Star Conflict OBT v. 0.9.0 Discussion

Might be on this thread, might not. I went back to page 67 and scanned it all, but couldn’t find it. I’ll quote it once I do.

 

EDIT: Page 51… No sign of it yet. Unless you’ve edited it out, of course. That’s always a possible option.

 

On the topic of immortal frigates: which ones were - in particular - immortal? Yes, Empire Engineers. Solution to this? Give engies a severe hull and shield strength nerf, cut out a secondary healing option (remote heals and stations) and convert healing to percentages. Just three things.

and i dunno about you but i already have all the T3 mods i need from T2 salvage. in fact, i almost never get T2 stuff in T2 games… always T3 greens :\ or T2 purples…

Try flying R5 ships. You’ll likely get more T2 greens and purples.

I just use R4. Got me T2s every time.

Try flying R5 ships. You’ll likely get more T2 greens and purples.

 

haha

 

yea well, i happen to get a lot of T1s in the mix :\ which then gets trashed immediately…

 

but as it stands i have 14 T3 military modules now, which should be 15-20 by the time i hit R7 in all ship classes. the rest i’ll salvage when i’m grinding the R7s and R8s, and also buy some Mk3s (the most useful ones anyways) before i hit R9. and try to play ships that i already have military mods for first.

Ah, here we go. A little something for the developers to look into.

This is now your guide on what you should do.

 

Basically, don’t try to make this game as if it was a proper game. If you claim it’s a beta, fine. I’ll run with that. But at this point I think you should stop developing and start playtesting, as I’m getting this feeling you’re more concerned about developing. They’re two different things. Playtesting should be your biggest concern. Get our feedback, write it down, and instead of saying ‘we’re just considering it at the moment’, tell us what exactly you’re considering. Where you are currently standing in terms of a particular idea we’ve suggested. Are you discussing how to integrate it? Are you discussing if it would truly be beneficial to the game or not? Are you discussing the long-term implications? Tell us these things, even though Daniel discourages this. You don’t have to give us details or tell us how a conversation unfolded in the server room or something, just ‘We’re still trying to figure out how to implement it. It’ll take a while, so please be patient.’ will do.

 

If you really wanted to be good to your playerbase, this is the kind of conversation we should be seeing more often from the fingers of the developers themselves:

 

(Playerbase makes suggestion. In this case, let’s go for the missiles.)

(Developers examine thread.)

“Fine. We can do that for you. Give us maybe two weeks and then it should be ready.” <— Rough time estimate. We’ll be a lot more patient and understanding if you do this.

Hold on, I disagree. I think we shouldn’t get unlimited missiles per life.

Why do you say that? A lot of players think it’ll enhance the experience. <— Actively asking us to extend our replies.

Well, it removes a certain skill element, wouldn’t you say?

Do you think it would make the game better or worse? <— Confirming a vocal player’s standing.

I’d say worse.

Anyone agree with this? <— Getting as much information as possible.

(Let’s say the vocal majority agree that unlimited missiles per life is bad.)

Alright, then. We’ll get back to you in a few days to tell you how it’s going. <— Again, time estimate with a promise of information.

(Days pass.)

This is what we have so far: we developed a system with missile cartridges that replenish per life. We’re planning on dividing up the missiles per class now, so interceptors can only have small missiles, fighters medium, and frigates large. <— Giving us as much information as you have at the time, and explaining it so there are no misconceptions.

(Vocal majority say segregating missiles is a bad idea.)

Fair enough. We’ll discard that idea. What would you prefer? <— Trying to get more opinions and suggestions on what you could do. We’re here to talk to you, so asking us what we’d like is always welcome.

Why don’t you let ships keep their current missile slots, but they replenish every time you die?

Hold on! I don’t think the anomaly generator or the nukes should have more than one use per life.

Okay, so what you want is: missiles restocking per life, and nukes and the anomaly generator should be once per life? <— Affirming what we want.

(Everyone agrees.)

Great! We’ll tell you what we have planned sometime next week. Thanks guys! <— I’m just going to cut it off here for the sake of simplicity, but you get the gist. This is what I think we’d like to see more of.

The problem with that is that they don’t listen. Or, at the very least, they’re VERY selective of what they want to hear (and I’m not talking about filtering the rage-filled posts among the real feedback).

The problem with that is that they don’t listen. Or, at the very least, they’re VERY selective of what they want to hear (and I’m not talking about filtering the rage-filled posts among the real feedback).

Says it halfway through the video:

’It’s important that you don’t reject any of this feedback. Don’t get defensive, or try to explain to the players what will eventually be in the game, just embrace it all openly. Write all of it down and really listen.'

You have an overly rosy memory of the old model. I used to get something around 1000 for loss and 2000 for win back then if I remember correctly. Nowadays if I come to play a handful of games a day, I will get several times more than what I would have gotten with the old model (three contracts per game, awarding 600 to 3500 each).

If only slows you down significant if you grind hardcore, and even then the only way to go to numbers you quote is to chain lose every game. Getting victory contract alone gives you about 1/4 of the old gain.

Considering that you can cycle factions when grinding, you will rarely if ever really run into a situation where you don’t have three contracts picked for completion. As a result, your gain is usually close to what it used to be back when loyalty was tied to reputation even when grinding if you do it right, and actually higher than it used to be if you’re just coming in for a few games.

The current model with loyalty appears to be fairly well made. It punishes the ultra grind (and even more so PvE grind) but rewards smart playing, winning and people who play just a few games a day. The only major problem I see with it is the insane increase in loyalty needed for R13>R15.

And on topic of reputation, I suspect that for grinding just one type of ship/racial implant they actually reduced the grind significantly. Look at the utterly insane numbers needed from the loyalty screen and imagine how many games you would have needed with the old system to hit R15 with any of the factions. Also consider that they also reduced the reputation gained from tiers lower than your current maximum tier around 0.8.x.

I suspect that the actual numbers would have been pretty crazy for reputation grind under the old system, far worse than even current synergy grind provided you just want one type of a ship/racial implant and not all of them.

Rounded up math: with average 50% win ratio and when playing maximum rank ship available to you, you’d be earning around 1500 rep per game under old system. It takes 1.390.000 rep to go R12>R15 for a single faction. That rounds up to approximately 926(!) games.

I’ve played much less than that since new patch, and I have 2 ship lines up to R15, one of them had to be leveled from R10 no less.

On a side note, this math is pretty depressing. I shudder when I think that some people actually had multiple R15 levelled up before the patch. That requires thousands upon thousands of games.

Lol, I used to gain loyalty at a higher rate, 2k+ for a loss and 3k+ for a win. But then again I had a free license at the time.

 

And I get significantly less than with the old system, back then you had contracts+loyalty in matches, contracs gave less yes but they were boosts to both loyalty and credit gain.

And when playing against ESB with pugs, there is nothing but chain losses possible…And if I don’t play T4 I can’t progress, and the cycle goes on…

 

And switching factions? seriously?! I already have ~6 ships in R11-R15 I can already buy but simply don’t have the credits for, you expect to spend 250k credits every 5 matches as well? I already stopped using battle boosters because of the insane pricings(450k/15 matches) and I sure as hell won’t waste my time with contract switching.

 

And why the hell would you punish the hardcore players? If anything they should reward them because they pay the most money of all your customers in general! The contract system is terrible and you know it!  It is FAR slower than the past and should NEVER have been implemented in it’s current design. 

 

The reputation grind <7.9 was easy as well, with 3-5k reputation per match, the new system you can get ~3k per match if you use T4/T5 for leveling T5 reputation. So it is actually quite fast. Only when you played far below your tier did you earn 1500.

 

Trust me, they leveled to R15 in about 400 matches not 1k, they old system was easily 300% faster than it currently is and loyalty more than 500%.

 

Remember the reason why they introduced the contract system? “You could get all L15’s in 2 months” right now you need 2 months just to get all from L9 to L12!

Luckyo to prove my point 

qoWaYZW.jpg

 

In T2 I earned more than that, but this is the only picture I can find in my screenshot library from before contract bullshit.

That screenshot is beautiful… it reminds me of an awesome game I used to love but has mysteriously vanished.

A LOT has changed considering how loyalty is gained. Yet I feel that loyalty gain is slower than what it was, but I personally don’t see a problem with it.

 

Things to take into consideration when comparing loyalty gains between versions:

 

  • People (discussing here about this) have leveled up from those days, and with new tiers come new contracts to select when other contracts are in cool down => faster loyalty gain per hour. Depending are we talking objectively or subjectively, this matters to discussion, or not.

 

  • People have licenses or don’t have licenses; the story is different if you have one or don’t.

 - License adds loot, which can result in random loyalty loot after a win. You get this less often if you don’t have license as you have less loot per win.

 

  • 3 Early DLCs added one more loot and +10% each loyalty gain. That makes difference too in loyalty grind.

 

When discussing about loyalty gain, it is important to note if you have these gains or not compared to others. I have them all, and think that loyalty grind is OK. But I wouldn’t start this game if I had to start now from zero, without any bonuses. Not only due to loyalty, but mainly due to synergy and not being able to skip ships. Luckily I started playing this game earlier.

 

Considering the loyalty prices follow some kind of exponential curve(?), this thing would have to be empirically and mathematically investigated, instead of just sharing personal feelings toward the thing without much to back it up. There just are too many moving parts in this (licence, DLCs, how well you play, certain sub-faction contracts are easier than other but are for that reason in cool down faster, so on and so on).

A LOT has changed considering how loyalty is gained. Yet I feel that loyalty gain is slower than what it was, but I personally don’t see a problem with it.

 

Things to take into consideration when comparing loyalty gains between versions:

 

  • People (discussing here about this) have leveled up from those days, and with new tiers come new contracts to select when other contracts are in cool down => faster loyalty gain per hour. Depending are we talking objectively or subjectively, this matters to discussion, or not.

 

  • People have licenses or don’t have licenses; the story is different if you have one or don’t.

 - License adds loot, which can result in random loyalty loot after a win. You get this less often if you don’t have license as you have less loot per win.

 

  • 3 Early DLCs added one more loot and +10% each loyalty gain. That makes difference too in loyalty grind.

 

When discussing about loyalty gain, it is important to note if you have these gains or not compared to others. I have them all, and think that loyalty grind is OK. But I wouldn’t start this game if I had to start now from zero, without any bonuses. Not only due to loyalty, but mainly due to synergy and not being able to skip ships. Luckily I started playing this game earlier.

 

Considering the loyalty prices follow some kind of exponential curve(?), this thing would have to be empirically and mathematically investigated, instead of just sharing personal feelings toward the thing without much to back it up. There just are too many moving parts in this (licence, DLCs, how well you play, certain sub-faction contracts are easier than other but are for that reason in cool down faster, so on and so on).

I don’t know what level loyalty you are, but these are my findings:

L4-6 is a huge pain due to not enough contracts

L7-9 is even worse becaiuse a lot of the contracts were 1 day CD

L10-12 takes about 1-2 weeks because you have to get a very large amount of loyalty, with a very slow rate.

L13-15 will likely take ~1 month per sub faction.

Do not forget : We actually have to level up subfaction with no reward for level 4-7-10-13.

 

More Grind please. Especially when I have to grind All the subfactions to play 1 type of ships.

I don’t know what level loyalty you are, but these are my findings:

L4-6 is a huge pain due to not enough contracts

L7-9 is even worse becaiuse a lot of the contracts were 1 day CD

L10-12 takes about 1-2 weeks because you have to get a very large amount of loyalty, with a very slow rate.

L13-15 will likely take ~1 month per sub faction.

Redo the math on L13-L15. Really, just redo the math. The numbers you need to get more then double per level at R13 to R14 for some reason. It’s an insane jump with no equivalent in entire game.

As for your screenshot, it confirms my math to a tee. You didn’t get different amounts of loyalty depending on tier back then - it was the same loyalty at T3 as it was at T1. Around 2k for a win, around 1k for a loss. And they nerfed the gains if your weren’t playing the max rank ship.

As for punishing the “hardcore”, there’s actually a valid reason for that. Essentially when you have a progress-based game, one of the biggest problems is gain disparity between average player that brings in the lion’s share of money, and small subset of hardcore players that are usually paying a lot, but demanding far more than what their payments could cover. These tend to blow through massive amounts of content which is designed to be consumed for months by average players in weeks or less. Then they proceed to cry about having no content, and as was seen many times in case of WoW, they are often joined by players who haven’t done but a tiny fraction of content in calls for “more content because we’re done with what we have”.

So games introduce hardcore-specific gating, which has severe impact on people that grind stuff hardcore while little negative impact to actual positive impact on average players, as is the way in Star Conflict. This is easily justifiable. Obviously if you’re playing hardcore like some of us do, you won’t like being restricted, but even then the reasons behind it are easily understandable and generally good for the game. I’d argue that the main problem here isn’t the gating as it was implemented, as much as the fact that temporary gate was introduced to those who were late a couple of months ago, giving some players a clear head start on others.

P.S. Sabre01’s, aka OldSpice’s accusations are starting to get really tiring. It’s just annoying to have someone fling crap at your in vain hopes that some of it will stick, even when none did after months of doing so.

Granted, after flying that glorified trash can for months for whatever reason, he must have a lot of trash other people deposited into his ship to fling.

As for your screenshot, it confirms my math to a tee. You didn’t get different amounts of loyalty depending on tier back then - it was the same loyalty at T3 as it was at T1. Around 2k for a win, around 1k for a loss. And they nerfed the gains if your weren’t playing the max rank ship.

 

 

AND you got the contracts as a nice bonus.

This game is a MOBA.  They don’t need to constantly add new content to progression or  make sure people don’t all reach the cap.  Nobody ever complains about level 30 being the cap in League of Legends…  We play to PvP, not to grind months on end just to have an equal footing in said PvP.

 

EDIT:  For a game like this, I say 1 month should be enough to cap out progression, 2 months, tops.  From then on out, its all about skill.

This game is a MOBA.  They don’t need to constantly add new content to progression or  make sure people don’t all reach the cap.  Nobody ever complains about level 30 being the cap in League of Legends…  We play to PvP, not to grind months on end just to have an equal footing in said PvP.

 

EDIT:  For a game like this, I say 1 month should be enough to cap out progression, 2 months, tops.  From then on out, its all about skill.

It USED to be that fast. Then someone decided we weren’t having enough of a progression experience and toned us all down. Except for those that already had R15.

This game is a MOBA. 

A MOBA was an action real time strategy game like LoL/DotA last I heard the term. Has it lost all meaning already just like MMO and Beta and is being used for everything? Just curious, I find these developments interesting.

AND you got the contracts as a nice bonus.

exactly, the old progression was much faster, no matter the exact loyalty income number(since it seems we can’t fully agree on that), it was much faster, and the current contract system just doesn’t work with it’s expected grind of 10-20 month to get all R15, if not more!

 

Such a long grind works in EVE online, but not in this game. This game is far too reppitive to keep a grind for that long. I could agree with 3 months to reach full loyalty, but more than half a year? no thanks.

AND you got the contracts as a nice bonus.

True, but that wasn’t much. I remember I was about halfway on R11>R12 rep when I hit R12 loyalty. But indeed, that should be factored, but I can’t remember the exact numbers.

Let’s say 800 games instead of those >900 (about 1/9th less grind). Still pretty crazy in comparison to the current system where it took me something around 100-200 games to hit R15 from R10.