Give us Feedback: New Camera

But they are listening to player feedback. For some the changes may be perceived as negative, but for others the game is still enjoyable. Because opinions are so split, tough decisions and compromise have to be made. Much time must be put into any deliberations.

 

The camera changes to frigates to give them back some situational awareness is appreciated. The camera for interceptors and fighters is more than usable. I like the settings they have right now in 0.8.1.

 

 

While that is your opinion and you are entitled to it it is difficult at this point to deny that the vast majority of players dislike the camera on interceptors and fighters. I am surprised that you claim opinions are split on this matter, when 75% of the poll voters dislike the changes and another 7% feel uncomfortable.

Furthermore, I believe I provided apt reasoning for why I feel the negatives greatly outweigh the positives on these camera changes, I would appreciate it if you made the effort to go into these arguments if you wish to convince me of the opposite.

 

I do not doubt that Gaijin is listening but that is for naught if they do not act accordingly. there is a difference between listening and listening to your audience.

Most of these were votes before the camera fix as well, so the camera has been improved since then, people dont tend to come back and change their vote though.

I deny nothing, though I wish to say that these polls are themselves only representing a small portion of the whole community. Usually when individuals rush to forum boards it is to voice a concern they have. Less often do you see people who are content explain their perspective, since they have no real reason to, unless they, like myself, wish to encourage discussion or give an alternative view.

 

Unfortunately, I do not play frigates very often and so cannot, in good conscience, make claims about the effects of the new camera on these ships. I will instead talk about my experience with fighters and interceptors.

 

To start, I actually didn’t notice a huge change with the camera on these two classes. I recognize this may be due to the fact that I’ve always had my camera zoomed in closer than maximum. As such, this is how I would respond to your points (please keep in mind all comments from here are about fighters and interceptors only):

 

• Regarding squad interaction and team awareness, there is an interesting dynamic that comes from not being able to see everything. For someone who takes point in formation, I rely on my wingmen to watch where I cannot watch. The inherent vulnerabilities of my limited sight lead me to depend on my teammates to guard me. I’m quite fond of this because it encourages squad play. I maintain that the camera view right now is more than adequate for individual pilots.

 

• I argue that depth of engagement is increased, not decreased, due to the fact that targets are harder to follow. It is a tactic to fly into the blind spot of your opponent. The red arrow added to the HUD is a good indicator so pilots aren’t completely lost in a dogfight, but is just enough information to not limit the tactical option of escaping enemy sights.

 

• Ship handling is the same as it was before the camera changes. Could you please elaborate on how the camera affects this?

 

• And with immersion, I return to my point of camera view producing intended vulnerabilities. I am always impressed by those who enter a dogfight with me while I am in an interceptor and manage to evade my attempts at tracking them. A side note, there is an option in the game to unlock your camera so that you may swing your cursor behind your ship.

 

To conclude, I disagree with your points about the camera not because I believe them to be wrong, but because I view them in a different light.

 

Regards,

 

ZEIK

I bet some people like me never even knew you could turn you ship into a a sowing needle on the screen. I have always had my camera set since i started playing and never changed it. That is just like expert mode control, I used that all the way till I got to T3 and realized that its only good for flying and not dog fighting as much. Seeing as how you can’t shoot sideways unless your strafing.

 ZEIK has some really good points. The reason the dev’s put the camera in close was to give the sense of flying a BIG space ship not a steam roller. The way you all make it sound is the pilot should be tethered behind the ship. If that’s the case give the option to slam into the “Tethered Frigate Pilot!”     

But they are listening to player feedback. For some the changes may be perceived as negative, but for others the game is still enjoyable. Because opinions are so split, tough decisions and compromise have to be made. Much time must be put into any deliberations.

 

The camera changes to frigates to give them back some situational awareness is appreciated. The camera for interceptors and fighters is more than usable. I like the settings they have right now in 0.8.1.

So for you, most/nearly all = some. That’s a stupid approximation and you know it.

Considering theres… 10-15 people here complaining, yet at least 600 people or so in game at any given time of the day, on average of 4 hours of playtime… just a reasonable deduction… 6 shifts of 600 people… 3600 people… 10-15 is very few, as if those 3600 people even if some of them arent here and complain, if they had a real issue with how things were, they would come here to post. 

 

Maybe you should take the hours you spend on the forums… playing to get some more matches under your belt, and get used to the changes rather than playing a few times and then complaining about them.

 

Overcome your obstacles. If you see a wall climb over it. Talking to it for hours on end, wont make you magically appear on the other side. 

 

Adapt and overcome. Turn with the world, as it wont turn for you.

 

Numerous other things can be said here…

Considering theres… 10-15 people here complaining, yet at least 600 people or so in game at any given time of the day, on average of 4 hours of playtime… just a reasonable deduction… 6 shifts of 600 people… 3600 people… 10-15 is very few, as if those 3600 people even if some of them arent here and complain, if they had a real issue with how things were, they would come here to post. 

 

Maybe you should take the hours you spend on the forums… playing to get some more matches under your belt, and get used to the changes rather than playing a few times and then complaining about them.

 

Overcome your obstacles. If you see a wall climb over it. Talking to it for hours on end, wont make you magically appear on the other side. 

 

Adapt and overcome. Turn with the world, as it wont turn for you.

 

Numerous other things can be said here…

 

 

So now we discount poll results because forums represent the minority ? Might aswell close down the forums then and forego all discussion and criticism.

I find it a fallacy to assume that most players are happy with the changes since they do not go through the effort to find the forum, make and account and spent time writing feedback.

 

Also, you are now basically asking people to shut up and deal with it. Please do not imply that I, or other people who complain, have not adjusted to the changes or played significantly amounts since. The fact that I can fly with the changes and still think it is a badly designed camera, are not connected, I still top the charts when I need to but that is completely irrelevant.

 

The Devs are asking us for our opinions here, Ingame camera should not be an “obstacle to overcome” that is called poor interface design.

I am of the opinion, as stated, that these changes have turned the game for the worse in quality, that is not the same as “whining” how I am unable to adapt and completely separate.

Youve not read the other posts here then. This was about the first camera change, not the updated one that is drastically better. The point being, these votes do not represent a vote AFTER the update, this is outdated as the people who initially complained about the camera voted, and havent come back to change their vote since the update.

I deny nothing, though I wish to say that these polls are themselves only representing a small portion of the whole community. Usually when individuals rush to forum boards it is to voice a concern they have. Less often do you see people who are content explain their perspective, since they have no real reason to, unless they, like myself, wish to encourage discussion or give an alternative view.

 

Unfortunately, I do not play frigates very often and so cannot, in good conscience, make claims about the effects of the new camera on these ships. I will instead talk about my experience with fighters and interceptors.

 

To start, I actually didn’t notice a huge change with the camera on these two classes. I recognize this may be due to the fact that I’ve always had my camera zoomed in closer than maximum. As such, this is how I would respond to your points (please keep in mind all comments from here are about fighters and interceptors only):

 

• Regarding squad interaction and team awareness, there is an interesting dynamic that comes from not being able to see everything. For someone who takes point in formation, I rely on my wingmen to watch where I cannot watch. The inherent vulnerabilities of my limited sight lead me to depend on my teammates to guard me. I’m quite fond of this because it encourages squad play. I maintain that the camera view right now is more than adequate for individual pilots.

 

• I argue that depth of engagement is increased, not decreased, due to the fact that targets are harder to follow. It is a tactic to fly into the blind spot of your opponent. The red arrow added to the HUD is a good indicator so pilots aren’t completely lost in a dogfight, but is just enough information to not limit the tactical option of escaping enemy sights.

 

• Ship handling is the same as it was before the camera changes. Could you please elaborate on how the camera affects this?

 

• And with immersion, I return to my point of camera view producing intended vulnerabilities. I am always impressed by those who enter a dogfight with me while I am in an interceptor and manage to evade my attempts at tracking them. A side note, there is an option in the game to unlock your camera so that you may swing your cursor behind your ship.

 

To conclude, I disagree with your points about the camera not because I believe them to be wrong, but because I view them in a different light.

 

Regards,

 

ZEIK

 

 

At this point it will prove difficult to convince one another of the different viewpoints but i will attempt to point out where I personally and as objectively as possible, see fault in your reasoning :

 

 

I deny nothing, though I wish to say that these polls are themselves only representing a small portion of the whole community. Usually when individuals rush to forum boards it is to voice a concern they have. Less often do you see people who are content explain their perspective, since they have no real reason to, unless they, like myself, wish to encourage discussion or give an alternative view.

 

Maybe, who truly knows ? However, if you transition into a mindset that feedback is irrelevant because it might not represent all the players, you would need to forego all polls and forums discussions for that matter. I believe that is not the kind of attitude a developer should aim for these days.

The fact is, the forum feedback is the best you are going to ever get in forms of customer feedback, I have not seen an in- game poll on camera changes.

 

 

 

• Regarding squad interaction and team awareness, there is an interesting dynamic that comes from not being able to see everything. For someone who takes point in formation, I rely on my wingmen to watch where I cannot watch. The inherent vulnerabilities of my limited sight lead me to depend on my teammates to guard me. I’m quite fond of this because it encourages squad play. I maintain that the camera view right now is more than adequate for individual pilots.

 

Subsequently group manoeuvres and keeping an eye on your support frigates or wingmen, have become nigh impossible, I take it you usually fly with voice coms and I believe they are now an actual requirement in order to fly in a squad, that is not good design. How are other pilots going to watch over you when they can not see your ship ? It seems illogical to state that the narrow view is fine because others will expand it for you, when they suffer identical issues.

The core issue at hand is that teamplay is hard to find in online games, especially such arcade titles. By it’s nature, the narrow camera removes natural awareness of one’s team and thereby awareness of their existence, locations, combat situations, roles etc.

It is harder to coordinate with this change not easier and most players will feel discouraged to jump through additional hoops in order to cooperate.

Engineers required guarding before these changes as it was, for the rest of ship classes these changes little in this respect, as nobody guards fighters or interceptors anyway, it is nonsensical. Therefore the hampered view for these two classes is not enhancing at all.

Furthermore would i like to remind you kindly that good Teamplay currently already trumps unorganized groups and or poor teamplay. There was no need to create further incentive for players to squad up, all this did was to make such teamplay twice as difficult to execute and enjoy.

 

 

 

• I argue that depth of engagement is increased, not decreased, due to the fact that targets are harder to follow. It is a tactic to fly into the blind spot of your opponent. The red arrow added to the HUD is a good indicator so pilots aren’t completely lost in a dogfight, but is just enough information to not limit the tactical option of escaping enemy sights.

 

I can see where you are coming from here, it has certainly become harder to dogfight. Difficulty does however, not automatically equal depth.

See, the issue I currently see is that a pilot tied in a dogfight, is now not actually reacting directly to his opponents manoeuvres but instead a red moving arrow on his HUD. Often dogfights will at some point consist of a pursuer and a fleeing target, escaping from the pursuer has become a little bit too easy at this point, often breaking up dogfights prematurely, turning the game into a " fight wounded targets and last hit quickly" .

 

 

 

 

• Ship handling is the same as it was before the camera changes. Could you please elaborate on how the camera affects this?

 

 

How can ship handling be the same when the camera is now locked at a 80% closer zoom in ?

Logically, avoiding obstacles and circling targets has been hampered.

 

 

 

• And with immersion, I return to my point of camera view producing intended vulnerabilities. I am always impressed by those who enter a dogfight with me while I am in an interceptor and manage to evade my attempts at tracking them. A side note, there is an option in the game to unlock your camera so that you may swing your cursor behind your ship.

 

 

And I am fine with that as a concept, blind spots are part of a flight simulator. However, blind spots existed before the camera change, I agree that the previous zoom- out- level was truly too high. However, the current levels are just too restricting and extreme in nature, a middle ground between the two would be appropriate in order to satisfy all goals and requirements.

Youve not read the other posts here then. This was about the first camera change, not the updated one that is drastically better. The point being, these votes do not represent a vote AFTER the update, this is outdated as the people who initially complained about the camera voted, and havent come back to change their vote since the update.

 

 

I am well aware of the frigate changes but am discussing the fighter and interceptor cameras, which are still in the identical state.

It would seem silly to me to imply that the majority of votes here were exclusively from Frigate pilots, who actually represent the vast minority of flown ship classes.

I like the current camera. The only change I would like is ability to increase FoV to grant more field of view. Camera closer to the ship gives better feel for the ship and reduces parallax-related melee range combat misses.

 

I prefer to fly fast ships in T3.

Maybe, who truly knows ? However, if you transition into a mindset that feedback is irrelevant because it might not represent all the players, you would need to forego all polls and forums discussions for that matter. I believe that is not the kind of attitude a developer should aim for these days.

The fact is, the forum feedback is the best you are going to ever get in forms of customer feedback, I have not seen an in- game poll on camera changes.

I would like to reiterate that I deny nothing. At no point did I say what should be done with regards to feedback found in forums. I merely pointed out a consideration to keep in mind when thinking about potential changes. A grain of salt, if you will.

 

Before I move on to address your further points, may I ask what camera you have been using in the past? I used the one very close to previous defaults which is similar to the default right now. It is because of this that I’m having a hard time understanding where your troubles are coming from if you are talking about fighters and/or interceptors.

 

Subsequently group manoeuvres and keeping an eye on your support frigates or wingmen, have become nigh impossible, I take it you usually fly with voice coms and I believe they are now an actual requirement in order to fly in a squad, that is not good design. How are other pilots going to watch over you when they can not see your ship ? It seems illogical to state that the narrow view is fine because others will expand it for you, when they suffer identical issues.

The core issue at hand is that teamplay is hard to find in online games, especially such arcade titles. By it’s nature, the narrow camera removes natural awareness of one’s team and thereby awareness of their existence, locations, combat situations, roles etc.

It is harder to coordinate with this change not easier and most players will feel discouraged to jump through additional hoops in order to cooperate.

Engineers required guarding before these changes as it was, for the rest of ship classes these changes little in this respect, as nobody guards fighters or interceptors anyway, it is nonsensical. Therefore the hampered view for these two classes is not enhancing at all.

Furthermore would i like to remind you kindly that good Teamplay currently already trumps unorganized groups and or poor teamplay. There was no need to create further incentive for players to squad up, all this did was to make such teamplay twice as difficult to execute and enjoy.

As someone who has been using this camera or something close to the camera view in 0.8.1 since I started this game, I can say that even without voice coms I can keep an eye on my squadmates. It is something that takes practice. Before SCon, I stayed clear of FPS and TPS because I had a hard time visualizing three-dimensional space. I would lose myself on the map upon taking a few steps, a few turns. I still lose myself in SCon some matches, but this is a fault of mine and not of the game. With the addition of the arrows on the HUD pointing to teammates and enemies (there was a time when those did not exist), in the event that I do get lost, I have the necessary information to reorient myself.

 

At its core, SCon is a team-based game. Evidence of this can be found in implemented features including but not limited to:

 

• The specialization of ship roles, e.g. Recon, ECM, Covert Ops interceptors

• Visual differentiation between squadmates and teammates

• Corporations

 

Since you mentioned how people do not guard fighters or interceptors, I will give you an example of when this is not true. In Detonation, the one running the EMP is usually a fast ship. Rarely will you see a frigate taking the bomb because they will become a sitting duck with the speed debuff the EMP imposes on whoever is carrying it. The resulting scenario is this: an interceptor rushes to take the neutral EMP upon first spawn, the whole team flies steadily behind him/her. That interceptor takes the bomb and makes a beeline towards an enemy beacon, half a dozen opponents have him/her locked and are right on his/her tail. The response? Defend the EMP. The interceptor’s teammates rally towards the objective, shooting down those trying to stop the EMP bearer. The interceptor cannot see those following him/her, but he/she does not need to. This is what a team is for.

 

There are further applications of this, all of which play on the positioning of individuals. Frigates, for their long range and slower speeds, will want to hang back in order to avoid running into better manoeuvring ships. If these pilots keep their sights on the opposing team, their own teammates will naturally fall within their field of view. Fighters and interceptors, those that weave between the front lines and their support team, effectively get sandwiched between two lines of observers. When this is not applicable is when an individual decides to stray from the wing, and this must be done with utmost caution. The game encourages teamplay and discourages the solo-hero mentality.

 

It may be hard to find coherent teamplay when queueing without a squad, but this is an issue individual pilots must consider. Ultimately, this game is more aligned with FPS and TPS than it is RTS. The particular camera view is a feature, not a flaw.

 

I can see where you are coming from here, it has certainly become harder to dogfight. Difficulty does however, not automatically equal depth.

See, the issue I currently see is that a pilot tied in a dogfight, is now not actually reacting directly to his opponents manoeuvres but instead a red moving arrow on his HUD. Often dogfights will at some point consist of a pursuer and a fleeing target, escaping from the pursuer has become a little bit too easy at this point, often breaking up dogfights prematurely, turning the game into a " fight wounded targets and last hit quickly" .

All I can add here, without being too redundant, is practice. If caught in a death spiral, slow down and wait for the other to fly into your sights. Plenty of things can be done to break stalemates. Perhaps try changing direction, reversing the spin, escaping the circle, taking advantage of vertical movement (default keybinds are alt and spacebar). A dogfighting game is more than just being able to hold your cursor over an opponent. Being able to fly and fly well is the critical other half.

 

Immersion comes from being one with my ship. That frustration of dogfighting with someone who expertly evades my sights is what encourages me to get better. If I cannot see my opponent, I am forced to think about methods in which to either gain the upper hand or take away the other pilot’s advantage. Soon, he or she will try the same with me. It is this back and forth that creates depth in dogfighting.

 

In summary, the camera changes to fighters and interceptors are very minimal compared to the frigates. The earlier complaints in this thread and similar threads were directed at frigates. The options now are more than usable and are quite reasonable. This is the compromise between cockpit view, which many have asked for though that would definitely reduce field of view, and the too-zoomed-out camera that allows for far too much situational awareness to be considered appropriate for this type of game.

 

If you would like to speak with me in-game, you can find me under the same name (ZEIK).

I have found that the main issues in the game are, it seems, reaching beyond the camera. Even with the fix Frigates still feel horrible to play with (to me at least). The Interceptors dominate the field - they are too fast to be effectively engaged at close quarters even in a Fighter, and as such there isn’t really any proper anti-Interceptor mechanics that I can see. You have to lock them down at extreme range, or with minefields, or gang up on them with 2-3 debuffers + area effect.

 

This is the issue that needs addressing now - not the camera, but the sheer power of the “weakest” ships in the game.

Really the inty problem boils down to the camera problem. before camera was screwed up I could engage an inty in my frig and especially so in my fighter. With the camera now I have the hardest time trying to find my target. Worse is I often loose my cross hairs/aim point because the frigate big xxxx is on my face now. When I can see the target clearly I can blow an interceptor away. the Devs need to fix this and stop ignoring the vast majority of the community. they need to learn that even if you sugar coat a xxxx … its still a xxxx … this camera is a xxxx

This is the issue that needs addressing now - not the camera, but the sheer power of the “weakest” ships in the game.

 

Play t3, and you will see interceptors are not the all powerfull, frigates are.

Really the inty problem boils down to the camera problem. before camera was screwed up I could engage an inty in my frig and especially so in my fighter. With the camera now I have the hardest time trying to find my target. Worse is I often loose my cross hairs/aim point because the frigate big xxxx is on my face now. When I can see the target clearly I can blow an interceptor away. the Devs need to fix this and stop ignoring the vast majority of the community. they need to learn that even if you sugar coat a xxxx … its still a xxxx … this camera is a xxxx

Frigates are not supposed to be close quarter combat fast-turning dogfight machines - that’s the job of interceptor and to a lesser degree fighter. That’s why skilled frigates play in balls. One frigate shoots light ships off other frigate’s blind spots, utilizing the fact that they have wide AoE suppression and healing always outpowering lighter attackers.

 

It seems like you’re playing some unbalanced low tier with no appropriate mods available and distinct lack of teamwork. I would conclude that there is indeed a “xxxx” here, but it isn’t the camera. If you could always shoot at an interceptor, no one would play one. We’ve been there. It isn’t fun for anyone but a handful of die hard frigate pilots.

… Well …

 

Make it so I can have my ship invisible…

Make it so I can fly from the cockpit…

Or make it so I can fly first person without cockpit…

 

Hud needs work to…

 

make it so I can change the color of the things on my hud independent of one anouther. so I can

 

make my energy bar say…yellow

 

make my hull bar…green

 

make my shield bar blue…

 

you get the idea.

 

Also better cross hairs, Need options on crosshair type and color.  To easy to lose your crosshairs in some situations. : /

 

OH! and radar placement is worthless, put it where the ship normally is so I can see it while I fly with my peripheral vision. Also put it on a black background not blue, and get rid of the stupid elevation lines, For more inspiration on what’s been proven to work (and is OS) look at FSO

KIndly ignore all of the advice of player above. We do not need my little pony with all colors of rainbow style UI, and we do need a functional radar like we have now.

 

The only UI change that feels needed is crosshair coloration, and that has already been confirmed by devs to be in works.

I have found that the main issues in the game are, it seems, reaching beyond the camera. Even with the fix Frigates still feel horrible to play with (to me at least). The Interceptors dominate the field - they are too fast to be effectively engaged at close quarters even in a Fighter, and as such there isn’t really any proper anti-Interceptor mechanics that I can see. You have to lock them down at extreme range, or with minefields, or gang up on them with 2-3 debuffers + area effect.

 

This is the issue that needs addressing now - not the camera, but the sheer power of the “weakest” ships in the game.

 

I strongly disagree with this.