Coming back to what we was discussing yesterday about “how much fun is t3” and game itself nowdays…
This is a typical t3 match:
I mean… Warld of Tank is a fast and dynamic game compared to what SC became and is now.
Explain me how is presumed i should have fun in these kind of matches…
… actually the only fun i’m sometimes having comes from 3v3 and 4v4 matches vs capable people (read: no frigballers) in t5. Offcourse t5 comes with its 6 minutes queues and lots of 1v1 with bots so…
Don’t be ridiculous, that’s not a typical T3 match. 2 engies on both sides! That never happens!
My T3:
At least a third of both teams uses intys. CovOps have basically disappeared since the troll-buttons were nerfed (SD and nuke).
The new FOTM are recon ships apparently (the “LOL your shields are all mine, resistances are such BS”-button and “now you can’t cloak for over a minute”-button and let’s not forget the “also nobody can cloak around here”-button). Lots of people crashing into lots of things at warp speed.
At least 3 LRFs in 12v12. Sometimes one of them is an empire frig. Sometimes.
There are some guards…
… but no engies. Maybe one. But he’ll switch later after getting super-focused to death within 3 seconds of spawning.
The only fighters are bubble-gunships and command. There are no tacklers.
Don’t be ridiculous, that’s not a typical T3 match. 2 engies on both sides! That never happens!
My T3:
At least a third of both teams uses intys. CovOps have basically disappeared since the troll-buttons were nerfed (SD and nuke).
The new FOTM are recon ships apparently (the “LOL your shields are all mine, resistances are such BS”-button and “now you can’t cloak for over a minute”-button and let’s not forget the “also nobody can cloak around here”-button). Lots of people crashing into lots of things at warp speed.
At least 3 LRFs in 12v12. Sometimes one of them is an empire frig. Sometimes.
There are some guards…
… but no engies. Maybe one. But he’ll switch later after getting super-focused to death within 3 seconds of spawning.
The only fighters are bubble-gunships and command. There are no tacklers.
Recons are actually weakest. Thing is however, right now for interceptor, its offensive power and support ability are both irrelevant, because they are aimbotted to death by huge meatshields known as frigates with a 2 button combo. The only interceptor that can reliably live through it is recon because of shield drain. As a result, it’s the “most powerful” interceptor in regard of “it’s the only interceptor that isn’t two shotted every time it tries to engage a decent player”.
It’s not that interceptors need tweaks among themselves. It’s that they need a massive survivability buff so that things like offensive potential and utility they carry actually starts to matter again for their balance. Right now they do not, because it’s irrelevant what tools dead ship carried. And recon is the only one that has above snowball chance in hell of surviving.
I agree with you on the inty buff across the board.
Besides the Frigballz the main issue is the randomness of the teams. 8v8+ matches cant be coordinated (in Pugs, heck its not even doable with 3 other pugs).
Due to this random behavior Recons have momentarily the strongest modules. CovOps suffer from their weak HP and ECM modules got nerfed to a point where you really need a voice-coordinated team to make them viable. Also their effective potential to deal damage is very low, additionally they are the slowest ships on the field, which lets them suffer since they can be even easier targeted.
Actually I think that any inty, which isnt self-sufficient and faster than 600m/s is just a deathtrap (I know exctly 2 in T4 and i think it cant be achived in lower tiers).
On the other hand i noticed in Dogfights, that due to mines, cloak and gtfo options (even if its only for repositioning and having time to breath), Recons are far superior to ECM and if you dont do some lucky shots, superior to CovOps, too. Just due to the denial of heals and stealth. Parasite renders Jerry Inties vunerable in seconds.
Coming back to what we was discussing yesterday about “how much fun is t3” and game itself nowdays…
This is a typical t3 match:
I mean… Warld of Tank is a fast and dynamic game compared to what SC became and is now.
Explain me how is presumed i should have fun in these kind of matches…
… actually the only fun i’m sometimes having comes from 3v3 and 4v4 matches vs capable people (read: no frigballers) in t5. Offcourse t5 comes with its 6 minutes queues and lots of 1v1 with bots so…
This is absolutely not what i experience in a T3.
a) I’ve noticed that games like this have a higher chance of happening when i am on a Russian server
b) People don’t pick or don’t even carry ships to counter frigballs, Gunships with Gauss/Tacklers with lazers/Commands with assaults, these will not much against frigballs but yet people still pick it with the mix of interceptors.
c) In t3 Federation guards can’t tank to be frigball threat, Cruises are to slow and still killable without much problem with anti-frig builds or just ignored for time being, max survivability Styxs are as easy to kill as Federation Guards.
I personally dont know how its int4+, i don’t know what is the ratio of DMG output to those Jericho 90+k survivability builds, but in T3 there are tools to fight back vs frigs, people are just not using them.
I don’t know what theories the Dev Team use, but if they played the game the answers would be crystal clear.
The reason I stayed in T2 as long as I did was because I found it utterly insufferable to fly in T3. In T2 I had access to pure-blue Rank 6 ships across the board and I liked it. I worked hard to get those ships, to rank them all to max or near-max synergy and to get all my factions to Rank 6 to acquire the blues. I felt that being top dog and dominating the matches was my “reward” for all the hard work.
Then the game started putting me in T3 matches and my frustration grew. I became extremely angry at the game because I was facing ships with modules and weapons I could not use myself, and often had no defence against (looking at you, ECM). I felt cheated; I had worked hard to earn the best my tier had to offer, and I was having that power taken away by being thrown against opponents I couldn’t compete with.
Flying my own T3 ships was no better - Rank 7 ships with Mk I / Mk II gear, being matched against pure-blue Rank 9s? What’s the point in that? Rank 7 was (and likely still is) so terrible I was earning more credits by staying at Rank 6 and ‘farming’ Tier 2.
You want to know what the problem with this game’s progression is? It’s a giant xxxx-blocking exercise! Tiers are divided so that equipment from one Tier can’t pass to the other, meaning that when you advance, you are starting over. This makes players feel dis-empowered and encourages them not to advance, but the matchmaking wants them to advance, because it wants to put the top of each tier in the same match as the bottom of the last tier. The result is a system that pleases nobody - you get “uplifted” players whose hard-won bonuses are negated by the inherently superior equipment of the tier above, and the rest of their team resents them because “omg you brought T2 ships in a T4 match!”.
On the subject of people “choosing” to bring T1 ships in a T5 match… that should never be allowed in Sector Conquest. PvE? Fine. Custom Matches? Go for your life. But Core, “ranked” PvP games where that dumbass can lose the match for his whole team? No. It is not fair on the rest of the team. When people try to matchmake in PvP as a squad the game should throw an exception if they aren’t all flying the same tier. This is a team game, and nothing ruins a team game like a pug who throws the game.
On that note, don’t allow players to launch a PvP unless they have three ships in their lineup either. In T1 that is understandable, but there is no excuse for pilots in T2 and up to be bringing one ship to a Capture the Beacons match.
I agree with you on the inty buff across the board.
Besides the Frigballz the main issue is the randomness of the teams. 8v8+ matches cant be coordinated (in Pugs, heck its not even doable with 3 other pugs).
Due to this random behavior Recons have momentarily the strongest modules. CovOps suffer from their weak HP and ECM modules got nerfed to a point where you really need a voice-coordinated team to make them viable. Also their effective potential to deal damage is very low, additionally they are the slowest ships on the field, which lets them suffer since they can be even easier targeted.
Actually I think that any inty, which isnt self-sufficient and faster than 600m/s is just a deathtrap (I know exctly 2 in T4 and i think it cant be achived in lower tiers).
On the other hand i noticed in Dogfights, that due to mines, cloak and gtfo options (even if its only for repositioning and having time to breath), Recons are far superior to ECM and if you dont do some lucky shots, superior to CovOps, too. Just due to the denial of heals and stealth. Parasite renders Jerry Inties vunerable in seconds.
Correction: Interceptors need a buff across the board IN CERTAIN TIERS!
The last thing Tier 2 needs is more powerful Interceptors. Frigates, and Engineers in particular, have already been hunted to the brink of extinction in lower tiers…
It would be nice maybe for squads to see their actual weight, maybe even the ships selected by the players beforehand. I mean if somebody insists on going into T4 with a T2, we can’t stop him. But at least, if people build squads, this way they can discuss before they hit launch, even if they don’t know each other that well, and there is no surprise in the loading screen, and less need to ask each time.
I think the last nerf on the bubble-gun was too much. Also I would suggest at least a 20% nerf on LRF-Survivability. They tank too much and the Torpedo Changes on the LRF were necessary but they are way too viable at the current state, which lets the matches slow down a lot.
God no. xxxx that. If I see a buff on the Singularity Cannon, I’m going to leave this game. It already destroys Frigates in a handful of shots and it also 1-shots other Fighters and Ceptors and you want to buff that?
Squad size was reduced from 4 to 3 because they ruined the games were they were playing, making them too hard for the enemy team.
Players with t1-2 ships shouldn’t be banned from t4-5 games because is their responsibility to bring such ships to that game.
Well, in the second case, those squads are also ruining the game, making for their team more difficult to win, it’s like having 1, sometimes 2 less players.
God no. xxxx that. If I see a buff on the Singularity Cannon, I’m going to leave this game. It already destroys Frigates in a handful of shots and it also 1-shots other Fighters and Ceptors and you want to buff that?
Singularity Cannons can deal 11k (and I’m sure even more with purples) dmg to shield in T3 with crits, and 8-9 to hull. I don’t even wanna know how much dmg they can do in t4-5.
God no. xxxx that. If I see a buff on the Singularity Cannon, I’m going to leave this game. It already destroys Frigates in a handful of shots and it also 1-shots other Fighters and Ceptors and you want to buff that?
You know that the last Nerf to bubbles was heating and heating penalty.
If you cant kill a LRF easily with overdrive+bubbles (it overheats before the kill, if you dont slow down the cadence) you know that it could need a buff.
Actually I come to think, that maybe Fighter Lazor is a better anti-Frig weapon than Bubbles.
God no. xxxx that. If I see a buff on the Singularity Cannon, I’m going to leave this game. It already destroys Frigates in a handful of shots and it also 1-shots other Fighters and Ceptors and you want to buff that?
The issue here is that the Devs are, I assume, looking for a game where everyone is equally inclined to take every class… and then making those classes utterly disparate.
Case in point: Gunships are one of the worst ships to fly because they have no buffs or debuffs. This means all your points come from kills and kill-assists. Compare that to an Engineer or better yet, a Command. These ships can amass a considerable amount of points just by flying around with their buffs activated. This in turn makes them more appealing to players; higher score = more rewards.
Part two of the problem is that there is no weapon or module that distinguishes its effect by target. Singularity Cannons have the same DPS whether you fire at a Frigate or an Interceptor. Imagine, for a moment, that the Singularity Cannon did only 50% damage vs Interceptors and 75% damage vs Fighters. Or what if Tacklers had all their weapon damage reduced by 50% vs Frigates and a 25% reduction vs Fighters? What if ECM were likewise tweaked to make them terrible vs Interceptors but powerful vs Frigates?
Imagine that situation; a game where CovOps pilots lived in mortal terror of enemy Tacklers because they knew, even with a full set of Experimental weapons and modules and their opponent had Mk I gear, they could never win in a straight fight. Imagine Engineers that knew they couldn’t defend themselves from Interceptors if they tried, and Guards who were terrible vs pretty much anyone but Interceptors.
This is where, I feel, the only true answer to the Frigball lies. The game needs to be built around a Rock-Paper-Scissors mechanic that strongly pushes for diversity. The way Devs balance now, all they can do is push people out of Frigballs and into Inty Balls, or possibly Fighter Balls. They’ll never get a diverse squadron.
But in a game where four CovOps could easily wipe out eight Frigates? That is balanced. Why? Because those four CovOps could be countered by a pair of Tacklers. The only way to win would be to have a mixed bag of ships - something to hard counter any and all possible enemies. It would be the end of hyper-specialisation on a team level, whilst encouraging hyper-specialisation on an individual one.
You know that the last Nerf to bubbles was heating and heating penalty.
If you cant kill a LRF easily with overdrive+bubbles (it overheats before the kill, if you dont slow down the cadence) you know that it could need a buff.
Actually I come to think, that maybe Fighter Lazor is a better anti-Frig weapon than Bubbles.
Are you sure? I know you play in higher tiers so I can’t talk about that, but in T3 LR frigates are still melting easily (even with 30-35k surv) with overdrive bubbles.
I had a 34k crit in t5…but that s not the point.
What Luckyo and Zap were saying, and i agree, is it should be tweaked to be more effective vs frigs and less vs ceptors and other fighters.
+1, they’re too good vs ceptors, Gauss Cannon is already the anti inty weapon, fighters should have also a decent weapon against frigates but that’s not that good against other ships.
Gauss Cannons is amazing to rip down in seconds cov ops and recons, but against fighters and frigates, without overdrive and aiming overcharge it’s far from easy to kill them.
This is where, I feel, the only true answer to the Frigball lies. The game needs to be built around a Rock-Paper-Scissors mechanic that strongly pushes for diversity. The way Devs balance now, all they can do is push people out of Frigballs and into Inty Balls, or possibly Fighter Balls. They’ll never get a diverse squadron.
Case in point: Gunships are one of the worst ships to fly because they have no buffs or debuffs
I did not even read further. Completely disagree.
Case in point: Gunships are still godly and the tipping point of any assault. It is your biggest bet to take down that frigate, or kill any fighter ship in seconds. Either with singularity or rails, it is the tip of the spear. Fly with me Jasan and I will show you.
Case in point: Gunships with singularity are still godly. Fly with me Jasan and I will show you
So you picked one line out of context and utterly failed to see what I was getting at and now you want to fail to prove me wrong with a meaningless show of your “skill”?
No thanks. Maybe if you were intending to pull up a table of stats that showed, across all tiers and skill levels, Gunships earn comparable end-game scores to all other classes (which is blatantly untrue) I’d listen, but you aren’t, so I won’t.
Actually I come to think, that maybe Fighter Lazor is a better anti-Frig weapon than Bubbles.
Due to its Ions mechanics, they are very good and devastating (dmg output and effective range) vs not so tanky Frigates, even more efective than a bubble gun, but proper guards render Ions useless, diminishing returns on dmg scaling of Ions vs resistances amassed on a ship is just too much
