems bad (with higher ping you have to extra lead and “guess” where the target is going to be, and you have to make turns before to correctly drive the ship), but its better than older shooter games had (like leading to the air with instant proyectiles and only having a hit indicator that tells you if you aimed well or not…im thinking in Battlefield 2412, Gunz, Counter Strike, Crysis 1 (not totally sure about this one), etc.). I think i would prefer the latest mechanics (used by Planetside 2 or Tribes: ascend) wich bases all the client information and sends it to the server (you hit what you saw you hit in your screen and have no delay in response). Draw back is that higher ping players take more time to “deal damage”, but damage is dealt, and as you are not seing the game in real time, situations like dodging proyectiles or crashing another player will not be congruent to whats going on in your screen. In little words, the last system favors player input (simulating playing in local area network: without ping) in exchange for demanding the understanding that things are not truly where you see them at that moment (wich mostly has an impact when dodgin enemy fire). However, this system makes proyectile and ship position to be incongruous with recieved client information (means you will see yourself getting damaged by proyectiles that did not hit you) and i respect the SC

 

Any way, im still cool with the system Star Conflict has to deal ping, but theres something that should just not happen: ship wobble; high ping causes a ship to keep turning after the mouse is centered. That affects heavily while aiming and driving your ship (the higher the ping and turn rate, the more it looses control). I remember several moments in wich i made a turn, centered the mouse, and the interceptor kept turning around the crosshair for more than 30 seconds without any extra imput (ping: about 300). My best solution is to activate free aim, let go, activate it again to regain control. For a cov op it makes really hard to succesfully hit a standing frigate with plasma arc with 250+ ping (you can wait the ship to stop “wobbleing” and get killed by sure or deal less than 40% plasma arc dmg), and impossible to fully hit a frigate dodging it.

The mechanics cant solve the ping itself, but the way it handles it is ok, except for the wobble in ships wich i dont understand why it happens with high ping (i believe ship compensantion is controlled by the server, wich should not happen). One thing is that your ship moves with delay from input, another is that it keeps moving long after input has ceased. So, i perfectly believe that SC team can solve this “late movement compensation” and only have a delayed input.

PD: I hope what i wrote is understandable xD
PD 2: a video would be very ilustrative, but im pretty sure everyone knows what im talking about.

2

i don’t

 

I never had to compensate the lead and i don’t understand your wobble.

 

But that may well be because i have a very good internet.

3

When you have high ping your ship wobbles uncontrollably, twisting and turning in directions you don’t want your ship to face. It becomes more noticeable on interceptors or fighters with high rotation.

4

Reduce pitch stat to minimise wobble. Usually (with no package loss), a pitch stat of less than 100 is playable up to 400 ping

5

high ping usually just lets you feel micromovements, which are even present in a mouse you dont touch, and lerps between floating point differences; reducing your speed helps to compensate for the wobble; high ping (300+) usually needs a bit of precognition with missiles, and is way better with fighters and frigates only.

 

using the wobble to your advantage can help you create escape manouvers you never thought of before :smiley:

 

I am not sure if the OP is sure about all the details of tricks involved into such systems, but it reads as if you got a fair idea. there were other “techy” people already who wrote similar things like “this could be done better”, but i wasn’t always sure if they really really really knew what they were talking about. one of them being the most prominent of them one day decided he even knew how to accelerate light, since he was sure, real time action games should be possible in mmo style, which they arent and went all havoc over the forums. so the topic isnt entirely new.

 

well i do understand the network magic or at least most of it. and in the end, everything comes at a price. i rather keep enjoying the fast paced action, than having limitations in the whole system or deal with cheaters.

i suspect some of our weapons do have precognition built in, e.g. the positron; so yes, i started to equip 2 ships per deck, which can handle lag better than others. in the end, i am astonished, that i even had dogfights against people with 400-600 pings like kine, who learned to compensate for this.

 

don’t forget that creating “real time engines” is in reality smokes and mirrors. there is a certain limit, where such games become “unfair” because of their magic. SC does a good job still being fairly competitive and keeping a fast packet engine with server side authority.

 

that being said, i think, you are right, some kind of compensation for the wobblyness might be possible in some way, and as the aiming help, such measures could be “opt in” for players, or just kick in at high ping / packet loss scenarios. especially if you try to stop the ship and move slowly, ceptors still tend to instawobble.

 

i would even live with pressing a key for “keeping a straight trajectory”, which people have to bind for themselves, which sends packets to the server trying to “stabilize” your trajectory over a few secs.

 

well and then there is hope in quantum teleportation and 0ping quantum networking… :smiley:

6

What about Source engine [1] networking? Using prediction and such, so that the client would have a smooth experience.

 

[1] https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking

7

this makes small ships unplayable in high ping servers

8

this makes small ships unplayable in high ping servers

No. Definitely playable. Wobbling around at high speed with turn keys and rotate keys allows you almost never be hit with projectiles. You serve a purpose distracting the enemy team. If you have learned to compensate then you can aim and hit targets.

9

No. Definitely playable. Wobbling around at high speed with turn keys and rotate keys allows you almost never be hit with projectiles. You serve a purpose distracting the enemy team. If you have learned to compensate then you can aim and hit targets.

 

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10

Moon Breakers worked like this. You’d unload on another player and about a second later they’d asplode. Also crashing was hilarious. You impact, bounce way far away, then asplode. XD

11

source prediction works nice for weapon hits, however wobbling comes from movement, and that’s a bit harder.

 

there is some prediction going on, since there are occasional lerps you can see if another ship is synced; prediction has limits, especially if things move fast. i also think, some weapons like positrons do work with lag compensation.

 

client side control mechanics have also drawbacks, needless to say, e.g. in wow you could completely circumvent falling damage, since the Z layer was handled client side, so if the client didnt say you got fall damage, you didn’t; even worse, you could cheat by running in the air, since the client had complete control over Z coordinates.

 

I find SC pretty decent in this regard. without any introspection into the actual mechanics its hard to say anyway, if they can compensate better than they already do. rule of thumb is however, if you make something smoother, something else has to pay the price. :slight_smile:

12

No. Definitely playable. Wobbling around at high speed with turn keys and rotate keys allows you almost never be hit with projectiles.

 

Would rather dodge with precision than have some random uncontrollable wobble. When I try to fly in a straight line with 185 rotation my ship looks like it is doing the macarena

13

well and then there is hope in quantum teleportation and 0ping quantum networking… :smiley:

hahahahahah.

Nice comment :wink:

The keybind for straight trajectory sounds like a temporary solution :stuck_out_tongue:

I dont understand what do you mean with the positron “precognition”.

Hack is something that could happen with client side handling. But if its very limitated i believe it should cause any problem (my unexpert guess). By the way, Planetside 2 works pretty well with a lot of info controlled by the client and theres no hacking (I had the luck to see a hacker by myself once, but about that rare occasion ive never seen hacking or someone complaining about it)…maybe is because they have a huge staff of people fully compromised inside the game team.

 

What about Source engine [1] networking? Using prediction and such, so that the client would have a smooth experience.

 

[1] https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking

I think is so much easier thant that. Have you tried the expert flying mode? it has no wobble, however, aiming (and for me driving as well) gets so much difficult because you get the kick (according to your ping) after each move. That mode stops the “after touch” movement when you center the mouse after a turn: its just a delay in response, wich is cool; that same thing could be aplied to simple flying mode in wich the only difference is that the camera doesnt move steadily with the front of your ship. Why does simple and expert flying mode have different ship behaviour considering the **“only”** change is the camera?

For the persons who dont know for sure what im talking about, i took a little time to search for a video about the wobble and i had luck to find a very ilustrative one. In this case the player zumerang47 has a lot of ping and in some occasions a little loss:

Please notice the position of the mouse (specially when its steady) and the movement of the ship. Enjoy :smiley:

14

interesting, so expert mode has no wobble? that means my keybind could be simply switching to expert for a few secs :smiley:

But that does raise the question if it has to do with the quaternion math used for the controls;

 

that video is a quite old, that seems 0.6 or even older. but i think we all know the wobbling. I never had it this severe tho, even if i play on asian servers with 400 ping; So I am not sure, if this is still like this. The worst wobble is of course if I have ping spikes.

 

Well, anyway, I do think, you have a valid point, that this could be adressed - especially if expert mode has no wobble, which is new to me personally, then I conclude there is hope for a technical solution.

 

The cheater thing, and Planetside2 are different topics tho.

PS2 isn’t exactly the game I would call a priority target for cheaters. And I personally do not like their controls, even if it is pretty awesome to have almost the feeling of an MMO and a shooter combined. Lag in PS2 can also be pretty bad for the experience, too. But I am curious whether H1Z1 will bring that engine more into the attention of cheaters, because the gameplay is simply more individualistic and competitive. And the problem begins once the cheats start to proliferate because of a demand, not just if the engine is vulnerable. However I never respected the dark side of the force, so my view on that is quite limited; I only know it from a technical point of view.

Arma2 e.g. is extremely easy to cheat, and everyone who has ever scripted for that game actually knows that after 5 minutes. But it only became a major problem after dayZ’s success, where cheats became widely accessible, simply because of the gameplay of dayZ.

I just hate games, where it’s too easy because of design decisions in the engine, like no server side authority.

The mentioned WoW cheats you would not have witnessed much on the official servers either I guess, it’s just one of those well documented examples in network programming I know of; also WoW was more vulnerable, since the protocol was reverse engineered already in the time of beta. It would not make much sense in PS2 or SC to run private servers anyway :slight_smile: kinda defeats the purpose.

And it goes without telling, that someone who spends time developing a hack for any game, usually will not do all the basic work before that himself, and instead abuse knowledge of others; if you are that talented, you usually could use that time for way more productive work or even write your own games. Maybe an insult, but people who write such BS and release it are usually trying to show off, in my opinion; Never had respect for that.

15

I wobble heavily on intys with over 200ping and on high rotation fighters with over 300 :frowning:

Could never use arc because I wobble around and never get less than 200 except on SA server

16

I learned to play with wobble too. This is probably why I stick to fighter class ship and avoid interceptor play unless I am in a US server. However, that ‘‘wobble’’ like you said is present in any network game when you have a high ping, it eventually get noticeable.

17

I learned to play with wobble too. This is probably why I stick to fighter class ship and avoid interceptor play unless I am in a US server. However, that ‘‘wobble’’ like you said is present in any network game when you have a high ping, it eventually get noticeable.

where I am, i’m fairly lucky. Russia servers are about 100 ping and rarely cause issue, europe is 34 ping constantly. Max packet loss when the router is working properly has been 5% on rus server. My worst nightmare is the South Asia servers. 500-700 ping, almost constant 10% loss. Occasionally 70% or more for 10 seconds or so and i either come back dead or get disconnected.

18

I’m just going to put it simply:

 

Interceptors:

-100 ping, no wobble

-200 ping, ship is slightly slower to respond to turns

-300 ping, slight wobble

-400 ping, drunk flying

 

Fighters:

-100 ping, no wobble

-200 ping, slight wobble after rotations

-300 ping, ship requires compensation for wobbles after turning

-400 ping, drunk flying

 

Frigates:

-100 ping, no wobble

-200 ping, slightly slower turns

-300 ping, much slower rotation response

-400 ping, drunk flying                                                                                        -and when this happens, its hilarious

 

 

A few tips to stop the wild rotation after it has begun:

-Hold reverse on afterburners for a second to attempt to level the ship

-Hold Ctrl whilst reverse afterburning (as Ctrl is freelook, it locks the ships aim in one spot, allowing for it to level out)

-Attempt to compensate via moving the ship in the opposite direction of the rotation whilst moving (only works in pings from 500-600)

19

I’m just going to put it simply:

 

Interceptors:

-100 ping, no wobble

-200 ping, ship is slightly slower to respond to turns

-300 ping, slight wobble

-400 ping, drunk flying

 

Fighters:

-100 ping, no wobble

-200 ping, slight wobble after rotations

-300 ping, ship requires compensation for wobbles after turning

-400 ping, drunk flying

 

Frigates:

-100 ping, no wobble

-200 ping, slightly slower turns

-300 ping, much slower rotation response

-400 ping, drunk flying                                                                                        -and when this happens, its hilarious

 

 

A few tips to stop the wild rotation after it has begun:

-Hold reverse on afterburners for a second to attempt to level the ship

-Hold Ctrl whilst reverse afterburning (as Ctrl is freelook, it locks the ships aim in one spot, allowing for it to level out)

-Attempt to compensate via moving the ship in the opposite direction of the rotation whilst moving (only works in pings from 500-600)

my ship is like tillo, it feels a w̶i̶g̶g̶l̶e̶    wobble coming on. 

20

worst nightmare is having any king of ping 90+ in an intie designed for rapid turning. Nope, nope, nope.