The case for squads in PvP.

this mystical solution that allows people to squad with friends and training corps, but also protects them from ESB does not exist.

It could, in part. If there are enough squads they can theoretically be balanced. And more squads can be achieved by the 2v0 rule we had for a short while.

 

Last I remember squads were held back by the squad vs squad rule (which isn’t a bad rule in itself). Generally people wouldn’t make squad at all expecting there to be no opposing squad to fight - This led to a stagnant squad queue that would only match when someone finally decides to give it a shot and get matched with the only other squad if there’s one… and they would likely meet a strong squad and stop queueing. However, sometimes we had enough squads to go around which gives MM the opportunity to balance squads

 

I believe squad balancing was or still is part of the weekly tournament. We almost fought the strongest teams

 

If people could start with no squads i.e. 2v0, we could overcome the problem I mentioned above. And seeing a 2-man squad someone is bound to make a squad of their own, perhaps a 3 man squad. This will lead to progressively larger squads in big numbers

No, this thread is about bringing squads back. Just putting them solely in T5 will only give the Devs more evidence that squads are bad.

This is about dispelling the lies and misinformation that is being spread,

 

Maybe !?

 

 

T5 is dominated by the kind of players the Devs insist only want squads so they can farm new players. As such, putting squads back in T5 alone will mean a disproportionate number of squads are composed of killteams, which in turn will then be used by the Devs as evidence that they need to take squads away again.

Please, I do not intend to be rude or insult you: Please make this clear:: may it be that you fear to become pray for T5 kill teams – like me fear to be pray for your level vet / pro players in T3-5, already?

 

 

Putting squads back at all levels allows the other kinds of squads to come forward as well. Yes, T5 will be a killsquad haven, but you’ll get much more social squads and training flights in T3, and even more if you open T1 and T2 up to squadding.

You seem to have answered that point already and said: there is “no solution” to that, if I am not mistaken. I do not understand.

may it be that you fear to become pray for T5 kill teams – like me fear to be pray for your level vet / pro players in T3-5, already?

*prey

 

And no, if you read it right he says putting squads exclusively in t5 will mean most of the squads will comprise of vets which will skew the statistics and strengthen the nonsensical notion that all squads are strong.

 

Squads are vital at all game levels. Not everyone joins as a lone wolf. I was invited here by friends and only stuck around because I could play with them and they showed me the ropes

@ntboble and avarshina

dont forget, most of the squad posts have no problems of only having squads in lategame

Roger that :fed012:

 

 

this is why it would be wise to start with r9+ just to have t4 for more casual squads, t5 for more serious squads

its hard to start to squad. it was totally not hard to start to squad when most of us started. if you had tons of squads in the queue, it didnt matter that one game was too hard. you met others in the next game. also, sometimes you had an experienced squad, an unexperienced squad vs. 2 mediocre squads, etc. which produces really interesting results.

Yes, that are real interesting points you making, and I mean it! I think about your points, its interesting and plausible. There seem to be natural processes (with standard squading) of sorting out to upper tiers, some of even you guys do not like!?

 

May I ask? If this is/was so, doesn’t it require to have a steady growth of this game ( that is: new players coming in – also above the t3 brink) to get a situation again that is like- as you say - “when most of us started”. Will this game ever get back to a situation alike? Maybe with players that started in a time of destroyers and do not know about ‘glory old times’? Maybe that is what devs try to accomplish a broader player base by making this game attractive to more sorts of gamers? Think about it!

 

 

the larger a battle is, the less a squad does everything and becomes more the core of your team, often also providing logistics (engi, command), its still just max 4 players who play together, nothing more, nothing less.

it still depends on the TEAM to win.

problem with squads below R15 is only, that they might have better ships than the average, but in R15 queue that should not be the case over long periods of time.

Also, this would entice more leagues aswell. atm. there is no stepping stone into leagues.

 

Reasonable interesting points, again!

It could, in part. If there are enough squads they can theoretically be balanced. And more squads can be achieved by the 2v0 rule we had for a short while.

 

Last I remember squads were held back by the squad vs squad rule (which isn’t a bad rule in itself)

I believe squad balancing was or still is part of the weekly tournament. We almost fought the strongest teams

 

If people could start with no squads i.e. 2v0, we could overcome the problem I mentioned above. And seeing a 2-man squad someone is bound to make a squad of their own, perhaps a 3 man squad. This will lead to progressively larger squads in big numbers

 

Hmm! Interesting! Were there exclusive scheduled times for squad based PvP in older times (like Monday + Wednesday @ 19GMT + 01GMT, what is implemented for +50% credits and synergy bonus atm) ?

* How does this 2v0 rule function (I am not familiar with this rule), what does it accomplish?

* 2-man squad → to 3-man squad : do you speak of a cap at 3-man squads or of a progression 2man > 3man > 4man … ?

I am not sure to get all your arguments, but me think: would it be possible (theoretically) to coalesce squad-PvP with sector conquest, open space, and corporations? Maybe even no scheduled times any longer for sector conquest?

I mean to say, corps would defend their sectors with squads against other squads @ scheduled times, and may can hire good players/squads for defense etc?? This would leave the PvP as the devs intend it to be atm and would open a vector for to direct squad-PvP energy and dedication to? I am unsure.

Overall: Do you have a reasonable solution how to persuade the game developers/designers to give squads to PvP back again, you did not already hint so far? g4borg did bring some interesting points, too, especially in regard to big team battles (12vs12) and cap of squad at 2 to 4-man? ( I like to understand more.)

srsly I don’t know what is the problem. I just want battles like wpk/nasa/whatever else corp VS esb/owl/whatever else to happen again. Those were massive battles you might have ended down in the rating, but it forced the player to play in squads as well. 

I’d like to see those battles again as well, but first we need the groundwork. We need those corps to be able to develop the player base and then recruit the talent, which will then let us have epic clashes once more.

sorry but almost every corp has squad groundbase, even without 4man killsquads. Specops for instance. Dreads (ok maybe they are dead a bit). And for example corps I have looked at after a LONG xxxx time (ie CzR, BoJ etc.) have great squad groundbase. If the squads would get introduced back they would have teamed up instantly. If this idea hits, then T5 and T3 will be flooded with squads (I love it).

Hmm! Interesting! Were there exclusive scheduled times for squad based PvP in older times (like Monday + Wednesday @ 19GMT + 01GMT, what is implemented for +50% credits and synergy bonus atm) ?

* How does this 2v0 rule function (I am not familiar with this rule), what does it accomplish?

* 2-man squad → to 3-man squad : do you speak of a cap at 3-man squads or of a progression 2man > 3man > 4man … ?

 

Unlike leagues and all these new modes squads in skirmish could happen at all times. You just make a squad and queue! simple, fast, fun.

 

2v0 meaning 2-man do not need to wait for another squad to be in queue. 2-man can fight random teams (and like g4borg mentioned they don’t make a big difference in large matches)

 

progression of squad sizes. squad leads to squads which leads to bigger squads (without fear of waiting in queue forever)

May I ask? If this is/was so, doesn’t it require to have a steady growth of this game ( that is: new players coming in – also above the t3 brink) to get a situation again that is like- as you say - “when most of us started”. Will this game ever get back to a situation alike? Maybe with players that started in a time of destroyers and do not know about ‘glory old times’? Maybe that is what devs try to accomplish a broader player base by making this game attractive to more sorts of gamers? Think about it!

 

 

I am well aware, that those times do not come back. But I was also part of the process how it was changed.

I also came into a game, that had an older playerbase from the alpha. There are always generations. But this should continue. Atm. its a widening gap.

 

But this has nothing to do with squads. You are talking about players who begin to play. They are not in T4&T5 immediately, nor should they be.

There is now a way bigger “development road” for the player, to learn roles and classes and gameplay. 

 

 

Squads have to do with social interaction primarily. If you have friends, and you can play together with them, in the same game, it increases your interest in the game. Modern games all try to increase the multiplayer experience. Squads are getting bigger. 4 people is usually the average, 5 occasionally like in BF series. more than that still doesnt work out, except in organized play (tourneys, special events, etc.) and usually, if you have 5 people, you can still split to 2 and 3.

Recently, SotF tried 6 player squads, but the games are too long for that mode; still, on special events and custom servers you can go up to 100v100.

 

I am not against squads in lower tiers, i am just rather for squads in higher tiers. And I can understand, that the game has changed, that today, not T3, but T5 is the endgame tier. When we started, you only had to get to T3, anything above that, even as it existed, was not important until the first Sec Cons started, and even after that, it was more or less T5=Sec Con.

Pulling away vets from lower tiers had positive and negative effects.

 

And to make my emotions and motivations about this clear:

 

SC started liberal in these regards. It represents very much a game, that, when it arrived in open beta, was simply missing on the market - server side battles ensured no cheats, low spec graphics ensured wide playability, f2p model - which didnt start so well historically as we all hoped - allowed playing for free and sparing people the hussle of DRM, and all this was welcoming for investment, if you were used to what you payed as hardcore gamer for things like eve, and you had fps physics while flying, and the game was 12v12, instead of usual 4v4 titles when it came to fps flying aswell, and their lore was even colorful but still not overdone. nice artwork. very geeky.

 

Imho their biggest mistake was, they were too pricey. They should have had more inbetweens. It was also early way too grindy and not new player friendly, at all. But all these negatives also hardened the population, and made them really faithful for years.

 

Btw. it also had competitors or predecessors; some of them didnt make it. Moonbreakers was around at the same time they released. BGO failed shortly before. And there was an underground freespace and freelancer revival. Citizen wasnt even announced yet I think.

 

All things were cool, which sucked in 90/00s gaming. Back then, squads of 4 was even considered a premium feature for a while, like robocraft does now, and it was still new and fresh, but they gave in and saw this wont work out, as it would have been somewhat pay2win in a teamgame.

 

Things also change overall in the gaming world, removing features that were actually part of the early success therefore in my eyes is just harakiri for them.

Especially, since they did have better cards in the past, were sympathetic - and still are - since they are small compared to other companies, and try to really deliver good engine work, and go the extra mile for some things, like corp logos.

 

SC imho truly still stands out among todays internet games, and it still is an opportunity wasted imho, while others are catching up.

I am way more civilized than some in my arguments I think - but far from giving them praise, coz thats certainly not what they deserve - atm.

 

Imho, where you see careful planning and a greater vision, I see sheer luck it still works, but most of the causes are in the past.

This is why i get back to the old times, not because I am sentimental.

 

I am very aware, the game has also evolved on other fronts!

I myself have changed aswell.

who remembers the bad ol’ times you could only have 4man squads with license? XD

 

Actually if this system came back it would motivate ppl to buy those licenses. For some reason I think the license bonuses are not paying off. I think they are overpriced. With a license = 4 man squads system it might actually bring some moneeehz too to the star conflict. At that point I would buy a license for sure.

Last thing we need is a paywall for squads

licenses for forming squads was a terrible idea.

 

robocraft can only do it, coz nobody in his right mind would think this is ever going to be truly adult-competitive. it is pretty obviously more a fun product for a younger audience. 

 

removing the license necessity for 4 squads was a good idea, and actually, brought a lot more players back.

 

the truth is, if you want to sell something, by removing features until they buy it, you will fail. its way better, and this is proven, to sell something, that feels like a thank you for support, when it comes to subscriptions and virtual goods. early access to art, special reports, more customization options, more things that demand your user to use database or network traffic, these things i am glad to pay for, but not so i can team up with one more.

 

for me thats a clear sign to actually leave the game as it doesnt want me to play with friends.

 

edit: 100% kosty in this.

well, either way I would play 4msq. anyway.

to everyone saying that squads need to b t5 only - there are a lot of people who cant play it, myself included

or do you want everyone to tier rush again just so they can play with friends like they can in any other game ever?

 

such logic is absurd and biased towards vets who already have everything. squads need to be in all corners of pvp, the whole point is to be able to play with your friends

think about how many people installed because their friends did

 

dont pander to devs on this, demand squads be what they should, not what devs want

there has laways been tier rush… and u know what? 1945 gs ships incoming…embrace yourselves.

I haven’t any problem if we get back 4-man squads or even bigger without restrictions. But i fear that is going to be bad to SC. We need to know what’s blocking devs minds in this matter.

Nobody will deny that squads are an important part of creating community in SC, but its negative effects for those who do not want or can not form a squad are very dangerous. If tournaments and leagues are not the right places  to train squads because they are too competitive, that’s exactly what i think squads will do to random players in PVP.

Objective: Get back squads without MM restrictions in SC. Create a way to balance squads against random players. Giving reasons to random players to stay and fight against squads and don’t get disconnected to avoid them.

The coordinated attacks from a 4-man squad can imbalance even a 8vs8 match thanks to TS. For me the solution is to weaken the players who form the squad. This only affected the squad members if the other team does not have a squad. It could be a squad ratio from 0,0001 to 1 Better squad players get a lower value, casual squad players get a higher value. 

 

At the end of each game it’s needed to increase or decrease this squad ratio for each squad player. It should be retained between game sessions. The squad ratio is used to change the survivability, dps or something weaken squads members. The objective is not to punish squad players but to give random players a fair opportunity to survive. I’m aiming to get the same chance for ramdom players and squad players to win the match. I’m not trying to shut down squads, but i’m trying to prevent squads from winning 90% of the matchs they play. 

 

I was talking about a squad ratio because whenever a squad wins a match it’s easy to see it needs to be reduced theirs ability to inflict pain. But when a squad lose, then it’s hard to say if it’s a real lose. Otherwise it could be exploitable. It’s needed to compare more data.I have seen squads, when there were no squads restrictions, crushing random players to lose in the last second. To avoid this I suggest if possible to compare the damage that produces the squad, theirs kills, assists and points of effectiveness. If at the end of the game data from squad players are superior to random players on the opposing team that means that the squad did not deserve to lose but to win so I think it’s better not to increase or reduce the squad ratio but to keep the squad ratio.The time to increase the squad ratio is when the squad data from ramdom players is better that data from squad players. 

Btw i think is better with my proposal for squad players everytime they win or lose not to count as win or lose. This way it won’t change their win/loss ratio.

 

This isn’t a perfect solution. I hope someone finds a better one. And it has to be achievable. Complaining every week isn’t going to get squads back.

to everyone saying that squads need to b t5 only - there are a lot of people who cant play it, myself included

or do you want everyone to tier rush again just so they can play with friends like they can in any other game ever?

 

such logic is absurd and biased towards vets who already have everything. squads need to be in all corners of pvp, the whole point is to be able to play with your friends

think about how many people installed because their friends did

 

dont pander to devs on this, demand squads be what they should, not what devs want

I agree with you to some degree, but if developers still insist, they could at least grant us exceptions for rank 13-15.

3 or 4-men squads, old times…

Weakening squads drives away the casuals, leaving only pro players squadding and bringing us back to square one.

The answer isn’t to demonise squads by claiming everyone squadding is a killteam, but by giving the killteam an incentive to stay in T5.

Encouraging squads for everyone might be a good idea as well. Maybe a mechanic that gives you bonus synergy and credits just for being in a squad.

Weakening squads drives away the casuals, leaving only pro players squadding and bringing us back to square one.

The answer isn’t to demonise squads by claiming everyone squadding is a killteam, but by giving the killteam an incentive to stay in T5.

Encouraging squads for everyone might be a good idea as well. Maybe a mechanic that gives you bonus synergy and credits just for being in a squad.

 

Weakening squads won’t drive away casual squads. My proposal aims to give squad players and random players the same chance to win a match and it could work in T1, T2, T3, T4 or T5. 

 

Please can you explain why weakening squads drive away with my proposal? It’s hard to understand than a progresive weakening can harm more casual squads than killsquads. You get better as a squad player, then you are more weakened. Only enough weakened to give other players without TS a chance to survive.

 

Encouraging squads will reduce the queue time for squads. But if you have two teams. One with a 4-man squad and the other with no squads there is high chances that’s going to be unbalanced.