Destroyers in Beacon Matches

61

So the game is about 1v2 or what?

when a destroyer is easier to spot then a frigate for you then you maybe shouldn’t play at 20km range or get some glasses. And since when does the size of a ship change the amount of people shooting at it after this logic a battle has to be 16+vs8 when one side has only Destroyer and the other none. And destroyers don’t have to go white open, they are also strong in closed rooms like Leviathan and the other little tube map coz you can#t evade stuff like Pyro Emitter so easy since you have walls all around you.

Failed jokes doesn’t help anyone. If you fail to read properly I can’t help. Spotting has nothing to do with Only seeing them.

Leviathan is a huge failmap. Already said about this after they were introduced.

62

@Lord_Xenon

Do you know what the word “balance” means in PvP? It means that every ship role has a specific function where it excels, and that every ship is viable. For example, let’s compare a guard to a destroyer: a good J guard ship has approximately 25k shield, and when fitted properly can have up to 80/80/80 points of resistance. It has very low dps. It is really slow (most of them can’t go over 210 with AB on). Their modules allow them to negate ab for a 15 seconds (not sure about this), destroy missiles, regenerate shield and hull at 1200/s (for 15 seconds, and with long cooldown) and use pulsar to deny an area to interceptors. Let’s compare this with a rank 11 Sybil (Because, you know, let’s compare J with J!) It can be fitted to reach 1000 shield regen/s constantly, have insanely high resistances, deny ab and beacon capture with Blackhole for 30s, have incredibly high dps at medium range with meson, destroy each inty that tries to knife you with the press of 1 button (Photon torpedo) and snipe around with it, use a turret that deals the same damage as a supernova singularity cannon but with more projectile speed and RoF… Do I have to continue? And don’t remember that it can warp 5km away, while it should be the SLOWEST class in the game.

And I could compare ths class with all the other ones, and still prove that destroyers are better.

And how you will go hunt your pray with such a setup? You barely have 160m/s speed and out of the warp, which you have ~once 57s? You deny the beacon and being a target but that’s all you can do.

63

And how you will go hunt your pray with such a setup? You barely have 160m/s speed and out of the warp, which you have ~once 57s? You deny the beacon and being a target but that’s all you can do.

Christ, you have no idea what the role of Guards are, do you? The Sybil in Frost’s case is doing the job better than the Guard.

 

You are missing his point. Yet again.

64

And how you will go hunt your pray with such a setup? You barely have 160m/s speed and out of the warp, which you have ~once 57s? You deny the beacon and being a target but that’s all you can do.

You don’t need to hunt prays! They’ll come to you! That’s the damn point! On beacon hunt: find a beacon, put a black hole, stand in front of it, deny the access of every enemy pilot to it. If an interceptor come to knife you (their main weapons will do absolutely nothing, you have enough regen and resistance to completely nullify their damage), just kill them with the photon emitter and meson, which is really accurate at medium range, with the right fit. When another beacon is about to turn on, just warp to it and repeat the process…

 

On combat recon: If you are the cap, just slaughter anything that tries to come near you. With the bonus damage you can tear apart everything… If you are not the cap, you just stay in the middle of the field guarding the area. If the enemy is using a frigate as their cap, just warp near him when the time is just about to run out, and unleash tempest and photon on it.

 

On team battle: stay in the middle of the field again, if you get in danger, just warp away. 

 

Do you see the problem now? Destroyers are the toughest ship in the game; they outgun gunships; they have almost the same mobility as recons in beacon hunt (the warp cooldown is lower than the active time of a beacon, so you can just warp to the next one every time); they guard areas better than guards; they have no problems against interceptors; they are effective at long range; with their static shields, they are more protected than a command under diffusion shield, or they can regen themselves with drones, making them able to survive without an engine. 

 

They outclass almost every other ship in the game. 

65

Christ, you have no idea what the role of Guards are, do you? The Sybil in Frost’s case is doing the job better than the Guard.

You are missing his point. Yet again.

In this case yes. But that’s only partly the job of a guard isn’t it?

Can you cast the blackhole in your team to avoid using AB? I doubt the team will be happy about that.

Can you reduce the damage from enemies?

66

In this case yes. But that’s only partly the job of a guard isn’t it?

Can you cast the blackhole in your team to avoid using AB? I doubt the team will be happy about that.

Can you reduce the damage from enemies?

Why reducing the dmg of the enemies or deactivating their afterburners when I can have moar tank and moar dmg?

67

Can you reduce the damage from enemies?

You don’t need that, you can just roflstomp everything, and your team doesn’t need it either, because if they keep you alive, almost no enemy can pass. 

68

You don’t need to hunt prays! They’ll come to you! That’s the damn point! On beacon hunt: find a beacon, put a black hole, stand in front of it, deny the access of every enemy pilot to it. If an interceptor come to knife you (their main weapons will do absolutely nothing, you have enough regen and resistance to completely nullify their damage), just kill them with the photon emitter and meson, which is really accurate at medium range, with the right fit. When another beacon is about to turn on, just warp to it and repeat the process…

On combat recon: If you are the cap, just slaughter anything that tries to come near you. With the bonus damage you can tear apart everything… If you are not the cap, you just stay in the middle of the field guarding the area. If the enemy is using a frigate as their cap, just warp near him when the time is just about to run out, and unleash tempest and photon on it.

On team battle: stay in the middle of the field again, if you get in danger, just warp away.

Do you see the problem now? Destroyers are the toughest ship in the game; they outgun gunships; they have almost the same mobility as recons in beacon hunt (the warp cooldown is lower than the active time of a beacon, so you can just warp to the next one every time); they guard areas better than guards; they have no problems against interceptors; they are effective at long range; with their static shields, they are more protected than a command under diffusion shield, or they can regen themselves with drones, making them able to survive without an engine.

They outclass almost every other ship in the game.

That they are the toughest is due their class. Or isn’t a fighter normally tougher as an inty?!

Gunship has 4 turrets. Destroyer can use 8.

Effective at long range is something different.

Static shield = useless vs. any explosive/piercing. Same for the drones.

Mobility is the same in beacon hunt. That has NOTHING to do with any class. You have the time the beacon is active and the time the next will. You can get in time to another with the other ships as well.

69

That they are the toughest is due their class. Or isn’t a fighter normally tougher as an inty?!

Gunship has 4 turrets. Destroyer can use 8.

When do you get that we are talking about balancing and not how something should be in your opinion coz it is called Destroyer: Supressor Class.

A Gunship has max 2 to 3(when you comapre it to an full speed Fed Cov Ops) times the surv and 2times the dmg of an Cov Ops while being half as fast and manoeuvrable.

Destroyers have 4+ times the surv of a Guard, 2times more main weapon dmg, but therefore in every direction not only in front of you and are only a bit slower when you take the Special Module and Warp in count.

When you compare it to an LRF you have the same main weapon dmg but 6+ times the survivability and the same speed.

70

That they are the toughest is due their class. Or isn’t a fighter normally tougher as an inty?!

 

Yes, they’re the toughest due to their class, but they can have almost 6x the toughness of a jerry guard, while, for example, a fed fighter has 1,5x/2x the toughness of a fed interceptor.

 

 

Gunship has 4 turrets. Destroyer can use 8.
 

What does that mean??? Gunships are supposed to be the highest dps ship in the game together with LRFs! Then just lower the damage of each destroyer turret, Jesus Christ!

 

Effective at long range is something different.
 

They have the highest achievable main weapon range, while all the other ships have a maximum of 5k when stacking 2+ Orizon modules, which also decrease damage, while a coign + range implant is already over 4.7k 

 

Static shield = useless vs. any explosive/piercing. 

 

That’s right, but try to hit with coil mortar an antares  going over 350 m/s with 30+ rotation that’s 5km away, while it’s shooting at you. 

 

Mobility is the same in beacon hunt. That has NOTHING to do with any class. You have the time the beacon is active and the time the next will. You can get in time to another with the other ships as well.

 

It’s not the same. On beacon hunt, you can camp a beacon for its entire duration, 70 seconds , and then IMMEDIATELY warp to the next one, and camp it again for its entire duration. Normal frigates have to TRAVEL slowly from one beacon to the other. Is it too hard to understand?
 

71

The only way for him to understandabl this all would be flying PvP but since we are to an more or less PvE/Open space player we will need much time to convince him that destroys are not balanced in PvP.

72

 

Every game, even every “team based” game is balanced on 1vs1 situations. This does not mean there needs to be a solution for every class to counter any other class.

My examples as coils lrf/covops plasma vs destroyers were not necessarily only to point out 1vs1 situations;

 

I expect a certain sub-class to be a good counter against some other certain sub-class but then the other expectation kicks in. If a sub-class is good against another, then I expect that same sub-class to be weak against some other sub-class.

If ship “A” is good against ship “B”, then the ship “A” needs to be bad against ship “C”. Same way as the ship “B” needs to be good against the ship “C”. -Ship “C” can be named Ship “D”, “E” etc. in any of the sentences.

A clearer example from my experience would be;(not claiming this is what goes around in SC all the time, just an example from my own gameplay) A decent gunship with singularity cannons (or any other weapon really) and an activated special module will annihilate my Octopus whereas a recon or maybe even an ecm will have to run away from my Octopus if I decide to kill him.

 

A destroyer is good against all sub-classes. A destroyer is good against those ships that are meant to counter the destroyer itself. Destroyers have no practical disadvantage against any other sub-class. The word practical is obviously important there.

 

One of the disadvantages of the structural build of a destroyer is that it is BIG! thus SLOW! Now coming to why those disadvantages are not practical: Being bigger than a frigate is not important at all. We can shoot frigates as long as they are in range, they can not easily avoid incoming damage by the use of W, A, S, D ,Shift, Alt, Space. It does not matter at all if destroyers are bigger than frigates. Best that could happen is that I would land 95% of my hits against a frigate whereas I would land 99% of my hits against a destroyer.

Destroyers also have a damn mobile barrier that is able to sustain huge amounts of fire until it fades/energy regenerates. Only counter to that is using aoe weapons. Mind you most weapons do not have aoe.

Even then, if a team of pilots is attacking your destroyer, you are keeping them busy and your team has a window of offensive and defensive opportunity against the enemy. Killing your target is always easier when he is not actively trying to kill you.

 

They are slow but that is even less of a concern. How slow? Is it as slower as it has more shield/hull volume than a guard frigate? No, they are not much slower than a Jericho or Empire frigate when NOT built for speed. When built for speed, some destroyers rival the speed of a Federation frigate. The same Federation frigate that rivals Empire/Jericho fighters.

 

Even their disadvantage of structural build comes to a halt by their firing angle. A frigate would have to turn its fat butt by mouse and keyboard to face its attacker while a destroyer pilot will have to do the tiring job of moving his cursor without turning and losing time at all.

 

Not to mention Gravity Lens can easily delay the beacon capping of a whole enemy team, meanwhile deactivating most of their Adaptive Shields and damaging those who get close and try to pull the enemy together for an easier team kill - not saying it can actually manage to pull all the enemy team but it constantly tries.

It can also deactivate most of your team’s adaptives and try to pull them when the destroyer placing it fails to do so. It can, at the same time, increase most of your team’s speed so even that disadvantage has a kind of advantage.

 

I understand some people (Don’t get me wrong, not like “some people in this thread” but more like “some people in general”.) act like destroyers take away ALL  the fun for non-destroyer pilots and this can be a bit threatening to a destroyer only pilot. But you have to observe the problems from different points of view. 

73

 

That is pretty much exactly what I wanted to say, and it recaps all the points why destroyers are OP in PvP.

74

Ending yet another discussion with noone from the other side acknowledging.  :011j:

75

Ending yet another discussion with noone from the other side acknowledging.  :011j:

Yup. Lord_Xenon just disappeared 

76

Don’t bother discussing this guys, devs don’t give a xxxx about fixing destroyers.

77

Don’t bother discussing this guys, devs don’t give a xxxx about fixing destroyers.

I think stopping to play this game is the best way to “fix” the destroyer problem

78

I think stopping to play this game is the best way to “fix” the destroyer problem

It is the worst possible choice.

79

Every game, even every “team based” game is balanced on 1vs1 situations. This does not mean there needs to be a solution for every class to counter any other class.

My examples as coils lrf/covops plasma vs destroyers were not necessarily only to point out 1vs1 situations;

I expect a certain sub-class to be a good counter against some other certain sub-class but then the other expectation kicks in. If a sub-class is good against another, then I expect that same sub-class to be weak against some other sub-class.

If ship “A” is good against ship “B”, then the ship “A” needs to be bad against ship “C”. Same way as the ship “B” needs to be good against the ship “C”. -Ship “C” can be named Ship “D”, “E” etc. in any of the sentences.

A clearer example from my experience would be;(not claiming this is what goes around in SC all the time, just an example from my own gameplay) A decent gunship with singularity cannons (or any other weapon really) and an activated special module will annihilate my Octopus whereas a recon or maybe even an ecm will have to run away from my Octopus if I decide to kill him.

A destroyer is good against all sub-classes. A destroyer is good against those ships that are meant to counter the destroyer itself. Destroyers have no practical disadvantage against any other sub-class. The word practical is obviously important there.

One of the disadvantages of the structural build of a destroyer is that it is BIG! thus SLOW! Now coming to why those disadvantages are not practical: Being bigger than a frigate is not important at all. We can shoot frigates as long as they are in range, they can not easily avoid incoming damage by the use of W, A, S, D ,Shift, Alt, Space. It does not matter at all if destroyers are bigger than frigates. Best that could happen is that I would land 95% of my hits against a frigate whereas I would land 99% of my hits against a destroyer.

Destroyers also have a damn mobile barrier that is able to sustain huge amounts of fire until it fades/energy regenerates. Only counter to that is using aoe weapons. Mind you most weapons do not have aoe.

Even then, if a team of pilots is attacking your destroyer, you are keeping them busy and your team has a window of offensive and defensive opportunity against the enemy. Killing your target is always easier when he is not actively trying to kill you.

They are slow but that is even less of a concern. How slow? Is it as slower as it has more shield/hull volume than a guard frigate? No, they are not much slower than a Jericho or Empire frigate when NOT built for speed. When built for speed, some destroyers rival the speed of a Federation frigate. The same Federation frigate that rivals Empire/Jericho fighters.

Even their disadvantage of structural build comes to a halt by their firing angle. A frigate would have to turn its fat butt by mouse and keyboard to face its attacker while a destroyer pilot will have to do the tiring job of moving his cursor without turning and losing time at all.

Not to mention Gravity Lens can easily delay the beacon capping of a whole enemy team, meanwhile deactivating most of their Adaptive Shields and damaging those who get close and try to pull the enemy together for an easier team kill - not saying it can actually manage to pull all the enemy team but it constantly tries.

It can also deactivate most of your team’s adaptives and try to pull them when the destroyer placing it fails to do so. It can, at the same time, increase most of your team’s speed so even that disadvantage has a kind of advantage.

I understand some people (Don’t get me wrong, not like “some people in this thread” but more like “some people in general”.) act like destroyers take away ALL the fun for non-destroyer pilots and this can be a bit threatening to a destroyer only pilot. But you have to observe the problems from different points of view.

What you write is to some extend correct. But how many times a frigate stay wide open? I saw next to none. They are always near some structures to hide from focus fire. This is something you can’t do as easy with destroyers. What you describe is being wide open in space without any obstacles able to fire anytime. Yes you need ‘to point’ at your target, but mostly you look where you are flying or not?

80

What you write is to some extend correct. But how many times a frigate stay wide open? I saw next to none. They are always near some structures to hide from focus fire. This is something you can’t do as easy with destroyers. What you describe is being wide open in space without any obstacles able to fire anytime. Yes you need ‘to point’ at your target, but mostly you look where you are flying or not?

Funny, I was able to use cover when I was leveling my R8 Destroyer. Or you can just teleport out of weapons range - you don’t need cover if they can’t hit you back! You know, like LRFs do when they sit above the map and snipe from 10K up?