Ship Bonuses in the New Matchmaking System (Discussion)

[2165807]

12 hours ago, xKostyan said:

So the the tablet at the bottom calculates survivability of the ship per dmg type (Crit/Explosions are to be ignored here, since no modifications are present)

Prometheus Fire has 55 resistances points included into calculations. Values that truly represents survivability of a ship are on EHP rows for hull, shields and Combined.

As you can see for yourself Sparks Hull, even after “OMG OP BONUSES!1!1” is slightly tankier than Prom’s

wouldn’t you get higher values with the Prom, when you would switch the kinetic to a Armor Plate (not that I would recommend it)

1 hour ago, xKostyan said:

OR how about you do it? Maybe for once you will have a proper data backing up your claims. And why are you jumping form “Oh r10s are so much better than r15!” to “do the math for r12 vs r15”? On top of that we all already agreed that 11-13s need a bit more tuning with bonuses values.

On 07/11/2016 at 1:52 PM, John161 said:

Imo this the bonuses are just bullshit:

Spark(r15): 4k DPS 27% crit chance and 121%crit dmg = 5306.8dps

8391 Hull, 124pts resistances (and I didn’t get my rank resistances 

Orelus(r12): 4.2k DPS 37% crit chance and 103% crit dmg = 5880dps

8461 Hull, 124pts resistances on EM and Thermal, 94 on kinetic + a 50% bonus I really get(idk how they calc these 50% so I don’t do anything here)

Prometheus Fire(r10): 3kdmg + 1k rank  bonus, 33% crit c, 80% crit d = 5056dps

So r12 ships are now stronger then r15… (and r12 has the same modules only 3 missing implants)

 

just lowering the bonus a bit would be the best they can do (or giving r15 the bonus they should get)

[8292596]

You don’t understand at all what I said here.

I’m just trying to tell you that you can’t say “This one is better” when you take radically different builds. The only case where you can prove that one ship is more powerful then another is when they have the exact same build. 

All my example are done following this principle. I compared Spark and Prometheus on the same build : Nothing equipped and passives ignored. And I used some data to prove my point that a raw r10 is better than a raw r15.

But you did not, so there is a HUGE flaw in your data : Items balance. The base principle of your datas is the ship balance is perfect. Which is not. That is why a comparison is between two ships is only valid with the exact same passives/build.

 

Ship/Build balance is out topic here. The goal is to evaluate if the bonus is too much, not anything else.

1 hour ago, xKostyan said:

OR how about you do it? Maybe for once you will have a proper data backing up your claims. And why are you jumping form “Oh r10s are so much better than r15!” to “do the math for r12 vs r15”? On top of that we all already agreed that 11-13s need a bit more tuning with bonuses values.

Let me quote myself :

Quote

And in the end, they completely reversed the balance in r10-r15. I mean, t4 and t5 ships have always been close to each other, and r13-r14-r15 considered to be equals.

And with this patch, r10-r12>r13>r14>r15

I’m just trying to give another example that follow this rule.

 

Reread what I said and take into consideration that it is meant to be as general as possible.

My post wasn’t meant to compare Prometheus Fire to Spark.

It was a comparison between a nameless r10 fighter against another nameless r15 fighter. 

And the conclusion was that a raw r10 ship is stronger then a raw r15 ship because of that buff. Which mean that the buff is too much.

 

 

Why ?

r15 ship have base hull/shield 10% higher then a r10

r10 have 35 more omni resist which is more then the 10% higher hull/shield. 

r10 base tank > r15 base tank

r15 deals approximately 40% more damage because implants (too much build specific to enter in real calculations) with conditions.

r10 get a 40% damage buff with no condition.

Because of conditions, r10 damage > r15 damage.

 

Here, r15 can use his bonus slot to try to compensate the difference. But it have only one bonus slot. Unless one slot can compensate the difference of both hull and shield tanking AND the fact that r15 implants have conditions, then r10 > r15.

We can’t go further than this because it would be build specific, which we don’t want. But in the current state of the game, we can all agree that one item won’t give 25 omni resist and a bit of damage.

So right now r10 > r15 in general.

[xKostyan]

38 minutes ago, Swifter43021 said:

You don’t understand at all what I said here.

I’m just trying to tell you that you can’t say “This one is better” when you take radically different builds. The only case where you can prove that one ship is more powerful then another is when they have the exact same build. 

All my example are done following this principle. I compared Spark and Prometheus on the same build : Nothing equipped and passives ignored. And I used some data to prove my point that a raw r10 is better than a raw r15.

But you did not, so there is a HUGE flaw in your data : Items balance. The base principle of your datas is the ship balance is perfect. Which is not. That is why a comparison is between two ships is only valid with the exact same passives/build.

Oh pardon me for not flying naked ship in my games.

As i said before the actual game play is not happening on a virtual ship models in a hanger with spread sheets, the game is revolving around what is encountered in the game and that is what it is balanced around, naked promF is better than naked Sprk, who cares? Are you gonna fly those ships naked? No, so why would you even consider that? Everything is about match results, and you can not do general you must be specific Prometheus Fire is The only r10 Empire gunship, so All you could compare it to Spark/Lightbringer/Mjolnir, in fact there are not that many ships in the game that can be directly compared by Faction-role as R10 vs R15

Prometheus Fire, Wolf MKII, Tormentor 

And that is it, everything else goes as R10 vs r14s or R11s vs R15s as sides of the spread. And really hope you are not going to compare cross factions and cross roles cause that be simply dumb.

Everything comes down to what you take into the battle, period.

 

38 minutes ago, John161 said:

wouldn’t you get higher values with the Prom, when you would switch the kinetic to a Armor Plate (not that I would recommend it)

just lowering the bonus a bit would be the best they can do (or giving r15 the bonus they should get)

Yes, but we both know that be actually worse for ships performance in battle most of the times.

[xKostyan]

1 hour ago, John161 said:

Imo this the bonuses are just bullshit:

Spark(r15): 4k DPS 27% crit chance and 121%crit dmg = 5306.8dps

8391 Hull, 124pts resistances (and I didn’t get my rank resistances  

Orelus(r12): 4.2k DPS 37% crit chance and 103% crit dmg = 5880dps

8461 Hull, 124pts resistances on EM and Thermal, 94 on kinetic + a 50% bonus I really get(idk how they calc these 50% so I don’t do anything here)

Prometheus Fire(r10): 3kdmg + 1k rank  bonus, 33% crit c, 80% crit d = 5056dps

So r12 ships are now stronger then r15… (and r12 has the same modules only 3 missing implants)

Here are the mirror fits for Railguns

Spark has the spread on DMG boost, goes 37%->47% due to r13-3 implant, Orelus can not equip r15 Missiles.

 

Hull

Orelus —> 27821–27931–21254

Spark-----> 22192–22302–22302

 

Shield

Orelus —> 10621–7587–9109

Spark ------> 8556–5348–6952

 

So at the end:

• Dmg is the same

• Orelus has slightly better tank

• Spark has r14 implant

• Spark can use r15 Missiles

 

And that is why I said befor and will repeat again that rank bonuses are need slight tuning, and tuning is needed for r12-r13 the most R10/R11s are imho fine and current difference of R12s vs R15 is imho not that much of a big deal (except Destroyers) and as anything it promotes to use both in same line up

 

[8292596]

2 hours ago, xKostyan said:

Oh pardon me for not flying naked ship in my games.

As i said before the actual game play is not happening on a virtual ship models in a hanger with spread sheets, the game is revolving around what is encountered in the game and that is what it is balanced around, naked promF is better than naked Sprk, who cares? Are you gonna fly those ships naked? No, so why would you even consider that? Everything is about match results, and you can not do general you must be specific Prometheus Fire is The only r10 Empire gunship, so All you could compare it to Spark/Lightbringer/Mjolnir, in fact there are not that many ships in the game that can be directly compared by Faction-role as R10 vs R15

Prometheus Fire, Wolf MKII, Tormentor 

Take 2 numbers A and B where A > B

Now add a number X to both A and B.

A+X can’t be < B+X

A and B are naked r10/r15 ships.

X is the items. Same build on both.

X isn’t really equal for both A and B, it’s slightly bigger for B. But not enough to compensate how A > B.

 

Naked ship is the best representation because if you equip the exact same thing on both ship, the one with the best “naked ship” is the best ship in the end. If not, then it’s because they don’t have the exact same build (read here passive slots and passive buff too).

So what my example means is that, if they add a r10 Empire gunship with 25% passive damage, 30 thermal passive resist, 3 CPU, 3 Hull, 2 Capacitor, then Spark can’t be tankier/have more DPS then this ship if you fit the same thing of both.

Basically that means r10 > r15. 

 

1 hour ago, xKostyan said:

Here are the mirror fits for Railguns

Values are wrong.

Spark have a base damage buff of 25. +7 from r12, + max 10 from r13 + 3 from r15 = 45 not 47

And fine, that’s true. Once Spark have 8kills/Assist, it have more DPS. Until he dies and have to stack again from 0. But before he get these 8 assists/kills, Orelus have more DPS.

8 without dying is A LOT (Or you’re facing aces, but then you can kill them with a rank 1 ship). So in a real fight, Orelus will be more efficient. More tank and usually more damage. Unless for you those 150 bonus damage from missiles change everything.

Don’t forget that before Spark stack his r13 passive, it have only 35% against 42% for Orelus. Which easily compensate 150 damage from missiles for quite some time.

Oh, and Orelus mods consume 20% less. Doesn’t change much, but it’s still here.

 

Orelus > Spark

[xKostyan]

5 hours ago, Swifter43021 said:

Take 2 numbers A and B where A > B

Now add a number X to both A and B.

A+X can’t be < B+X

A and B are naked r10/r15 ships.

X is the items. Same build on both.

X isn’t really equal for both A and B, it’s slightly bigger for B. But not enough to compensate how A > B.

 

Naked ship is the best representation because if you equip the exact same thing on both ship, the one with the best “naked ship” is the best ship in the end. If not, then it’s because they don’t have the exact same build (read here passive slots and passive buff too).

So what my example means is that, if they add a r10 Empire gunship with 25% passive damage, 30 thermal passive resist, 3 CPU, 3 Hull, 2 Capacitor, then Spark can’t be tankier/have more DPS then this ship if you fit the same thing of both.

Basically that means r10 > r15. 

Buddy you are free to use your imaginary R10 ship, in your imaginary game and then imagine to complain about imaginary imbalance between R10 and R15 ships. In this reality you have failed to prove that Prometheus Fire R10 is any better than Spark R15 Under current game conditions and meta.

 

6 hours ago, Swifter43021 said:

Values are wrong.

Spark have a base damage buff of 25. +7 from r12, + max 10 from r13 + 3 from r15 = 45 not 47

And fine, that’s true. Once Spark have 8kills/Assist, it have more DPS. Until he dies and have to stack again from 0. But before he get these 8 assists/kills, Orelus have more DPS.

8 without dying is A LOT (Or you’re facing aces, but then you can kill them with a rank 1 ship). So in a real fight, Orelus will be more efficient. More tank and usually more damage. Unless for you those 150 bonus damage from missiles change everything.

Don’t forget that before Spark stack his r13 passive, it have only 35% against 42% for Orelus. Which easily compensate 150 damage from missiles for quite some time.

Oh, and Orelus mods consume 20% less. Doesn’t change much, but it’s still here.

 

Orelus > Spark

I derped and calculated R15-1 as 5% instead of 3% dmg bonus, here is the new table

Does not really change anything. In game realities the dmg difference is absolutely insignificant and it comes down who has better accuracy. 

The difference between Spark and Orelus boils down to one have better straight tank and another have r13-r14 implants for utility, and stronger missiles.

And yet again I agree that R12s need slight bonus tuning, that was never a question, question was a how much, since you keep skewing the amount of power with your imaginary numbers

 

[xKostyan]

6 hours ago, Swifter43021 said:

8 without dying is A LOT (Or you’re facing aces, but then you can kill them with a rank 1 ship)

Just a hint, if it is hard for you, it does not mean it is hard for others

[17324559]

TBH - I’m still trying to figure out if I like this or not. However - I would love a little more of BIG BANNERS with tiers listing, cause people don’t know about it. Yesterday I saw a Raptor in R15 CtB…

PS. it is possible to make few kills in T5 ”)

[system]

I still think giving bonuses to players based on the ships they use instead of their skills was a mistake. Give extra support to those that really need it.

[xXThunderFlameXx]

.

[32005747]

So… now the r15 are weaker and do les dps than a r11

if you work hard for get a r 15 ship now is the worst ship WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[8292596]

5 hours ago, xKostyan said:

Buddy you are free to use your imaginary R10 ship, in your imaginary game and then imagine to complain about imaginary imbalance between R10 and R15 ships. In this reality you have failed to prove that Prometheus Fire R10 is any better than Spark R15 Under current game conditions and meta.

There’s only one thing to describe my feeling right now : 

One more time, and I give up. You don’t even try to understand that it’s not how balance works.

 

So let me summarize it to end this topic. 

We agreed that prometheus is really close to spark for both tank and dps. 

Again, we agreed that Orelus is really close to spark on the fields (and better in any competitive play or Survival mode because r13 is harder to stack). 

 

While for you it may seems like perfect balance : ships are close to each other. 

Me, I see in it huge flaw in balance. 

How ? 

Both Orelus and Prometheus Fire don’t have 9% extra passive damage and 30 thermal resist. They aren’t supposed to have the same tank and damage. They should have a lot less in comparison. 

 

So why does a mobile infantry like Prometheus Fire can be as tanky and powerful as a heavy tank like Spark while still being mobile ? 

Because unbalanced buff. 

 

 

And finally :

5 hours ago, xKostyan said:

Just a hint, if it is hard for you, it does not mean it is hard for others

I could explain why it’s not how balance works once again, but I don’t want to enter too much in the details. 

2 things :

League, nasa vs ninja. In such a competitive game, do you really think you can do 8 kills/assists without dying once, and keep a perfect score until the end of the fight? 

Because the buff is coming to league too. 

 

Second, let’s admit that the matchmaker is totally unbalanced, and you did the same score as niripas in 7 minutes. 

So you took 3.5 minutes to get 10 kills/assists. Half of the fight length. Now for 3.5 minutes you’ll have 3% more DPS. 

BUT, for 3.5 minutes Orelus had up to 7% more DPS. Do you understand why it means? And I took a unbalanced score as an example. 

 

 

That’s it for me. I give up here. 

[xKostyan]

On 11/13/2016 at 4:52 AM, Swifter43021 said:

There’s only one thing to describe my feeling right now : 

One more time, and I give up. You don’t even try to understand that it’s not how balance works.

 

So let me summarize it to end this topic. 

We agreed that prometheus is really close to spark for both tank and dps. 

Again, we agreed that Orelus is really close to spark on the fields (and better in any competitive play or Survival mode because r13 is harder to stack). 

 

While for you it may seems like perfect balance : ships are close to each other. 

Me, I see in it huge flaw in balance. 

How ? 

Both Orelus and Prometheus Fire don’t have 9% extra passive damage and 30 thermal resist. They aren’t supposed to have the same tank and damage. They should have a lot less in comparison. 

 

So why does a mobile infantry like Prometheus Fire can be as tanky and powerful as a heavy tank like Spark while still being mobile ? 

Because unbalanced buff. 

No balance by numbers only done during the time when there is no system in place, after it goes live balance is done by actual experiences in real scenarios and heavily driven by meta-game and players, this is why there is always a reference to “we are collection statistics”, because if something is OP on paper, and yet 900 out of 1000 games it sees the light it utterly sux it will be tuned sooner or later, which will drive the meta game shift and will start the cycle again, that is how balancing works in PvP games. I have no clue where you got your idea of balancing by imaginary number in a vacuum, but that is not how things done in any of the live PvP projects.

 

No we don’t Prometheus F is not really close in DPS - Orelus and Spark are, because when you start doing diving with overdrive and overcharge, especially with commands/tacklers around, dps gap will grow, on top of that i made an example on an Ion beams on the initial minimum dmg tick, if you take into consideration Dmg grow on Ions, you will see how dps gap grows on a maximum dmg side even before you start doing bursting

No Prometheus F is not a mobile infantry. Mobility is something defining a tactical re-positioning, Apollo is mobile infantry, not Prometheus F - Strafe bonus is an Agility and not Mobility it helps in fighting but it greatly benefit mid range positioning builds.

 

And no, we do not agree that Orelus is better competitively, there are 2 major things working for Spark in “competitive” engagements

1. 3rd CPU slot

2. R14 implant

 

3rd CPU slot allows to equip a ProtonWall - yes even gun ships equip proton walls on various occasions and still have 2 slots for 2x TTC or 1 TTC and a Horizon for example, If Orelus is fixed with his crit bonus that replaces 3rd CPU, but in those cases you are not always want an Infrared - for example spark with 2x TTC and proton wall will outdps Orelus with 1x TTC and Proton wall on a dive (overcharge+overdrive). Competitive game-play is made of times when it is just applying pressure and times when it is critical to have maximum output to make that kill. Yes Orelus has better tanking, but that is can be managed with dmg control during pressure, when you are getting full enemy attention R14 and proton wall are invaluable and literally life saving, where mere 10-15% survivability points would not matter at all.

 

 

On 11/13/2016 at 4:52 AM, Swifter43021 said:

Second, let’s admit that the matchmaker is totally unbalanced, and you did the same score as niripas in 7 minutes. 

So you took 3.5 minutes to get 10 kills/assists. Half of the fight length. Now for 3.5 minutes you’ll have 3% more DPS. 

BUT, for 3.5 minutes Orelus had up to 7% more DPS. Do you understand why it means? And I took a unbalanced score as an example. 

 

 

That’s it for me. I give up here. 

Matchmaker is fine, and I see no reason to have Orelus and Spark using the same builds - to each it’s own, before patch i wouldn’t even consider bringing r12 in my line up, now i have Spark and Orelus covering different situations in the game in their own way and that is what this patch is all about - more variety. 

[ORCA1911]

I’ll miss the tiers, those crude 3 after 3 after 3 ranks system is beginning to seem as the best one together with the crude 3 rank MM lol

[1670570]

I’m happy with the direction of these matchmaking changes.

[1670570]

On 11/7/2016 at 8:04 AM, CinnamonFake said:

You should get 20% on rank 15 as well. If you’re sure that you’re not getting any, then bug report is expected. With logs, as always. The main point here was to increase living time on highest ranks.

I don’t know how I feel about handing out free survivability like that. I guess it helps some ships but if I can lean on that 20 or 30% then I can make my build more offensive without losing anything. I hardly play anyway but regular players that know how to abuse the xxxx out of this are going to create yet another problem. a free 30% resists and 5% damage boost to some of my favorite ships and a 20% boost to my other favorite ships. just seems kind of silly.  The apollo for example is a complete beast of a gunship with its passive bonus and free 10% crit and you’ve given it 10% free damage and 40% hull and shield resists. I can run pretty much what I have on my spark but with a cruise module and be much more effective but the real bread and butter will be with that free crit you handed out to federation ships for going top speed, on top of all this other stuff.  You’ve more or less made certain r13 ships better than special project ships and certain r14/15’s, while I guess isn’t so bad, will create a problem of balance. Oh, and that 40% damage bonus r10’s get. lol. Phobos fire is now a welfare spark that may be doing more damage under the right circumstances.

[38547159]

On 2016-11-09 at 2:49 PM, Ironquest said:

Well, what about Players, that supported the game through buying bundles to craft those destroyers, but now have to get in line for a limited PvP spot? Those players pretty much bought something, they might not be able to use when they have time, and they would like too.

I mean, why even pressure players through these “events” into PvP, and/or buying bundles to manufacture destroyers, but then turn around and limit their access with those destroyers? They could have at least modified the daily tasks for either PvE, or the usage of other ships in PvP too.

Destroyers are very different types of ships from all the others. Although ever since they got added, and usable in PvP, people have been complaining about them in PvP since they are so very different. After that, they’ve just been tinkering, and tinkering to try to shoe horn in a ship type designed to be very different into PvP, in ways that make it not as different, reduce their effectiveness, and to limit their numbers, so they have less effect. At which point you have to ask, what the heck was the point of adding them into PvP at all if they’re just going to keep doing that? They just keep trying to hammer that square peg, into a round hole, but refuse to accept that it’s not going to work out that well, perhaps it’s best to accept that, and allow people to make choices, rather than to keep trying to force the issue.

 

[17324559]

11 hours ago, Phoenix_Shi said:

something out of context

Please stay on topic.

[2890010]

In my opinion this system is the worst.
The ships in battles are all over the place. If you are playing in lower ranks you can’t do much.
If you a beginner you can’t even play pvp, literally no one plays pvp in under rank 5-6 they are playing ai coop.
And if you need wins for marathon or other missions good luck with that.
Now days it’s common that you can play 45-60 mins in pvp without a win (and I’m not just delighting in the skybox)
but this could be right if the battles were intense, but their not.

[39939376]

Changes in the Bonus System and Matchmaking have been made. We’re closely monitoring battles of all difficulties. And, of course, welcome to discussion ”)