The case for squads in PvP.

So I think we can agree no matter how hard you try, you can’t win a game alone.
since the games are stupid and random you have like 50% chance to win or lose.

I never understand what was the issue with the squads vs randoms. I mean the better team will win, no matter what side has the squads. For the random players it won’t make any difference. If they get into the team with the deathsquad, they’ll win, if the get in the enemy team they’ll lose. they have 50% chance still.

The problem is the stupid player who learn the pattern and and insta give up when he thinks his team has no chance. But that happened even when we played squad vs squad as well. I had a lots of games when we faced against 4example ESB and some player started to write in chat, we already lost, and they left the match. That didn’t increased our chances :smiley: But they do it in total random games as well so I there is still no difference.

So my suggestion is, use the good old StarConflict traditions, and hide information from players. Hide the player-names and corp tags in PvP. If you are in squad, you should see only the name of the squadmates, everybody else can get a “botname” and don’t show who is in squad and who is not. Like this, the players won’t see the pattern, they won’t complain about the OP squads since the won’t know they just got a good random enemy or a squad.

the disadvantage of this is we won’t have heroes and famous players anymore in pvp, but whatever. If they want to get name, they should earn it in SQ or other competitive gamemodes. That should bet the right place for that anyway.

Since squads were removed, game has much higher player numbers, which are also quite stable up to now. Could also be result from destroyers, yet i would not meddle with stuff atm, since its working so well.

Since squads were removed, game has much higher player numbers, which are also quite stable up to now. Could also be result from destroyers, yet i would not meddle with stuff atm, since its working so well.

 

http://steamcharts.com/app/212070#All

 

Last two months are both down 7%, there may be more players than just before destroyers but I wouldn’t call that stable.

Since squads were removed, game has much higher player numbers, which are also quite stable up to now. Could also be result from destroyers, yet i would not meddle with stuff atm, since its working so well.

You can’t draw a clear line on any charts, you can’t know the squad remove had positive or negative impact you only can guess because the introduced several changes in a really short time.

squad remove, tier remove, destro release, happened really close.

Also nobody mentioned the rank-1 adventage for the GS ships. Since the T3 top queue was blocked by a “bug” for 6 months, and the tier of teamplay was the T3 in the past, the squads get forced to play full R8 + GSR8 ships what was not fair at all. The veterans always complained about the GS ship -1 rank advantage but nobody was care from the dev team. If you get 4 good players in squad and put 4 good players in random, the TS communication won’t make that huge difference. 

And yes, based on the steam charts (because we don’t have better metrics) the playerbase is decreasing again. I wrote here several time, the new content is a waste of money/advertising if the game itself not good, balanced and enjoyable.

Since squads were removed, game has much higher player numbers, which are also quite stable up to now. Could also be result from destroyers, yet i would not meddle with stuff atm, since its working so well.

 

Since horses are not used anymore as transports the shipping time was dramatically reduced.

Horses was really bad! Blame the horses! 

 

(or MAYBE during that time the train lines were built in a lot of countries that previously don’t have one)

 

Back to Star conflict:

IF the population number improved during December to February was due the “remove of the squads”: we should have a non stop increasing population. 

INSTEAD, as always happen when a new content (destros, and new half premium ships) is introduced: after few months of gaining, the numbers are decreasing since March.

 

So: “Since squads were removed, game has much higher player numbers”

It’s false.

I sais destroyers could be part of it. I just remember that game with squads had about 500-600 players a month, then came destroyers and Squad removal. Then it soared to about 1700. And now, after many months we have like 1100, still 500 more than before, long after novelty effect of destroyers is gone.

 

Also look how rarely used are squad gamemodes, barely playable. So there cant be much demand for it.

Also look how rarely used are squad gamemodes, barely playable. So there cant be much demand for it.

 

Do I even have to comment this sentence?

 

Leagues are empty because nobody wants to fight the most elite teams, even experienced players don’t want because they’ll probably get wrecked. Dreadnoughts are kinda empty because there’s no t5. Don’t know about tourneys, I haven’t played them for one month. 

I sais destroyers could be part of it. I just remember that game with squads had about 500-600 players a month, then came destroyers and Squad removal. Then it soared to about 1700. And now, after many months we have like 1100, still 500 more than before, long after novelty effect of destroyers is gone.

 

Also look how rarely used are squad gamemodes, barely playable. So there cant be much demand for it.

OFC the destroyers could be part of it. There was advertisement, and also some of the old players wanted to try it so they come back for a bit. That increase has nothing to do with the squad remove.

And ofc there is not much demand for the squad gamemodes what is in the game, since all of them boring as hell.

The dread battles still need 30min organization for a 20min monotone game.

The leagues has 1 gamemode, with a tons of restrictions, sometime you can’t even play because you are already in a group and you can’t leave it during the league time.

The games are small and only a few tactic can working. CTB with 5vs5 is a joke. specially on bigger maps.

Tournaments: The destros made it worst than in was but I think that is still popular.

PlayerVS AI??? that is a pve… so it doesn’t count.

About squad gamemode, in the HOWL they play PVE in squad, because they want to play together. They also play specops.

In R15 I had good games. In R13 I had mostly Destro games.

 

Now I would say, R13 games actually improved a bit. With more players farming for ships and using Guard/LRF mostly, R13 can be somewhat a PITA.

 

R15 games were mostly my domain last weeks, doing my R13 missions rather with that crowd. I feel like at least I was able to carry my weight (given that I compete with R15 in mostly R13 ships, I am glad, there is no CtB anymore). Destros in this queue are really rare, and usually, end up getting primaried to death.

(Btw. that brings up the point for me: I hope T5 destros will be only slightly stronger than T4 ones. Atm. R15 games with destros sometimes actually develop into some kind of strategic use, and sometimes can be quite fun. Seeing however, how the Destro from T4 fits into T5, I can only imagine horror to think, what if the jump to R14 Destros is as big as it was from R8 to R11 ones…)

 

So I can’t say, games have changed that much in solo content - nor skillwise. In fact, I would even suggest a slight increase in the pop skills in R13, and to me it felt like the pre-determined-outcome-games have reduced compared to when this system started, but they are still there. As many have stated, with so many different changes in the game in the last half year, it is really hard to tell, what is up. Also, because of course a lot of this is subjective, but I think subjective experience can be often more important, because it tells you what to look for in the stats.

 

I think, removal of squads is a morale issue, and of course also removed actually the more balanced games overall. So it did not just remove the squad overkill game, but also the positive aspects of them, the “good” games. Explanation follows.

 

 

If I say good game…

Not talking about winning or losing, just the experience, if it was “close”, and team seemed to have some kind of group play, so a good game is a game that had a good story for everyone. Horror games can also be fun, at times, in a masochistic way. Depends on what your mood is, if you do not care, R13 is the perfect place to be. It’s awesome in destros. Doesn’t matter if you lose or win, just go in.

 

Overall however, instead of reducing pre-determined-outcomes, which is the horror scenario everybody is mentioning about uber-squads squashing your team, since squads were removed, these games have overall increased quite feelably.

So to tell it clearly: with squads you had these few horror games, few good games, lots of inbetween.

then with removal, you had no squad issues anymore, but suddenly, games were becoming more chaotic and resulted often in a rushed game. You know, those hot-join games you join to see your team lose or win…

 

I think that is the most significant impact of squads, or their lack of. And that is why I say, the whole myth about squads being the main problem for players is coming out of this forum, and personal rage opinions, but overall, believing players leave a game for good because they lose against a team of other players who play together, is overall, excuses, and bowing to it was just a bad decision.

Yes I know, sometimes you actually don’t want to be unable to compete, but as long as the game gives options, and is fun, most of that anger will reflect back and make you try even harder.

I think its the responsibility of the game culture (community, devs, news, etc.) to show the fun of organised play, semi-organised play, etc. instead of a non-stop discussion over 3 years how to make a fair MM. Simply because, guys, it did not impact anything, anywhere.

 

Its true, you cannot “carry” teams, but personal impact, especially with a few supports in the deck is still possible.

If that is a reduction of quality depends really on how you see it: in R15 games with lots of vets, personal impact is also lower, because its simply not that easy to just rampage in a CO through the team.

But sometimes actually, there are games, where you basicly get the team carried for you. Overall however, the people get more casual in these queues, because they miss squads. Even the big solo-stars of R15 became casuals.

 

Reduction of population, I think other facts also played a role. Not everybody left anyway, a lot sleep.

There are also things which might need more talks.

Like interceptor blindspots killing RF and shrapnel off the game, leaving the ECM the most fun ceptor to play - which is kinda embarassing, because ECMs sometimes even survive, if you actually try to actively kill yourself…

 

Mostly i think it became a trust issue. The more a player plays, the more he starts to get interested into what is around the game. Starts to read the news. And if that news is always acting like things are so much better now, it really just makes them stop listening or caring. People started to distrust the ambitions of the game, and thats the biggest morale issue.

I sais destroyers could be part of it. I just remember that game with squads had about 500-600 players a month, then came destroyers and Squad removal. Then it soared to about 1700. And now, after many months we have like 1100, still 500 more than before, long after novelty effect of destroyers is gone.

 

What part of this:

 

 

IF the population number improved during December to February was due the “remove of the squads”: we should have a non stop increasing population. 

INSTEAD, as always happen when a new content (destros, and new half premium ships) is introduced: after few months of gaining, the numbers are decreasing since March.

 

 

You didn’t get?

You want to see again less than 500 players around? It’s only a matter of time till it drop again. Unless, as always happens, a new content will introduced and you will have again the “up & down” curve.

 

 

 

Also look how rarely used are squad gamemodes, barely playable. So there cant be much demand for it.

 

Weekend tournament is overcrowded. 

Other “squad gamemodes” are:

 

  • Dreadnaught fights : played by few corps 'cause that game mode is BAD, doesn’t give much reward but cost a lot of efforts in real life and, as I said: the rewards are not worth it 

 

  • Leagues : Boring 5vs5, only available at selected time schedules. One single game mode (ctb). You can’t bring with you less skilled players to train them 'cause you need the best pilots in order to win some matches. Insane rules about  recruiting pilots, You need to prepare your squad way before leagues start, once again like for dreadnought: this seems more a “job” than a game.

 

Now, since I’m really tired of explain the same stuffs over and over to people that are not aware of this game and how it works:  

 

Why people that have near to no experience are considerate as valuable assets in terms of feedback when we are discussing about deep mechanic changes? Why their opinion count so much? Wth?

“look how rarely used are squad gamemodes”

When squads were unrestricted you couldn’t get a T3 / T4 game that didn’t have at least one squad. At peak times you could get 15v15 games where more than half the players were in squads!

Perhaps then u should ask for Leagues to be made more accessible? This might be somethin the devs are more inclined to do.

Perhaps then u should ask for Leagues to be made more accessible? This might be somethin the devs are more inclined to do.

Leagues are not an alternative of the PvP. There is no alternative of the PvP squads.

Nobody wants the restrictions and the timetable based gaming.

Perhaps then u should ask for Leagues to be made more accessible? This might be somethin the devs are more inclined to do.

The amount of changes you’d have to make to Leagues to make them accessible enough would be so great it’d actually be easier just to scrap them and put unrestricted squads back in PvP.

 

The problem with squads, both now and then, comes exclusively from the top end. Even the bulk of squad players don’t want to face the very best players. Most gamers, in fact, do not want to face someone totally beyond their ability to compete against. This is why games like Starcraft or DoTA have ranking systems. The very weak people want to be kept out of the general player population, and the very strong need to be kept out of the general player population. Everyone else can get along just fine.

 

But where the major issues came in was in T4, where the matches were invariably 4v4, the wait times were very long, solo play was next to impossible, and the other team was always one of the uber elite squads.

 

Now, what’s the problem with leagues? Matches are always 5v5, colossal wait times (you can only play 2-3 times per day at fixed times), solo play is near impossible, and there are uber elite squads waiting to ruin your day.

 

 

Compare that to the old school T3, where queues were short, matches were large (10-15 per side was very common), solo play was possible (albeit not recommended unless you had sharp team skills) and squads varied in skill from very strong to just a bunch of friends messing about. For every bad game you had, you’d get a good one to balance it out.

 

 

So clearly, the squads themselves can’t have been the problem, because when you change a few variables they worked just fine.

 

 

Leagues are serving only to highlight the problems with squads, because they are an environment specifically designed to highlight those problems. Change the variables, change the environment, and you change the outcome.

Well, if its really Squads like before that u want and northing else, then i fear u wont get it.

‘‘This charts is still far away from truth. Star Conflict has much less Steam players than Gaijin accounts.’’

 

Even if it does not show the majority of players, we can infer trends from the chart and see that the player base is declining, especially since nobody wants to give us any other information to look at.

So, due to your endless whining, we have Squads again. Are you happy now?

So, due to your endless whining, we have Squads again. Are you happy now?

 

Are you? I was very pleased to finally be able to play with my friends again today :slight_smile: (despite the long wait times which could be improved on)

So, due to your endless whining, we have Squads again. Are you happy now?

2304795-good_good_let_the_butthurt_flow_

 

Sounds like some scrub got pounded by squads today. Git gud, son.

So, due to your endless whining, we have Squads again. Are you happy now?

 

Yes we are. 

Get good and keep an eye on steam charts. Seems what I predicted about “up/down” population really happened…

Maybe wasn’t the squad’s removal the reason this game gained some “new blood” for a while, isn’t it?