Destroyers in Beacon Matches

41

>>The highest DPS in the game, period<<

Right, but apples and pears or? 2/4/6 vs. 8 turrets…

How does this in any way address his argument? ‘Destroyers have high dps’ ‘Don’t compare them with ships that have less dps’

>># A module that can do direct hull damage in a large radius<<

Covert Ops have this too you know against destroyers? And every ship can do this too against destroyers! Not to mention about ANYTIME additional damage possible with module destruction. HOW MANY OTHER CLASSES HAVE THIS WEAKNESS?

Covert ops don’t have a module that can do ‘direct hull damage in a large radius’, even if they can do direct damage to destroyers they can’t do it to every ship class, which destroyers can.

>>The same module can render all adaptive builds useless with its gravity<<

Guards, ECM and Tackler share this ability. Nothing new to destroyers.

Only the guard can use this on more than one ship at a time, and just because other ships can have the same ability doesn’t make it balanced that one class can do all these things and many others, all at the same time with minimal drawback. What is the point of playing a guard right now when you can do the same and more with a destroyer?

>># With 2 adaptives there is an additional 90 pts of resistance on the hull and shield (remember continuous afterburners?)

Traveling at a base speed of 212 m/s (By comparison, the Tormentor S (R12 Guard) has a base speed of 201m/s, and the Grizzly M has a default speed of 346 m/s)<<

A giant brick flying around doesn’t care me really. Its manoeuvrability is the bad. Every other ship can easy outrun this. PS: Tormentor is a J, so please compare just J with J and F with F shipclass as faction have different inherit traits. This sound more like trying to engage 1 on 1. Sorry Pro, you can’t just roflstomp over it. Q.Q now about that?

Again, you missed the point, which was that adaptives are more effective than normal on a destroyer with huge hull/shield volumes.

‘Adressing’ sound like it’s an issue. Other way around: Why SHOULDN’T destroyer have more turrets? As they are way bigger? Second they aren’t as flexible as other classes. So they can’t use those turrets all the time.

To the direct damage: No other class have the damage to hull like destroyers, why should it this weakness not be an advantage of this class as well? But for you: Why you don’t make a suggestion with your solution? Maybe you find enough persons agreeing with it/devs accept it.

>>Only the guard can use this on more than one ship at a time, and just because other ships can have the same ability doesn’t make it balanced that one class can do all these things and many others, all at the same time with minimal drawback. What is the point of playing a guard right now when you can do the same and more with a destroyer?<<

How about no? Tackler can use it on multiple targets at the same time, you just need the strategy with gravi. Same with ECM special.

Same and other things are shared between classes. Why we don’t start removing this cross-specials? ECM will only prevent using weapon/module usage? Guard can’t remove afterburner? Tackler lose their drones?

LRF lose their RT? WHY should all those classes have the ability of another class? 2-class thinking? Destroyer/the rest? You have no argument with this.

For you: A guard is more flexible, anomaly, have pulsar and MPI.

You can make a suggestion to alter/increase the weakness of something.

To the regen: Nope I don’t miss the point. Adaptives are more effective ON EVERY SITUATION WITH TANKY SHIPS. Adaptives on J vs. E.

Adaptives on inty vs. Figther.

And so ON.

100 dollar are more than 10 dollar.

It’s a basic statement, not an argument!

At least you have thougt constructive about things with hidden changepotential. Better as all the Q.Q read in this thread.

42

One question: where you ever flying vs a R11 Destroyer in PvP while not flying your own destroyer?

43

Wow guys, you’ve all totally missed the point. Destroyers are underpowered. They’re such big targets and they’re so slow it takes me at least 20 seconds to get out of engagements with four or five people shooting at me! That’s almost enough time for them to blow me up – totally ridiculous. If you wanna say that I could get out with wormhole, that takes a lot of energy, and also has a super long cooldown at about one minute!

 

It makes so much more sense to shoot at people from 6km away with coilgun. It deals a lot of damage from far away if you reduce the spread enough! But the best long range weapon is definitely photon cannon, what with a fast projectile and a giant trigger radius. Speaking of photon cannon, they should take out the self damage, it’s way to easy to accidentally hit an interceptor orbiting you with it and blow yourself up. Another reason why destroyers are too weak!

 

Oh yeah, and black hole is totally dumb. I tried to use it on a beacon hunt match, but I accidentally aimed it too far from the beacon. The enemy team could capture it even though I was shooting at them too, by staying completely still and using the beacon as cover. That’s ridiculous, I want to deny the beacon like a ship class called “suppressor” should be able to! For the entire 70 seconds, not a measly 30. Oh, we could buff the black hole by doing more damage over a longer time! C’mon, it’s called a BLACK HOLE, it should be huge.

 

But yeah, the destroyer is weak. Stargem buff pls.

44

One question: where you ever flying vs a R11 Destroyer in PvP while not flying your own destroyer?

Yes. I often survive, especially thanks to ECM.

45

So when you know SO much about this game and how balancing works then name me more then one f***ing case where it is more usefull to choice a Empire Long Range Frigate then an Destroyer.

46

So when you know SO much about this game and how balancing works then name me more then one f***ing case where it is more usefull to choice a Empire Long Range Frigate then an Destroyer.

I would say LRFs in dreadnought battles, but even those guys can have their job replaced…

47

I would say LRFs in dreadnought battles, but even those guys can have their job replaced…

I mainly wanted to talk about normal PvP …

I’m not sure can one Photon Emitter oeshot a torp? Coz this is the main reason ELRF got so popular in Dreadnought battles.

48

I mainly wanted to talk about normal PvP …

I’m not sure can one Photon Emitter oeshot a torp? Coz this is the main reason ELRF got so popular in Dreadnought battles.

 

I’d say a rather quick destroyer build on the Antares can use a Photon Emitter to hunt down the sniper LRFs - even evade some of their shots if one got the rythm of their shots- but must not: it could just fly out to it kill it from 5-6 or 7km range and back to friendly lines … :wink: - it really depends on the dessy build up and the pilot skills! The only thing that saves a sniper LRF is the pre-selected cover nearby (rock, structure, etc.pp.)

49

So when you know SO much about this game and how balancing works then name me more then one f***ing case where it is more usefull to choice a Empire Long Range Frigate then an Destroyer.

If there are many heavy ships on the enemy side. Easy targets to hit.

If you need backup for your team in large obstacle maps(like the one with big asteroids).

50

If there are many heavy ships on the enemy side. Easy targets to hit.

What do you understand under heavy ships? Destroyer and guards? When yes your statement is wrong. Both classes have very good ‘counters’ vs long range frigates (Anomaly generator and Photon Emitter) so you couldn’t use your Disintegrator and a destroyer has more damage at mid range and more survivability so you wouldn’t be useful

51

What do you understand under heavy ships? Destroyer and guards? When yes your statement is wrong. Both classes have very good ‘counters’ vs long range frigates (Anomaly generator and Photon Emitter) so you couldn’t use your Disintegrator and a destroyer has more damage at mid range and more survivability so you wouldn’t be useful

Frigates and destroyers in general. Even to some extend commands.

I don’t say, that you should only shoot those, as the more agile, but few inties/fighters are then your primary target. Sometimes it’s alone the ‘presents’ of a sniper that block the enemy team.

In a destroyer you would either be next to useless or everytime a target for the enemy team.

But your general problem seem to be the ELRF. You got a new counter and seem to Q.Q about that. You even argue it would be OP against all the others if they would buff/alter them. Make no sense or? Whining that they are useless, but saying they would be OP with changes…

52

Frigates and destroyers in general. Even to some extend commands.

I don’t say, that you should only shoot those, as the more agile, but few inties/fighters are then your primary target. Sometimes it’s alone the ‘presents’ of a sniper that block the enemy team.

In a destroyer you would either be next to useless or everytime a target for the enemy team.

But your general problem seem to be the ELRF. You got a new counter and seem to Q.Q about that. You even argue it would be OP against all the others if they would buff/alter them. Make no sense or? Whining that they are useless, but saying they would be OP with changes…

You really should play more PvP. I don’t know if you ever played LRF vs a good team and/or if you know how powerful the disintegrator still is when you don’t have a Anomaly generator guard and/or destroyer with Photon Emitter in the enemies team. Lrf get uselles vs such teams. And have you ever played league vs a goof team like Ninja who has like 6 destroyers and a Brook in their Lineup? You don’t have a chance vs them coz destroyer have a ridiculous amount off hull and shields points and when you don’t have enough in your team you are completely f***end. You can then only try to cap the beacons but you can’t win a team fight.

I used all the time ELRF as an example why destroyer aren’t balanced coz it is the easiest example in my opinion. But it looks like you don’t have any real PvP experience to understand what I’m trying to say.

GiT GuD

53

You really should play more PvP. I don’t know if you ever played LRF vs a good team and/or if you know how powerful the disintegrator still is when you don’t have a Anomaly generator guard and/or destroyer with Photon Emitter in the enemies team. Lrf get uselles vs such teams. And have you ever played league vs a goof team like Ninja who has like 6 destroyers and a Brook in their Lineup? You don’t have a chance vs them coz destroyer have a ridiculous amount off hull and shields points and when you don’t have enough in your team you are completely f***end. You can then only try to cap the beacons but you can’t win a team fight.

I used all the time ELRF as an example why destroyer aren’t balanced coz it is the easiest example in my opinion. But it looks like you don’t have any real PvP experience to understand what I’m trying to say.

GiT GuD

Okay only Q.Q about a counter to your beloved ELRF?

Sounds for me balanced. OP vs. certain ships and have counter from others.

And ‘easiest’ example is NOT BALANCE. IT’s the total picture! Or is it balanced, that a covert ops can eat an engi alive?! NO.

And the TANK-SITUATION show your problem!

>>ridiculous amount off hull and shields points<<

How do you think if your enemy have only 1-2 destroyers? They are easy prey for focus fire!

SECOND, what is with the 2 NON-destroyer ships? Why you don’t HUNT THEM?

Use 1-2 ECM in your setup and many flexible stuff. Then try out not to TANK-FOCUS. That’s the rule of EVERY FREAKIN MMO! Having TANKS EATING THE DAMAGE AND BEING HEALED.

54

Option 5: remove destroyers from PVP and restrict them to PVE/open space.

As someone said, you are treating the symptom here, and not the disease.

55

Okay only Q.Q about a counter to your beloved ELRF?

Sounds for me balanced. OP vs. certain ships and have counter from others.

And ‘easiest’ example is NOT BALANCE. IT’s the total picture! Or is it balanced, that a covert ops can eat an engi alive?! NO.

And the TANK-SITUATION show your problem!

>>ridiculous amount off hull and shields points<<

How do you think if your enemy have only 1-2 destroyers? They are easy prey for focus fire!

SECOND, what is with the 2 NON-destroyer ships? Why you don’t HUNT THEM?

Use 1-2 ECM in your setup and many flexible stuff. Then try out not to TANK-FOCUS. That’s the rule of EVERY FREAKIN MMO! Having TANKS EATING THE DAMAGE AND BEING HEALED.

1- (For the thread) Removing destroyers from any kind of battle mode is a ridiculous solution. Expecting them to remove destroyers from any kind of battle mode is just as ridiculous.

 

2- (For the quote) You lose credibility when you start replying to a thread with a post that says “destroyer problem is non-existing”. I do not care about destroyers when I see them as my enemy because I avoid them. That does not change the fact that they cause problems that will most probably never be addressed. Reducing volume of hull/shield for destroyers by a kind of big margin seems to be the most viable solution but I do not see such a change coming.

 

3- Only “big threats” for destroyers are coils lrf and covops in a 1vs1 scenario. Even then, a lrf is easy to lay waste when the destroyer notices where he is and an equally “skilled” covops will not do much damage against the destroyer who is built to kill agile targets in a 1vs1 scenario. Destroyers are “big threats” for every single class when built properly.

 

4- Showing “focus fire” as an enemy of destroyers is a weak arguement. Every class is prey to focus fire. If a number of pilots decide to destroy your ship, best you can do is delaying that by tackler/interceptor stealth/camouflage or destroyer/engineer/recon warp.

56

1- (For the thread) Removing destroyers from any kind of battle mode is a ridiculous solution. Expecting them to remove destroyers from any kind of battle mode is just as ridiculous.

2- (For the quote) You lose credibility when you start replying to a thread with a post that says “destroyer problem is non-existing”. I do not care about destroyers when I see them as my enemy because I avoid them. That does not change the fact that they cause problems that will most probably never be addressed. Reducing volume of hull/shield for destroyers by a kind of big margin seems to be the most viable solution but I do not see such a change coming.

3- Only “big threats” for destroyers are coils lrf and covops in a 1vs1 scenario. Even then, a lrf is easy to lay waste when the destroyer notices where he is and an equally “skilled” covops will not do much damage against the destroyer who is built to kill agile targets in a 1vs1 scenario. Destroyers are “big threats” for every single class when built properly.

4- Showing “focus fire” as an enemy of destroyers is a weak arguement. Every class is prey to focus fire. If a number of pilots decide to destroy your ship, best you can do is delaying that by tackler/interceptor stealth/camouflage or destroyer/engineer/recon warp.

To 2): Many have stated, that a few destroyers are hardly causing a problem. If a destroyer by THEMSELF would be such a problem, this destroyer would have such an impact that even devs would investigate.

To the shield/hull: This is hardly discussable. With all modules ripped, a F/J destroyer without any hull would lose 1/2-3/4 of their hull alone from this. Additionally they are left without any function out of their turrets. That is non-existent for any other class. The counter to this IS investing in hull. I already made a note about this(and to fix it). So reducing the hull would cause easy OS situation. To the shield: Those aren’t so far away from frigates ones. So reducing these would make them way easier prone to module damage → with your other suggestion way easier OS.

This bring me to ‘your focus fire’. I don’t mean with that ‘Deadhunters’. I mean you see a target - you shoot it. A destroyer is a way bigger target as any other and easier spotted. So you have way higher chance, that at least 2+ player without any hint shoot him. And with the unflexibility of destroyer themself, they need to go wide open to have their potential which make them a longer time a target AND focusprone. This is not comparable like with an inty go into the enemy lay a bomb/do something and fly out.

To the 1 vs. 1: This game is not about 1 vs. 1. Get an ECM+Covert and your destroyer is a flying brick with turrets.

57

To the 1 vs. 1: This game is not about 1 vs. 1. Get an ECM+Covert and your destroyer is a flying brick with turrets.

So the game is about 1v2 or what?

This bring me to ‘your focus fire’. I don’t mean with that ‘Deadhunters’. I mean you see a target - you shoot it. A destroyer is a way bigger target as any other and easier spotted. So you have way higher chance, that at least 2+ player without any hint shoot him. And with the unflexibility of destroyer themself, they need to go wide open to have their potential which make them a longer time a target AND focusprone. This is not comparable like with an inty go into the enemy lay a bomb/do something and fly out.

when a destroyer is easier to spot then a frigate for you then you maybe shouldn’t play at 20km range or get some glasses. And since when does the size of a ship change the amount of people shooting at it after this logic a battle has to be 16+vs8 when one side has only Destroyer and the other none. And destroyers don’t have to go white open, they are also strong in closed rooms like Leviathan and the other little tube map coz you can#t evade stuff like Pyro Emitter so easy since you have walls all around you.

58

@Lord_Xenon

 

Do you know what the word “balance” means in PvP? It means that every ship role has a specific function where it excels, and that every ship is viable. For example, let’s compare a guard to a destroyer: a good J guard ship has approximately 25k shield, and when fitted properly can have up to 80/80/80 points of resistance. It has very low dps. It is really slow (most of them can’t go over 210 with AB on). Their modules allow them to negate ab for a 15 seconds (not sure about this), destroy missiles, regenerate shield and hull at 1200/s (for 15 seconds, and with long cooldown) and use pulsar to deny an area to interceptors. Let’s compare this with a rank 11 Sybil (Because, you know, let’s compare J with J!) It can be fitted to reach 1000 shield regen/s constantly, have insanely high resistances, deny ab and beacon capture with Blackhole for 30s, have incredibly high dps at medium range with meson, destroy each inty that tries to knife you with the press of 1 button (Photon torpedo) and snipe around with it, use a turret that deals the same damage as a supernova singularity cannon but with more projectile speed and RoF… Do I have to continue? And don’t remember that it can warp 5km away, while it should be the SLOWEST class in the game.

 

And I could compare ths class with all the other ones, and still prove that destroyers are better. 

59

To the 1 vs. 1: This game is not about 1 vs. 1. Get an ECM+Covert and your destroyer is a flying brick with turrets.

LOL. How can this game be not about 1v1? Show me another ship class that cannot be 1v1ed! Also, an ECM has limited stuns, you know? A Brave fitted for tank has about 250k hull, with medium resistance, and can easily survive the damage of a covops knifing you and using its main weapon… Your team has all the time to come and save you. 

60

LOL. How can this game be not about 1v1? Show me another ship class that cannot be 1v1ed! Also, an ECM has limited stuns, you know? A Brave fitted for tank has about 250k hull, with medium resistance, and can easily survive the damage of a covops knifing you and using its main weapon… Your team has all the time to come and save you.

And don’t forget every stun is less effective then the one before