Jagy Monster

[6939937]

Ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnINBLXM6M>

“Once upon a time there was a little AdamWest who lived in Star Conflict and all the mercenary ever wanted to do was to play interceptors. And even though he didn’t have the best ping and didn’t live in Russia, this little AdamWest dreamed that one day he can be good at interceptors. 
  
And one day came along a magic power called Practice and just like that POOF- the little mercenary was good. And even though he couldn’t tank like engi’s , or support like engi’s, or heal like Engi’s , or be a decent human being like Engi players, the little Mercenary was liked and looked at for his interceptor skills.”  Soon he even had the money, mono’s and synergy to get a Peregrine who he loved very much.
I’m sorry. (Crying)
Hold up.
Hold up, I’m sorry.

Everything was good for AdamWest, but then this mean little ship called the Jagy monster showed up.
It was so jelly of the AdamWest that it made it impossible for the Interceptors to play. And then the jagy monster came and tried to take the Interceptors away from the little AdamWest.

So the AdamWest prayed to Cinnomonfake And CinnomonFake said, "Don’t worry, little AdamWest.
 “I will go find this Jagy monster” "and I will nerf this build and melt its icy heart.
" And the AdamWest said, “Thank you”, and AdamWest and StarConflict lived happily ever after because I love interceptors so much.
I’m sorry. (Crying)
Hold up.
Hold up.
Hold up.
I’m sorry.
 

---

So what is the Jagy monster ?  The new Jag build out there is the best I have ever seen against interceptors.  Infact, Its so good I realized that myself and even the best interceptor pilots were a detriment to our team.  I was playing team battle and watched one of the best interceptor pilots in the game get dummyed by someone with a win loss ration of .91. I will explain the tactics and explain the ship of the jagy monster.

It’s the 4 main features that make the Jagy monster way to effective.  The first is the 6 second cloak build.  As it sounds every six seconds the jag can cloak.  The second feature is cruise engines making the ship go close to 650ms.  This in itself makes it very powerful but then add the auto aim Thi’Lith’ Beam.  And you have a kiting (look the term up if you don t know) monster.  Add to this the two slowing modules for this ship and add tactics and you have the Jagy Monster.

Here is the problem to counter this in an interceptor you need to close the range and stay on top of the opponent out maneuvering them.  This is not possible as the ship goes 650ms, cloaks every six seconds all the while never missing their shots due to auto aim, along with tackling you with ease.

So scenerio’s:

1. Recon-  You have a Spec falcon, You warp on the jagy monster perfectly 500m.  And drop a micro and spy drone on him. The Jagy monster pulls range on you while using free aim with the auto aim weapon to: 

a) Destroy your micro locator (He can’t miss auto aim for the win)  Destorys it in 3-4 vollys

b) damaging you at the same time.

Lets say in 2-4 seconds you chew through his shield well then the r14 implant kicks in and he cloaks.  At this time he can pull range uncloak with a 20% dmg bonous and tackle you.  YOu cannot avoid his damage (auto aim) and you use your shield repair to escape.  He fires his missile and tackles you with the second speed reduction.  You cannot catch him to apply damage, you cannot run, you cannot avoid his shots and you die.

2. Cov Ops - YOu get lucky and catch the jag de cloak within 500ms away from you.  You apply all your damage and use your web.  The jag easily pulls range going 650ms using free aim to hit you with every single shot they tackle you with the first slow.  You counter with shield repair.  You get tackled a second time you counter with hull repair all the while the jag is pulling distance  your weapons are not as accurate do to the distance.  About this time 6 seconds has passed and his sheilds are down.  He is free to cloak and pull range.  Then re-apply tackle and auto aim you die.

3. ECM - You get lucky and the jag uncloaks 1200m from you.  You stun.  His sheild goes down now your  stun is over.  You then energy syphon and get closer getting him to and get him into emergency  barrier.  . …  oh but wait 6 seconds has passed and hes cloaked.  You now he is 4K away going 650ms and tackled you.  You use shield repair to counter and your retackled.  You do amazing moves to avoid the damage but wait there is auto aim and you die.

The best analogy I could think of: Imagine if the Predator had auto aim, disappears every 6 seconds runs faster than a car and  changes the ground your standing on to mud slowing you down by 50-60%.  Oh and has missiles and when they uncloak their auto aim is 20% stronger.  Schwarzenegger would have died in the first scene. This build with rails is nasty but workable as its still human targeting.  With auto aim it honestly makes interceptors on your team a constant detriment and the more of these killers out there the less people will play them. 

I think the main suggestion I would like to see is anywhere in the game, remove auto aim.  Its not a fun feature for those going up against it regardless of the low damage output.  Reduce the speed of Cruise engines that is all nerw flys with and anyone can atest its not fun seeing a fighter constantly out run an interceptor.   Lastly think about more than 6 seconds before cloak, if you think the majority of players can kill a skilled pilot in a jag in less than 6 seconds your wrong.

Thanks for reading hopefully at least it will be entertaining.

AdamWest

[30889229]

YOu are describing 1 on 1 situations, which does not make much sense. 1 on 1 many ships are far superior to others. For example, a destroyer will kill a classic tackler 10 times over.

The ship build you describe is very effective, i played it which the sing. But it is also hard to fly, since u need situational awareness, so not to fly right into enemy or asteroid. And u must time precisely ur slows. Therefore it will never be a widely popular ship.

If you want to fly Interceptor against it, i reccomend an ECM, which is very strong atm. BUT, and that but is important, you will have to work together with other ships to bring it down. Tackler is very squishy, if for example a tackler and an ECM work on it together it dies in two seconds.

 

[6939937]

A Destroyer will kill a classic anything in a 1v1.

Star Conflict in my opinion has always been about counters.  If a player brings a command bring a ecm.  If a player brings a Lrf bring a recon.  If a player brings a engi bring a cov ops.  The problem in my mind is interceptors have a very hard time to counter to this I really think its too effective.  Any time you see this ship and you team has 3 interceptors they all now become very useless on your team.

[18498904]

Cruise Engine indeed needs to be nerfed. Sure it makes most fighters just fly in straight lines, but it is just too good on ships like Sword and Jaquar.

Interceptors should be the fastest things on the battlefield, but currently that is not the case. I’d go as far as making base movement speed of all interceptors a little faster, but reduce their turn rate slightly. And then put a hard cap at turn rate 180.

[6939937]

Cruise engine needs nerf reducing rotation on interceptors won’t keep anyone happy. 

For Cruise engines the second you stop hitting afterburner you can turn quite well and still go >400ms.  Cruise engines work amazingly on lightbringer, spark just play against NERW a couple times.  All they need is a reduction on speed. . . there is no need for a Spark to fly around at 700ms or 625ms in a normal build.  Its just crazy.

[30889229]

13 minutes ago, AdamWest said:

A Destroyer will kill a classic anything in a 1v1.

Star Conflict in my opinion has always been about counters.  If a player brings a command bring a ecm.  If a player brings a Lrf bring a recon.  If a player brings a engi bring a cov ops.  The problem in my mind is interceptors have a very hard time to counter to this I really think its too effective.  Any time you see this ship and you team has 3 interceptors they all now become very useless on your team.

So, well, now obviously the Jaguar is the counter to Interceptors. It may sound a bit heretical, but did u ever think about, well bring a non-Interceptor to counter the Jagymonster? For example a guard? The Jaguar can fly around the guard with its autoaim weapon for centuries and will acomplish nothing.

[18498904]

12 minutes ago, AdamWest said:

Reducing rotation on interceptors won’t keep anyone happy.

So, you don’t think there is anything wrong with these nigh unhittable 650+ m/s 230+ deg/s things?

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7 minutes ago, theNoob said:

So, well, now obviously the Jaguar is the counter to Interceptors. It may sound a bit heretical, but did u ever think about, well bring a non-Interceptor to counter the Jagymonster? For example a guard? The Jaguar can fly around the guard with its autoaim weapon for centuries and will acomplish nothing.

That is the exact reason I wrote the jaggy monster in suggestions.  I do have to take a counter ship (tackler with rails) to counter this ship.  However, I have the impression that I should be able to fly interceptors and have a method to counter this ship.If I take a interceptor and 1 or 2 of these ships are on the feild I become a detriment to my team regardless of time I have spent training as an interceptor pilot.

[3522870]

For the Tli’Lith Launcher, I give you a plus.

For the cruise, a nay. Cruise is perfectly counterable, and with aim weapons, you feel that a lot, which makes an awesome mobile opportunistic gameplay. I flew the Jag for months with cruise builds, mostly with gauss cannons, and I found the gameplay very rewarding, but also hard, and sometimes I knew, my team fell apart because I wasn’t in something else. I then switched back to non cruise builds, and enjoy them now, especially if you are cruise, and still only go 650, which in my opinion is not an optimal cruise build, at all, it’s awesome to hunt the cruise ships. As you were, I was an interceptor exclusive, with some fed engi play at start, but later changed slowly to tacklers and commands, so I do feel like I have similar attitudes 

I tried lots of Jag builds built for ceptor hunt, and I am not denying it is a strong weapon with many many builds. Also, cruise wolf-m and cruise parallax was a common practice back when we played more free for alls as a group, so hunting cruise ships might seem easier to me, because it gets easier with repeated experience, in, and out of cruise ships. It’s like flying a jet to hunt choppers. Sometimes a good cruise tackler just went along as 4th ship, if there was a cruise ship in the enemy team. One dedicated tackler cannot just hunt ceptors, he can also hunt tacklers, if they rely on cruise…

But with the Tli’Lith, you mention another topic, which I find makes the debate: I think, that weapon is a bit too effective, and together with cruise, it enables a really easy and annoying tactic, which is just as annoying with the flux phaser, or in combination, creating really boring long range engagements, with lots of guards in some games, because a couple of tli lith can basicly farm any amount of ceptors.

I dislike that weapon and dont own it tho. Which is why I defend the cruise, but not that weapon.

 

edit: and as a tackler fan I am disappointed in jerris tackling impact on the game in t5. it’s like jaguar, or nothing.

 

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40 minutes ago, Vohvelielain said:

So, you don’t think there is anything wrong with these nigh unhittable 650+ m/s 230+ deg/s things?

With auto movement / turn keys I would say yes there is something wrong.  But with 230 rotation the player is only hurting them selfs as they will be very wobbly on anything other than <90 ping servers.  Being in the US and getting 1 in 13 games to be a ping lower than 90 I really couldnt fly that anyway.  Not to mention to get a interceptor to go 650ms with a 230 rotation means the lightest tank in the game add the nerf to adaptive and they are squishy as heck.  They can t cloak every 6 seconds,  One good gauss shot and your dead.  One round of pulsar . . . your dead.  3 flux your dead.  The boring long range auto aim stuff that can escape most scenarios in 6 seconds or run at 650ms to me is the real problem.

[3522870]

Also it is new to me, you get the 20% damage also with the 6 second cloak, I thought thats the only one without it? Or maybe I just remember the wrong tooltip info?

edit: actually at the tooltips, only the standard module shows this buff, i wonder whether the alternative modules have it or not

also to be honest, i started the last patch by going into mass-jag games and roasting them, because that nonstop “You can’t hide” award popup made me addicted, I think the adaptive nerf has killed a lot of builds that are still used but people dont get it yet 

[6939937]

2 minutes ago, g4borg said:

Also it is new to me, you get the 20% damage also with the 6 second cloak, I thought thats the only one without it? Or maybe I just remember the wrong tooltip info?

I might be wrong.  I will have to look again.  If not I doubt it makes a difference in the grand scheme of this suggestion.  The jagy monster is still trying to take my interceptors away from me ”)

 

I m sorry Ive been jelly before too.

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6 minutes ago, AdamWest said:

I m sorry Ive been jelly before too.

you mean because i dont own it? I would not use it anyway, i dont use them autoaimers but i would of course try it,  the lol build gunships are also way more effective. who needs tackling if you can just pair up and make your own kind of detonation game… so not jelly at all 

i find pleasure if i can finally pop that sucker, it’s not the amount of kills, it’s how it hurts what defines revenge.

[3121479]

I still don’t see the issue

 

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2 minutes ago, xKostyan said:

I still don’t see the issue

 

YOu made me laugh so hard when i read this.  All I could think of.

 

[3121479]

So i don’t get it

Through the thread it looks like you are complaining about cruise engine in general but in the topic title it is about particular Jags build

so which is it? Or you just complaining in general?

[8292596]

Well, tacklers are supposed to be the counter of interceptors. Auto-aim or not,  you shouldn’t go against a tackler as an interceptor. 

Well, to begin with its supposed to be Inty > Frigate > Fighter > Inty

But on most situations, inties win over fighters. They even have counter against their counter, which is absurd. 

 

Anyway , ever heard of white noise jammer? It won’t tackle you anymore. Recons can also cloak to flee, or all inties have the r13 implant.

 

Anyway balance and modules repartition in SC is kind of fucked. For example, why the hell LRF have both cloack and IR pulsar? They are totally the opposite, IR pulsar fit much better in a guard. 

Why does Recons are tacklers hunter when tacklers are supposed to be interceptors hunter? This is illogical. 

Why does the only real counter to destroyers are destroyers themselves? You don’t face flames with fire.

And combat reboot should be available for everyone. But well, this is out of the topic. 

[3121479]

Supernova gunships reck fighters and frigates a new one

[13083642]

I rather using beams instead of the “auto-aim” gun…notice im leading quite a bit to hit the shot?

A few clarifications:

-The quick cloack does not grants dmg boost after de-cloacking.
-Its 8 secs cooldown as min to re-cloack if cloack aint interrupted. Spy drones should be a good tactic since they have quick cooldown (use the recharge implant).
-Using Whitenoise or IR pulsar will make the gun completely harmless. Any cloack will make you invincible against it also.
-Dmg is quite low and thermal is often resisted by 50% or more; if jag decides to go mobile, it will probably lack caps/CPUs for dmg…it would be interesting to see whats the TTK, i suspect the interceptor will win if both stand still and hit all shots. Anyways, why does ceptors must be the answer for every situation? you still have 6 roles to adapt…the weapon is a joke against bigger ships.
-Base range of thilith is like 2700m, almost like rails…2 horizons grant close to 4km range, i wouldnt say its long range. Using curved reflector will surely boost substantially the dmg, but range would definately suck there.
-Try using obstacles in your favour to close the distance between you and the tackler. Or equip phase supressor/sk rah to completely screw the jag range advantage.

Perhaps cruise speed bonus could be reduced a bit.

[3522870]

no weapon on the tackler does big amounts of damage for free, papitas, to be honest. if you see those guns in action on a double mjolnir party, however, and the additional damage you seem to get on a ceptor, it should be clear, that weapon is just a tidbit too effective, even if you can deal with it. I would always try out the weapon of choice with the damage dealer, to get a feeling; the same ignorance was responsible for not nerfing the pulse laser for ages, because people said “the damage is okay! it has no range! its just thermal!”, but after it (and curve) was nerfed people actually realized, there were other guns aswell for ceptors, and in T5 on a covop it was enough to roflstomp the biggest tank in 2 sec with curved, things thankfully changed.

not all maps have smaller obstacles, in fact, level design has shifted in that regard. But I do use cover a lot, and the sudden damage hits from a random direction do not leave you a lot of reaction time.

as said, i think cruise is just the topping, imho the current version was sufficiently nerfed. and 2.7km might not be a range for a gunship weapon by itself, but it is enough to be a 8km no flight zone with an average build.

about IR and whitenoise, i still feel the times should be swapped: wn should do the longer blackout on a single target, IR should get the lower time of the WN, as it is passive.

in general, auto-aim weapons should never reach more than 80% damage of a similar non-auto-aim weapon imho. i find atm. all gunship auto-aim weapons are too strong, but luckily, people dont overuse it. it might become different if other roles or classes change.

Not saying, it’s OP or majorly flawed. If it were OP, it would be obvious by now, even tho, atm. less squad games in high tiers means also such tactics arent immediately visible; finally, i dont think this is viable for leagues anyway, it’s a bit of a niche problem. My personal solution is to switch to command, and to be honest atm. the covert ops has almost no real usage in t5 meta, so I even stopped equipping it most of the time.