I was just thinking about this what happened yesterday:
Our squad of 3 players in R9s, with average DSR 1500, full purple gear, high win ratio and (was also on a long win streak), got matched
AGAINST
2 of our friends in squad in R9s, average DSR 1200 and a 1100 DSR pug, and they were both on a loss streak this day.
How the xxxx can they be in the same queue against us? This should never happen! And yet it is. All the xxxx time. And than later we get that game in same squad against R15. What the xxxx!
Does this seem fair to you devs? Are you reading this xxxx? Does this seem FUN to you? Does this seem BALANCED? What the xxxx are you doing xxxx around with the matchmaker tweaking? You could not have made it any more bad and ABSURD as it is right now.
Does this seem fair to you devs? Are you reading this xxxx? Does this seem FUN to you? Does this seem BALANCED? What the xxxx are you doing xxxx around with the matchmaker tweaking? You could not have made it any more bad and ABSURD as it is right now.
Fair? Well, they made the system, so yes, it’s fair.
Fun? to them? They’re just havin’ a giggle at this mess and still call it a success.
Balanced? Definitely, any T3 3/4-man team should be able to beat T5 scrubs with high DSR on both sides, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
I was just thinking about this what happened yesterday:
Our squad of 3 players in R9s, with average DSR 1500 and high win ratio (was also on a long win streak), got matched against 2 of our friends in squad with R9s, average DSR of 1200 and a 1100 DSR pug, and they were both on a loss streak this day.
I’d like to point out, that with purely fixed tiers, this (R9 vs R9, regardless of squads or DSR) would have happened anyway. And for that reason I personally am not fully supporting old kind of fixed tier system.
But current system definitely is not doing it’s job anyways, so it does start to feel (after playing with this system extensively), that even the old kind of fixed tier system at least gives less frustration and more challenge in total, as it seems and feels to be more fair.
Naturally some 3rd option would be better, that balances teams, but doesn’t mix up word ‘frustration’ with word ‘challenge’.
.
I must admit, that I have started to notice, that one CAN estimate how the team will perform by viewing the two first digits of DRS of all the team members on both teams. If your team is mainly 10s, while other team is around 12-13, it is easy to predict which team is more likely to win. It does seem to have clear correlation.
I still think that DRS is in micro level (for individual user) a rough stat and caution must be used when comparing two players. But on macro level (when viewing DRSses of full teams and comparing them), it starts to add up, and efficient predictions can be made according to them.
I was just thinking about this what happened yesterday:
Our squad of 3 players in R9s, with average DSR 1500, full purple gear, high win ratio and (was also on a long win streak), got matched
AGAINST
2 of our friends in squad in R9s, average DSR 1200 and a 1100 DSR pug, and they were both on a loss streak this day.
How the xxxx can they be in the same queue against us? This should never happen! And yet it is. All the xxxx time. And than later we get that game in same squad against R15. What the xxxx!
Does this seem fair to you devs? Are you reading this xxxx? Does this seem FUN to you? Does this seem BALANCED? What the xxxx are you doing xxxx around with the matchmaker tweaking? You could not have made it any more bad and ABSURD as it is right now.
YOUR SYSTEM IS NOT WORKING.
You just happened to be on top of the list, just that.
I suppose you were in a rank 9-15 game, and by sheer luck, got placed in a rank 9 game as top.
Yesterday we were 4 of us, playing rank 1 with one of our frieds who has just installed the game. We got into rank 1-5 games, and some of them we were against Neuron zealots, and the next one we were top of the line against all rank 1 ships.
But current system definitely is not doing it’s job anyways, so it does start to feel (after playing with this system extensively), that even the old kind of fixed tier system at least gives less frustration and more challenge in total, as it seems and feels to be more fair.
Naturally some 3rd option would be better, that balances teams, but doesn’t mix up word ‘frustration’ with word ‘challenge’.
[…]
You jsut made perfect sense why fixed tiers is better than the current f*ck up.
Let me add that re-introducing fixed tiers will push all the vets who scaled down to T3 from 4 and 5 back there. The reason is that picking a T4 ship will not automatically put you in T5 vs death squads anymore. That way, progressing to T5 will come closer to a ‘walk in the park’ than what we have now, so crying about T5 vets scaling down to T4 will also disappear smooth and fast (tho there is no much difference in skill there anymore, just raw ship power from implants, stats and slightly mods). In time (i give it mostly 1 month in the worst case scenario, 1-2 weeks at best) the fields will even out as they should be. I feel ok in T3 being beaten by other T3 and even T3 squads, because i know i fcked up somewhere. But when i get beaten by a T4/5 and being called a n00b, it just makes me go in my Wolf and grief them to show who has the clear higher skill. Or to make it even worse, i scale down in T2 and start griefing ‘the new recruits’ to prove the MM is awful (already done a few times and ended in rage and hate messages to troll back at).
In both system (mixed and fixed) if there is not enough players, MM will screw up, there is no solution other than having more people. Currently what MM does wrong is that it tries to put people in a match as fast as it can, even if it means 2 tiers differences (that should NOT happen).
But on the other side, in fixed tier, same thing, what will happen ? The squad of 1500 DSR will fight random 1000-1200 DSR pug because there is no other 1500DSR player available… Which is as bad as being matched against R15. This point isn’t an MM problem, it’s a playerbase problem.
I remember the time where I just want to show who the better pilot is, and take a rank 7 ship and beat the xxxx out a rank 9 with purples. Its not the gear, or the ship, its the skill. But when you put me against another full on tier, I cant win, not because im good, because the stats and the math is against me and the DPS will not cut it.
I remember the time where I just want to show who the better pilot is, and take a rank 7 ship and beat the xxxx out a rank 9 with purples. Its not the gear, or the ship, its the skill. But when you put me against another full on tier, I cant win, not because im good, because the stats and the math is against me and the DPS will not cut it.
How is that fun? How is that fair?
If you are matched against one full tier above is because either:
You are in a 3 or 4 men squad, so you can coordinate and take down bigger foes with ease.
You have best equipment, high skill rating, and a lot of victories, so you obviously, have the needed skill and equipment to face them.
I don’t see anything wrong here. As I said in another post, yesterday we were in a squad of 4, all flying rank 1 fighters, and we could take rank 4 and rank 5 players, just because we could coordinate, cover each other and focus fire. Even if one of us was a total newb1e.
In fact, since the MM keeps matching us against better ships and foes, we are working better as a team as before, because YOU NEED to work as a team to kill other guys in their better tier ships. So in fact, this MM is promoting skill, and that is what the pros here want isn’t it?
I’m with Griffon, the main problem is the low player base, not the MM.
I’d like to point out, that with purely fixed tiers, this (R9 vs R9, regardless of squads or DSR) would have happened anyway. And for that reason I personally am not fully supporting old kind of fixed tier system.
But current system definitely is not doing it’s job anyways, so it does start to feel (after playing with this system extensively), that even the old kind of fixed tier system at least gives less frustration and more challenge in total, as it seems and feels to be more fair.
You answered your own question, and this is the point I was making in my post: The current system is NOT working. Sometiems we fight underpowered teams on same tiers, other times we get something like T5. They mixed everything up and forced vets to play T3 in teams (hell, even ESB is squadding up in T3 now), because if we squad in higher tiers, we get 10 minutes waiting times for a stupid 4v4, where game should be more team oriented but we get these small games? This is our reward for progressing to end tier? I guess the only reward is to get a T5 ship and solo stomp other people in their T3 ships. What a brilliant idea. I xxxx hate it.
Error once said that T4 is where the clan wars happen. hahaha yeah right. Your clans are in low tiers now buddy, because devs fucked it up. They forced and mixed everything, and nothing good came out of it. Should you have at least kept the tiers, we would have a stable metagame in T4 and T5, but with this squad fuckup and mixing, it is a pile of worthless xxxx now.
You answered your own question, and this is the point I was making in my post: The current system is NOT working. Sometiems we fight underpowered teams on same tiers, other times we get something like T5. They mixed everything up and forced vets to play T3 in teams (hell, even ESB is squadding up in T3 now), because if we squad in higher tiers, we get 10 minutes waiting times for a stupid 4v4, where game should be more team oriented but we get these small games? This is our reward for progressing to end tier? I guess the only reward is to get a T5 ship and solo stomp other people in their T3 ships. What a brilliant idea. I xxxx hate it.
Error once said that T4 is where the clan wars happen. hahaha yeah right. Your clans are in low tiers now buddy, because devs fucked it up. They forced and mixed everything, and nothing good came out of it. Should you have at least kept the tiers, we would have a stable metagame in T4 and T5, but with this squad fuckup and mixing, it is a pile of worthless xxxx now.
I’m playing with 3 other guys and we never faced two tiers above, max 5 rank difference (rank 4 vs rank 9). And I have played in tier 3 games and I have NEVER seen a tier 5 ship.
Concerning the tier 5 games, since there are so few people playing with tier 5 ships, what did you expect? in tier 2 and tier 3 the queue time is less than 1 min.
Why do T4 players went down to T3 ? If every T4 player was actually playing T4 wouldn’t that solve the problem of waiting times ?
“In fact, since the MM keep matching us against better ships and foes, we are working better as a team as before, because YOU NEED to work as a team to kill other guys in their better tier ships. So in fact, this MM is promoting skill, and that is what the pros here want isn’t it?”
While I do agree on most, not every squad wants to be coordonated. Some just squad to enjoy being together, and those don’t coordonate attacks. That’s why squad should fight squad+pug, but not put higher tier. but a high skill full synergy purple guy “should” be put one tier higher MAX.
Because if you squad in T4 with T4 ships, you fight full on T5 ESB 4 against 4. Come and try. They are just waiting for you. That’s how it is my friend.
Any why? Because if you squad in T4 ships, the MM puts you so absurdly high, your surpass all other queues and you end up in T5 godly queue, which is same xxxx if you flew T5 squad anyway.
There is no more T4 for corp players. You can only solo it now, or go to T3 and play against other T4 and T5 ships with your T3 group.
Or solo T4, T5. This also completes the circle of making higher tiers even more empty now. Even ESB had to go to T3, I see them there every day flying the T3 ships, because people just don’t bother getting higher anymore as much as they did.
And if you squad in T5?
Check it out for yourself.
Welcome to T6.
And those players that squaded with me that day was the last day I saw them playing the game. And this was on the first day of this MM patch xxxx. GG.
No, with a T4 squad you enter R15 games. With a T5 squad as you can see in the picture, it looks like a R18 game.
But because there are no R18 games going around, the R18 squad gets matched with your T4s after 10 minutes, because there are no other games and they “overlap” the MM boundries, and can be theoreticaly played together, same as T3 vs T4 easily is.
Speaking theoretically, or from personal experience?
I was first slightly positive about the mixed tiers (coming from World Of Tanks and other games where this system is used), but now, after some personal experience, I must admit it does not work well in this game: This game sees tiers differently than those other games.
I’ll use T2 vs T3 as example:
R7-R9 ships are T3, but modules don’t really scale according to rank: R7 can already have T3 maxed out purple modules, that do insanely bad damage or debuffs to T2 ships compared. Imagine T3 proximity mine as T2 interceptor (all of them cannot even have EB). Imagine taking T3 LRF shot (laser or missile) into your face as T2. Get your shield drained by T3 module as T2… Anything with big alpha damage / big alpha debuff effect is way too fatal for it to be “challenging”. It is more “frustrating”.
We have mixed ranks (inside tier), and that actually works OK. But mixed tiers: there are too much stuff that scales too badly for that. It is a problem that needs a solution. One solution would be to make alpha damage to scale down if targeting lower tier or give lower tier ships some extra free in-game buffs when they enter game with higher tier ships (buff that gives more resistances for that game, explosion damage reduction, hull/shield buff, and so on). Or make MM use fixed tiers.
Why do T4 players went down to T3 ? If every T4 player was actually playing T4 wouldn’t that solve the problem of waiting times ?
“In fact, since the MM keep matching us against better ships and foes, we are working better as a team as before, because YOU NEED to work as a team to kill other guys in their better tier ships. So in fact, this MM is promoting skill, and that is what the pros here want isn’t it?”
While I do agree on most, not every squad wants to be coordonated. Some just squad to enjoy being together, and those don’t coordonate attacks. That’s why squad should fight squad+pug, but not put higher tier. but a high skill full synergy purple guy “should” be put one tier higher MAX.
I agree with that. I always said that punishing squads with bigger MM is not fair, and that should be balanced just placing other squads of the same tier in the opposite team, like in most other MMO shooter games out there.
But it annoys me a lot that many people in this forum always have the mouth full with “skill that” or “skill there” but they complain if they need to use more skill to beat a tier higher ship.
Looks like they only want skill to face worse players, but want balance when they face skilled ones.
So far, MM seems mostly fine, and will be totally fine when there will be a bigger player base.
