I strongly disagree with this.
I strongly agree with it.
I strongly agree with it.
I’m starting to think that we need the “this player is ranked x and played y games” next to the forum avatar for all users. It seems to correlate quite strongly with “frigs are weak” vs “frigs are strong” opinion split.
I’m starting to think that we need the “this player is ranked x and played y games” next to the forum avatar for all users. It seems to correlate quite strongly with “frigs are weak” vs “frigs are strong” opinion split.
As hesitant as I am to say this, there is a small part of me that agrees. However! The issue then becomes at what point do we say, “Yes, you have played enough games and I can thus listen to your opinion”? I don’t want to undermine players who have less games played. It might spawn a culture of elitism which is not conducive to a community.
At the same time though, the differences between T2 and T3 are so drastic that I feel it is almost necessary for people to state which tier they are speaking about.
Returning to the topic, Luckyo has a fair point regarding the roles of frigates. They are not meant to be able to see everything and shoot everything. The camera changes for them came from a few reasons, one of which was a balancing factor.
As hesitant as I am to say this, there is a small part of me that agrees. However! The issue then becomes at what point do we say, “Yes, you have played enough games and I can thus listen to your opinion”? I don’t want to undermine players who have less games played. It might spawn a culture of elitism which is not conducive to a community.
At the same time though, the differences between T2 and T3 are so drastic that I feel it is almost necessary for people to state which tier they are speaking about.
Returning to the topic, Luckyo has a fair point regarding the roles of frigates. They are not meant to be able to see everything and shoot everything. The camera changes for them came from a few reasons, one of which was a balancing factor.
The point about a fear of elitism is very valid I think. It is already happening. If we don’t have enough matches or are not high enough tier we are already flamed and dismissed at this point. If you ignore or dismiss the newer players or players stuck at a lower tier you are essentially ignoring and shunning new customers. I would think that would be a very fast way to loose any prospect of having long term paying customers. And additionally you are squashing the new players desire to continue and become a so called veteran player. Any elitist attitude should be shut down and all discussion encouraged … you never know where the next great idea or observation may come from and make this game the greatest that has even been. When you censor or deny a discussion for any reason you loose the chance of finding that great idea.
I cant really comment on tier 2 and 3 difference since I’m only a low tier 2 player right now. But I can say it seems a bit wrong for there to be such a difference in the tiers I do see when the matchmaking system is the shambles it currently is … If tier 2and 3 are worse that’s just seems a shame to be allowed to continue.
And for Luckyo’s point I call BS. No interceptor should be able to park itself in a frigates blind spot and kill it with impunity. that is what is currently happening. The weakest ship should not be able to kill the strongest ship with such ease. On the other hand a Frigate SHOULD be able to blow an interceptor to dust at ANY tier … with ease. Oh sure, if an interceptor is flown with great skill and suicides itself into a frigate then sure it should be able to seriously hurt or even kill it. Or maybe if the interceptor has 1 or 2 nukes or other “big gun” it could seriously hurt or kill a frigate. But a lone interceptor with no help and only guns should never be able to kill a frigate. No way no how. If the goal is to be somewhat realistic while encouraging team play and encourage customers to spend money you really have to fix this. It is not even slightly realistic for a lone interceptor to park itself in a frigates blind spot and blast it to dust. And it certainly doesn’t encourage team play, not when you can take advantage of this flaw and smoke a frigate all lone wolf style. Sure you have forced frigate to bunch up to cover each other but that’s not good either because now your restricting the roles frigates can do … And I fully understand that at higher tiers there are modules and such that makes Frigates more resilient to being attacked in such a way but the argument is still the same. It should take a team of interceptors or fighters to take out a frigate at least 2 or 3 at the very least.
This logic implies that frigate is much stronger then interceptor. Yet they:
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Cost the same to buy.
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Cost the same to build.
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Cost the same for the team to deploy.
If they were of the difference in power suggested, there is no need for team to EVER field anything but frigates. And we’ve been there in 0.8.0. It’s anything but fun, and those few who do find it fun would likely find games like mech warrior online or world of tanks much more to their liking in terms of “slow units duking it out”.
Regardless, this particular venue of discussion is fruitless. Devs already informed us that frigates are not meant to be more powerful then interceptors but approximately on par. The difference in roles is the functionality of a role. A spec ops int or a gunship fighter is supposed to slaughter a solo engineer or solo long range frig. It’s something that their role implies, and why some classes need cover from others, such as guard frigates, to be functional.
one simple question: why do we not get the old camera back if almost 2/3 of players want it back?
the vote option clearly shows that you vote for reverting the change as a whole right? why didn’t this happen? why can’t we get a new camera as an option? no one would have ever complained if you could chose between new and old cam in the first place.
one simple question: why do we not get the old camera back if almost 2/3 of players want it back?
the vote option clearly shows that you vote for reverting the change as a whole right? why didn’t this happen? why can’t we get a new camera as an option? no one would have ever complained if you could chose between new and old cam in the first place.
Suggestions are always useful to hear and will be heard without needing to fall back to citing how many people support which cause. In cases like this, please be mindful that numbers gathered from polls cannot be taken as absolutes especially when only part of the community actually votes. For example, at the time I am posting this you are correct in saying the majority of votes are for the “Give us the old one back!” option, however the majority is 50 votes out of 79.
Also, Luckyo hits the nail on the head.
Youve not read the other posts here then. This was about the first camera change, not the updated one that is drastically better. The point being, these votes do not represent a vote AFTER the update, this is outdated as the people who initially complained about the camera voted, and havent come back to change their vote since the update.
I’d just like to point out that the most popular choice was “give us back the old camera”. This hasn’t happened. Therefore, regardless of the recent patches (which I will not deny there has been an improvement) the current camera does not meet the requested action. Which means the developers didn’t listen to the community represented here on the forums.
Also, this thread was created by Gentai and the Devs, not Sunder. Sunder’s post just got upvoted enough that it somehow moved. Or it may have been a result of the forum restructuring.
Basically, in a poll that the devs created, most of the players voted for the old camera option; and yet this has yet to happen, and will probably never happen. Any argument about the forums representing a minority of the ‘actual’ players makes no sense: why bother with a poll on the forums? Why bother with a forum at all?
In short: The developers asked; but they didn’t intend to listen. They’re just window dressing to keep a riot from breaking out among the remaining players.
I’d just like to point out that the most popular choice was “give us back the old camera”. This hasn’t happened. Therefore, regardless of the recent patches (which I will not deny there has been an improvement) the current camera does not meet the requested action. Which means the developers didn’t listen to the community represented here on the forums.
Also, this thread was created by Gentai and the Devs, not Sunder. Sunder’s post just got upvoted enough that it somehow moved. Or it may have been a result of the forum restructuring.
Basically, in a poll that the devs created, most of the players voted for the old camera option; and yet this has yet to happen, and will probably never happen. Any argument about the forums representing a minority of the ‘actual’ players makes no sense: why bother with a poll on the forums? Why bother with a forum at all?
In short: The developers asked; but they didn’t intend to listen. They’re just window dressing to keep a riot from breaking out among the remaining players.
Alternatively, they listened and chose a compromise, i.e. the recent patches.
Forums are here for discussion. I personally do not like polls as they simplify situations and allow for arguments centred around less than credible numbers. I am not disregarding any opinions here. I merely ask that people consider who contributes most to these debates and their motivations. Discontent moves more hands than contentment.
Feedback is valuable, but bringing up claims of “most people said X” is a fallacy.
So lets get this straight …
- It is Awesome!!! (3 votes [3.80%])
- It is good (8 votes [10.13%])
- So and so (5 votes [6.33%])
- It is bad (9 votes [11.39%])
-  Horrible! Give us the old one back! (50 votes [63.29%])
- Don’t know… (4 votes [5.06%])
So a majority of 63.29 percent say that they want the old camera back and you say that’s not a majority?
If you combine to 2 obviously negative selections of Horrible hate it and just Bad then you get a overwhelming majority of 74.68 percent. Is this not a majority either?
And we know that following polls are unpopular by the powers that be here. it is obvious that an open and honest discussion is not wanted and Soldiers point is not only valid but apparently spot on and accurate. you cannot say “We are listening” then ignore us and do the exact opposite or worse yet stifle the discussion at every opportunity.
The only fallacy occurring here is the continued belief that the devs can do no wrong and that the “discontented” are a whiny minority. the fact is that average numbers are down. When I started playing I saw and average of 1000+ online at any given time, now if I see over 600 its a good busy day. That means you have lost customers. Customers that complained, were ignored and left. Or worse yet potential customers that came in, never vocally complained, didn’t like the trends they were seeing and left. that is money thrown out a window by the dev team because they ignore stuff like this. this is a clear simple on point message provided and it has thus far been ignored. The VAST MAJORITY do NOT like the camera and want the old one back. It is a common theme I see in chat between all the bacon spam. You can validly argue things like the Engy healing is OP or the nuke spam is excessive etc etc as being a balancing issue that needs tweaking, but the camera is BROKEN and needs returned to its former state. Tweaking a broken system does not make it better, it makes it slightly less BAD!!! The goal should not be to make something less bad, return the camera to its previous useful arrangement and then make small tweaks and get community feedback via polls and discussion. That fixes all the problems, you make the community happy, you then make small changes and tweaks to the then unbroken camera and do so in a thoughtful inclusive fashion.
Agreed with you Zap. right on the spot. What is the point in the dev’s doing polls IN GAME if ZEIK says “Feedback is valuable, but bringing up claims of “most people said X” is a fallacy.”
so basically the polls in the game are also useless then? because people are not voicing their opinions but just voting… you guys make it confusing to tell if it’s even worth my time -.-
The reason Zeik is saying that, is this.
People who complain are more vocal than the people who have nothing to complain about. Meaning, if someone finds something wrong, they are more likely to post about it, than the person who is having no issues at all. The 50 or 60 people represented by that 50-72% however you decide to look at it represents a minute amount of the population of the game. If it was that big of an issue, don’t you think more than 50-60 out of the thousands that play this game would have come here to say something about it? This pole was also started before they did the additional update to the camera, so I highly doubt that most of these votes were reconsidered and changed after the fact, if said person or people were ok with the updated camera.
oh gotcha. thanks for clearing that up.
Most welcome MHC
I would like to add that this game isn’t and shouldn’t be run solely on majority votes. As simple as it would be, sometimes the majority simply don’t have the same ideal. For example, if we held a poll right now about costs, the majority may manage to vote “eliminate gold standards, make everything free”. Obviously this would not be honored, and would heavily alienate the minority who decided to put money into the game if it were allowed. As for the camera, it was changed for reasons not stated but plausably game balance or realism. Everyone who played the game beforehand would naturally dislike the change, because people don’t like change, and people especially don’t like changes that limit something that was once unlimited. If majority vote were followed, nothing would change for the better of the game itself. Of course, talking about the issue is another matter. Changes may have been too extreme, and they decide to zoom out the camera a bit more for you while still retaining the purpose of what they originally intended.
Erm, that came out too strong.
They are listening, and they are fixing things. They are not guiltless, however. Still, the voting is there for a reason, and things are considered in the workings.
I’d like the camera to be
- zoomable in a certain way, saving the zoomlevel you use on the ship.
- having free look (rotate the cam without targeting) by holding down a key, which returns to your target position again after that.
in fact, the free look the arma series have introduced (ALT allows you to look around, double tapping ALT stays in free look (where single tapping returns to crosshair position)) until now the most, when it comes to camera handling. Of course, alt is used in star conflict for flying down (which is not an ideal default key map however)
For sluggier ships like the frigs zoomlevels would be great to have a better overview, for smaller ships like interceptors, it would be nice to have a way of looking back without flying there.
g4borg i believe those are actually in the game. use the mouse wheel and you can zoom out or in. not by to much. And while you are flying hold the Ctrl key down. either that or it’s alt. but you can find it in the keybinds. and it zooms you really far out. hope this helps 
People who complain are more vocal than the people who have nothing to complain about. Meaning, if someone finds something wrong, they are more likely to post about it, than the person who is having no issues at all. The 50 or 60 people represented by that 50-72% however you decide to look at it represents a minute amount of the population of the game. If it was that big of an issue, don’t you think more than 50-60 out of the thousands that play this game would have come here to say something about it? This pole was also started before they did the additional update to the camera, so I highly doubt that most of these votes were reconsidered and changed after the fact, if said person or people were ok with the updated camera.
Also, this poll is two (or three) patches old. Those whom voted “horrible” might actually vote differently now, after the camera has been “fixed” a bit.
I personally still think the camera is a bit bad for some Fighters , but wouldn’t anymore vote “horrible”, which it was before the minor fix they did patch or two ago.
Just to make sure, the camera hasn’t returned to what it was in 0.8.0 or prior, right? I’m not going to bother trying out the game again unless that’s fixed. It was the killing blow for this game to me. It sealed the poor design choices made in the past four months.
So, Camera isn’t reverted, right? I’ll check back in a month or two again, if it’s not fixed by then, I’m not checking back. I got the feeling this game was past redemption when the 0.8.0 patch came out.
I’d like the camera to be
- zoomable in a certain way, saving the zoomlevel you use on the ship.
- having free look (rotate the cam without targeting) by holding down a key, which returns to your target position again after that.
in fact, the free look the arma series have introduced (ALT allows you to look around, double tapping ALT stays in free look (where single tapping returns to crosshair position)) until now the most, when it comes to camera handling. Of course, alt is used in star conflict for flying down (which is not an ideal default key map however)
Before the patch you could hold Ctrl to free look, I believe. I didn’t use it much, but it was nice if you just wanted to see the scenery.