removal of teamwork in T5 - 2 player squad waiting times

… If more players want to play together this situation won’t happen…

 

Before 1.2 Update waiting queues were long on high tiers even for solo players. When people were allowed to join during battle situation improved greatly (just my personal observation). Funny though soon we may not need dynamic-join at all because we’ll have many high tier active players.

 

My Point: This “Network effect” works both ways and currently affecting squads. Just like 1.2 - squads play needs inspirational kick push. Squad is how you bring your friends to the game.

Wrong example, I wrote about 2 men squads only, no one intentionally cut their number. If more players want to play together this situation won’t happen. I’m not happy about it, but it’s a fact.

Players are now punished for playing in squads, what do you expect? Why would they want to queue for 15-20 mins to get in a game that lasts 5-7 minutes and on top of that is often ruined by randoms who belong in lower tiers, but tier-rush all the time in order to get the ships they get owned by?

 

If it is so encouraging why we have extremely low number of squads in random PvP now?

 

The major problem for my time zone and why there are no squads is because of the wait times.  Your lucky if another squad is on.  If you were to remove the requirement of “there must be another squad for you to get a game with two players”.  I definitely see the squad numbers increase.  This mode (pvp) is extremely arcade based in nature.  Why would I want to wait 8-20 min for another squad to come along, if they come along when I can get a game in 10-30 sec.  More squads would appear as if you removed that rule.

If it is so encouraging why we have extremely low number of squads in random PvP now?

 

There are so few squads in PvP because no one wants to bother, because they know that no one is squadding. Let’s look at the times when you could regularly see squads in all tiers of PvP.

 

  1. Early beta  - You could see so many squads in early beta because there were no squad restrictions at all. You could have a team of 3 4-man squads vs a team of pugs, and not too many people were complaining. Squads were so common simply because everyone knew you could get a game as a squad with no additional wait time.

 

  1. Late beta/full release  - This is a special case, as the only tier in which you found squads commonly was tier 3. But tier 3 was so popular for squads because it was the most balanced tier at the time (player skill, team balance, and squad balance). Very few games in tier 3 back then were lopsided or heavily unbalanced like most games today are.

 

  1. New squad changes in July, 2015 - This was when the changes for squad restrictions were tested (2-mans didn’t need an opposing squad to get a game, only one squad per team). This change was a phenomenal success, as I saw squads in every tier I played, regardless of the time of day. This was taken down with the promise made that it would be reimplemented when the bugs were fixed, but you devs have not said a word regarding this, and you went the complete opposite direction of what was successful for you in the past.

 

Now, you will rarely see any squads in PvP, in any tier. This is not because it isn’t fun, or because people find it more balanced. This is because you as devs have failed to look at the big picture. You only look at the here and now of complaints from the new players who were unfortunate enough to face a 4-man death squad (which were in the vast minority of all squads). Instead of looking at the big picture and realizing this isn’t the right solution, even temporarily, you chose to make everyone suffer.

 

Nuke wrote a public opinion poll on the SC subreddit. It poses a question of “if you could have one of these squad changes, which would you prefer?” While both would be fantastic, the devs have already shown through their lying to us that they won’t give us both, despite how successful it was in the test back in July.

Here’s the poll: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarConflict/comments/40p40j/squadplay_poll_responses_requested

okay, i add rant to this comment aswell, doom

 

* two squads of the same corp can’t go in because “they could abuse the system”. this very old rule still haunts the game.

* it was never tested to have 2 squads without squad opposition, and the rest with mixed squad opposition. all squad mm was pre-queue, again putting lots of pressure on “not the killer squad” players who formed a squad.

* i never saw squads late join, for this fact.

* i never saw attempts of internal squad matchmaking (assume everyone is in a virtual squad), to have similar queues like warthunder

* the raise in population can have different reasons, especially when it comes to our year long fight to reduce early grind. seasons alone also change population, and it didnt feel as crowded as last christmas to be honest, but maybe i am wrong.

* the t3 gauntlet got successfully removed, with some psychology work in the community aswell, but instead, there is no endgame, just new carrots; so the negative effect is, stagnation in large corporations, stagnation in endgame population; T5 holds up for now tho, with vets getting more and more casual.

 

* instead of making the game more transparent, it got just less transparent, again to prevent abuse, instead of fixing the abuse. this is bad software design.

* most of the population is only interested because of the carrot. this is bad game design, in every game design school you wanna go. I did studied it, I am not just self taught, so at least, I can judge this in a comment, right? carrots have reasons, and can be used, but they are not the only way to please and motivate players.

* pvp is the core of your game meta, and most of the progression happens outside of it. so why are the ragequitters so important again?

* having nobody complain is the best way into your software grave. complaints should be embraced. except nothing else comes. then you got another problem.

* technical limitations to increase item limits and friend limits is either bad gui design or bad database/network design, take a pick. doesn’t change it to be a current limitation, and maybe back then it was a good design, i know. but as software engineer (with exp), i can tell you, you can solve this, if you want to.

* you (probably) listened more to people who have big mouths and try to advance their position or importance in the past, i dont blame you or them for that, since its natural, and even important, but you gotta admit those events if they were mistakes, at least silently to yourself, internally. otherwise you will never lose the defensive and arrogant tone towards the community in general. admitting, some problems is what good dev teams do, just take a look at the others. Well, you did some of that too, it’s more of a general hint I get told myself over my life once or twice.

 

  • I admit, with the arrogance sometimes coming from the community, even myself, I do understand tho if you snap back - but it is something that could really get better!

 

* really, take a look at others, not because they do all things better than you, but because, its free experience for you to learn from them.

* you assume stupid players, so it’s what you get. Instead, expect smart players who figure you out, and only try to explain it to those who need help to get there.

* a game designer, that assumes he understands his game completely, has designed a bad game, because nobody could beat him in it. never act that way.

* you assume the niche market of space games is a desperate one, and assume that’s why you don’t succeed, albeit it is clear for anyone with a sense of “theme-art” that scifi is on the rise, with more expensive sci fi shows and games produced than ever before, fantasy is on its way out. You have an excellent basement with your world-design, but that’s it, the more you get into the storyline of your game, the more it feels like placeholders. At least, if you do Stargate, be humble about self-humor. It’s why it worked being less serious. You sometimes get this right. You keep doors open for players to fill. It’s an idea. But quality writers will not spend too much time on proprietary licensed work without incentive…

* I find it great that you take players from the community and give them tasks and opportunities, but also dont forget, you basicly cannot expect proper criticism from someone on your payroll, or in a state of idealistic fandom. It’s highly unnatural. But I have to admit, you really try to grow with this in a way, it’s also not entirely your fault, that some things play out like they play out.

* the game is still really addictive and fun, just please don’t destroy it’s most shining qualities, like being a teamgame, completely.

* have some balls as game designers ffs, “playing” is the base brain mechanic of “learning”; this is such a huge change in science, since it is also admitting, that playing is of huge importance for intelligence, including a social stigma on it, because we grew up in the belief, only kids play games, with hundreds of insane managers playing games as adults on a global scene, because they do not realize their own need for it; most people do not believe that even today… game designers have a socially very important job of creating challenging but fun content, where we can express our needs for creativity, smartness and sportsmanship, which should also teach in an easy way, even if its just mouse reflexes and working together. this is a huge responsibility you can be proud of, its not a shame to play games as an adolescent, or adult finally nowadays; nor should it be a shame to love to play your own game as a developer; love to play your own game, if you do not, challenge yourself again to do it, and you will see the problems more clearly. It should not just be fun at the start, it should be fun in general. That’s smart, and that works. Always.

* You can always extend the mmo part of the game in open space in a way that goes away from pvp for achievers or veterans, or entire corps to grind, and therefore keep the pvp development steady and calculable. without the possibility, of players reaching fully fittable ships in at least 1-2 years, without the need for progression at all times, to play the now designed endgame content, your leagues, dreads and tourneys will never reach their full potential. think about endgame, instead of further putting goals somewhere, nobody wants to go anymore. It’s boring!

Situation with Leagues has already improved, more and more people play this mode, yes, there are some restrictions (besides I admit that time is not convenient for North America), but they are really needed for squad gameplay in Star Conflict. Feedback and stats approve that game has become more friendly for newbies. 

About 2 men squads, they are still OP against solo players, that’s why we can’t let them queue with others. Extremely low amount of them shows that not so many people want to play squads in random pvp now.

Not true, leagues are linear games, with no variety.

There is 2 outcomes:

Either " Defend the LRF"

or " Beacon Rush"

 

This is hardly any supplement, you should really start playing your own game.

 

 

Extremely low amount of them shows that not so many people want to play squads in random pvp now.

 

 

This is so wrong, of course no one has interest, if you wait 5 minutes for a tiny game with Ace enemys because all the people who want to have a challenge, just don’t play anymore. I only played Leages because of the monocrystal mission, and so did everybody else.

It’s not like 2man squads are the pinnacle of enjoyment.

I see nothing has changed here.

It’s really really sad, that not even t5 can get normal squads, i still can’t believe that you actually believe that this is your solution.

Absolutely awful, the new players are at a significant disadvantage, they never got to experience a team. If i had never known what teamwork is, i would have stopped playing this long ago, there are more effective ways to masturbate.

ah, and about new players.

I invited like 5 friends into this game, including my brother. Until now, i could NEVER, NOT A SINGLE time get a game with them.

What shall i say to them?

Yeah just grind your way up to t5 and then we can play 2 squads?

When people who start the game, ask me: " how can we play together" and i tell them, that we cant, thats when they leave.

 

I really dont understand this. In march 2013 when i started, there was 4 man squads all over the place, i would always play in a 2man squad with g4b, get raped hard but eventually we could beat them. By trying stuff, being bold & incredibly stupid, but thats how you learn this game. Never in my life i would have thought about going to the devs and rant about squads. I was glad that there was always someone better than me, doing good teamwork, from wich i could learn. (and i played with 13 fps on a 12" screen, and still i felt i could compete and grow)

You seem to have gotten an influx of extremly lazy people, and probably because of their nice parfume you decided to listen to them and agree that that must be the root of all evil.

This game no longer promotes tactics and usage of skills in a group for newer players, who do not have access to Tier V leagues as well as other veterans or elite pilots.

 

I used to play with many people together in PvP.

They almost all left now. 90% of all known contacts on Steam isn’t actively playing the game anymore, but they would like to.

They only come for Sunday for T3 Tournament GS events, but not even regularly anymore.

Reason - new squadding system, which prevents the same mechanics that we used to have before

 

 

This problem can be solved very simple.

 

Re-implementation of squads for (rank 11-15: Tier IV and V), rank 10 and below excluded

Inclusion of 2 men squads in a team for such ranks, there is no restrictions.

3-men squad can face 2-men squad as well, or the same sized squad

4-men squad can only face 3 men squads or the same sized squad

The new ship locking business where you can’t buy new ships if you don’t have a certain amount from before them, is awful.

I have several friends that just level one or two ship lines in the different factions and they are about to leave because of it.

Also, I love the destroyers, but at them moment, encountering them in battle is just like facing a guard that can’t regen as fast.

I like them but the removal of some of their modules puts them at a severe disadvantage. If you think that they will be OP, just make it a super expensive blueprint and be done.

As far as other things, I suggest that you bring back four-man squads and revert the new patch’s levelling restrictions.

I’m not sure why you think that this is a good idea. All this does is anger low-ranking players and give them more reason not to play.

Back in the day, people would actually play, and liked it! Sure things were imbalanced, but people stayed! That’s what matters at this point! Bring in new players and give them a reason to stay! Give them an attainable goal to work to! Give them a reason to want a grind instead of be required to grind, regardless.

Let me enlighten you with one very important point: grinding for things is not fun.

“Whaaaat? How is this possible? I thought that players loved to be forced to grind in games to get anything!”

-Devs

The new ship locking business where you can’t buy new ships if you don’t have a certain amount from before them, is awful.

I have several friends that just level one or two ship lines in the different factions and they are about to leave because of it.

 

This is a good thing. We need to slow down tier rushers as they are wrecking high tier game play. At least this way they get to learn some of the other ship roles, and god forbid, might actually enjoy flying those ships. It’s not even like they have to get a silly amount, seems fair to me. T1 and T2 are pretty quick to level up, and at T3 there is a bigger population and the game is fun. some very good ships there. What is the rush? T4 is the same, some very good ships there, and is probably better balanced than T5 as they aren’t facing SP ships.

 

Anyway, back to the OP, I like what Koromac suggested 2 posts up.

I say bring back t5 4 man squads and let them do 4v4s vs each other. Something like league practice with no randoms. Better than nothing, right? 

Situation with Leagues has already improved, more and more people play this mode, yes, there are some restrictions (besides I admit that time is not convenient for North America), but they are really needed for squad gameplay in Star Conflict. Feedback and stats approve that game has become more friendly for newbies. 

About 2 men squads, they are still OP against solo players, that’s why we can’t let them queue with others. Extremely low amount of them shows that not so many people want to play squads in random pvp now.

You remind me of the big publishers and Horror.

 

“Nobody wants horror games now!”

“How do you know?”

“Well, since we stopped selling horror games, people have stopped buying them!”

 

People do want to be able to squad in random PvP, but they can’t because you screwed them over. Huge wait times makes people stop squadding, which pushes wait times up for the rest, which means more of them stop, and so on.

 

Squadding was the norm when there were no restrictions on squads. What does that tell you?

2 IMPORTANT ISSUES.

 

 

Today I really wanted to play T5 PvP again, without going solo. After more than 20 minutes of waiting, it ruined my mood and squadmate’s as well. We both have a Premium license. I do not want to delve into this more, but…

I may have no other choice, but to write a negative review in the future, just because of this issue alone.

I will wait, that it will get corrected in the next update 1.3.2 or 1.3.3. Premium License cannot be fully used, if you’re not allowed to play in squads! PvE does not grant you full access to all contracts!

I want to play in squads, but if I cannot play in full 4 and 3-men squads, at least let me play in end-tiers with 2-men squad with no restriction! It is suppose to be end-rank anyway!

You didn’t dramatically touch or change the squadding mechanics for over 3 years. Now, you removed it in such way, that you ruined the whole mechanics. Squads do not exist anymore in a proper term for the PvP.

I feel cheated and tricked in some way. Hopefully you will gather enough sense and understanding that you will do the right thing in the end. That means, not ignore this issue, but address it ASAP.

If you made it your mind already, then I may just very well quit completely.

 

 

For League mode there is another huge problem! Inactive League leader and time restrictions makes it impossible to play at will, because you cannot invite new players, if you’re not the leader.

We are losing advantage, because someone’s computer may have gone haywire or something may have happened to such person.

Our Main Leader is offline and we cannot play in his group, because many players left our League and now they cannot be brought back without him. I cannot re-invite them myself.

We cannot maintain our advantage on the Leaderboards, because of this stupid, ignored, or not well thought mechanic.

Who is responsible for this unforeseen situation? Lezort?

We are stuck in League. At least there should be an option, where you could invite new players, even when League leader is offline or unavailable. Whoever did this, had to be smoking Vodka instead of drinking it, or both!

 

 

I will repeat: I just want two changes!

 

REMOVE SQUAD RESTRICTIONS FOR:

 

  • rank 11-14 (T4 and T5), or at least rank 13-15 (T5 only) should not be affected by this restriction

  • 2 men squad can play against regular randoms, or another 2 men squad

 

 

League System: Allow regular players to invite new players into the Wing or League group, without the Leader, just in order to progress without any setbacks.

 

Screenshot: (T5 PvP waiting time)

2960yfs.png

I’ve said before, 2-man squads shouldn’t need another 2-man squad to balance them - but there should be balance if there’s more than one!

 

1 squad vs none is fine.

 

2 vs 1 is fine.

 

2 vs 0 is not.

2 IMPORTANT ISSUES.

 

 

Today I really wanted to play T5 PvP again, without going solo. After more than 20 minutes of waiting, it ruined my mood and squadmate’s as well. We both have a Premium license. I do not want to delve into this more, but…

I may have no other choice, but to write a negative review in the future, just because of this issue alone.

I will wait, that it will get corrected in the next update 1.3.2 or 1.3.3. Premium License cannot be fully used, if you’re not allowed to play in squads! PvE does not grant you full access to all contracts!

I want to play in squads, but if I cannot play in full 4 and 3-men squads, at least let me play in end-tiers with 2-men squad with no restriction! It is suppose to be end-rank anyway!

You didn’t dramatically touch or change the squadding mechanics for over 3 years. Now, you removed it in such way, that you ruined the whole mechanics. Squads do not exist anymore in a proper term for the PvP.

I feel cheated and tricked in some way. Hopefully you will gather enough sense and understanding that you will do the right thing in the end. That means, not ignore this issue, but address it ASAP.

If you made it your mind already, then I may just very well quit completely.

 

 

For League mode there is another huge problem! Inactive League leader and time restrictions makes it impossible to play at will, because you cannot invite new players, if you’re not the leader.

We are losing advantage, because someone’s computer may have gone haywire or something may have happened to such person.

Our Main Leader is offline and we cannot play in his group, because many players left our League and now they cannot be brought back without him. I cannot re-invite them myself.

We cannot maintain our advantage on the Leaderboards, because of this stupid, ignored, or not well thought mechanic.

Who is responsible for this unforeseen situation? Lezort?

We are stuck in League. At least there should be an option, where you could invite new players, even when League leader is offline or unavailable. Whoever did this, had to be smoking Vodka instead of drinking it, or both!

 

 

I will repeat: I just want two changes!

 

REMOVE SQUAD RESTRICTIONS FOR:

 

  • rank 11-14 (T4 and T5), or at least rank 13-15 (T5 only) should not be affected by this restriction

  • 2 men squad can play against regular randoms, or another 2 men squad

 

 

League System: Allow regular players to invite new players into the Wing or League group, without the Leader, just in order to progress without any setbacks.

I would support the squad restriction remove.

About the leagues, imo the problem is the group system.

The league team system makes the corps less important in the endgame.

So I would like to suggest to remove the League Teams and use Corps instead.

To let the intercorp gameplay in leagues, the Alliances would be a good solution.

Add Alliances to the game. The corps in the alliances can participate together in dread attacks, and leagues + add a new Alliance chat.

I hate the comedy b4 league games, kick XY from the league group, to take somebody else, create temp league group when we have 10+ players online.

We all in the same corp, we like to play together, but the stupid system doesn’t let us do it easily…

I agree with Gizmo.

 

The game currently lacks any good corp teamplay in the endgame. Dreads are only Ranks 7-12, but aren’t even corp exclusive. For defenses, you can grab whoever you want, from whatever corp, and pub-queuing takes away any corp-only aspect.

 

The current League system makes it almost impossible to play with lots of members in your corp regularly, unless you form a new League team every day. The current League teams are only 7 players, and only 5 can play at once. What if all 7 are online, and all want to play? Then you have a dilemma, because those 2 who get chosen to not be in the wing that day are out of luck. If you remove League teams, and instead make it corps/alliances like Gizmo suggests, you then have no restrictions on leaving someone out. If you have more than 5 online, you can make multiple wings.

 

And please add alliances to the game.

Yeah the current system for Leagues is not flexible enough, or maybe even straying from it’s original purpose (at least seen from a corp-reinforcing point of view).

What is League meant to be and do? Is it supposed to bring a small, tight group of people, who share the same goal and ambition, together and play to improve their unique teamplay and have fun - if so, yes it is an interesting feature, BUT the mechanics/system highly depends on the leader’s presence, since only he/she can invite active people needed to play in this mode. It is very exhausting, and I’ve seen several examples where the group collapsed because leader was not online to invite people when needed to make a full group, but the current system also places big responsibility on the group as a whole and every individual in it - since activity is so important and has to be synchronized, but also the factors of group dynamics and shiproles are of fundamental nature in order to climb in team rating - and not lose points. 

Simply put, what is the point of such a team, when it can so easily collapse and it’s members scatter, because the pilots want a game, and mono crystal rewards?

The leader cannot be the only one with the power to invite active players to the team. It is simply too fragile a mechanic, and it also hinders the ones online ready to play - more planning/obligation and less play/action.  

 

So yes, in a way maybe it should follow the footsteps of Old Sector Conquest; it was easier and had more “purpose” to it, when playing with people in your own corp, and allies, versus other corps of different faction. 

I am just going to echo what people have said above. I really really miss squading up in PvP. 4 man squads were fun, especially when facing off against a ‘rival’ 4 man squad. Leagues are ok, but way too restrictive.

 

And just to add, the lack of squads is affecting everyone:

 

http://steamcommunity.com/app/212070/discussions/0/451850849196480575/

 

This is from a new player. What a surprise that he wants to play with his friend, who would have thought that people might want to do that!! Question, do you reckon they will stay or simply move onto another game where him and his mate can play together…?

Leagues would be a good thing it was not locked by time. Most of the time when I log on, leagues is not available.

Most of T5 gameplay would shift to there, if this was open 24/7. It could fix the squad issue in the upper ranks.

 

That’s not 100% certain because the issue of finding people online to be able to que. The list makes it hard to keep a squad.

The league size should allow more room, because it’s hard to get everyone on at the same time. 

A larger list will allow you more people top work with to easy be able to join a match.

 

Don’t know how to word it , but hopefully someone else gets what I am trying to say.

 

Not sure the match limit, but the leader should select who he wants to use before launching. That’s if there are more players in the league online than what the match allows.

This would work similar to the custom interface of before. Like a reserve.

I hate the squads and i dont support the topic, they were really op back in old times dont know about now but generally battles are well balanced more than before imo.