a) You are on their radar = everyone see you.
If everyone see you = dead by torpedo(can be easily dodged coz you can hear it in time and it has slow projectiles speed (which isn’t so with the Photon Emitter )) of frigates or anomly from guard (which is too stong atm in my opinion but this is another discussion, and Guards have to expose themslef to the open and stnad still for 2 sec while a destroyer can use the Photon Emitter while flying ).
Tackler/Covert Ops can ambush you too (and they aren’t near a threat when they get piloted by an N00b, and even so many moderate to good player make the mistake to stand still behind a ELRF). NO feature of destroyer. If that isn’t enough: Countersniper from ELRF/JLRF possible (they are LRF and not Tank/Dmg Dealer with range). Choosing to support your team by standing behind(maybe wide open) is balanced from being not able to react fast at incoming (I’m not completely sure what you want to say me with this sentence). And common: One hit should be possible for a LRF to survive!(I’m not talking about only one hit, a destroyer can also survive one hit, a Inty can it too)
d) What is with your main weapons. Accidently removed from your ship? (Do you even know that the Modules dmg depends on your main weapon and besides that where is the point to use an ELRF in close Range when there are Destroyer ?! they have more dmg more tnak more speed)A LRF isn’t just about their special module! Second: Maybe bad position choosen(Why bad position, a Destroyer can hit me always when I can hit him ?) if you can’t hit other targets/be a long time open for the destroyer? ()(A ELRF can be used with Disintegrator only coz of the long weapon range an moderate DPS (4342 vs Intys and Figher, 5000vs Frigates and 8289 vs Destroyer; you can only get such high number with either an mk5 Mass Driver or and Mk5 Positron Cannon)
e) has nothing to do with this problem. For me photon are easy to see. (They aren’t that easy to see when you have the blue overlay and a very low field of view, and you can’t zoom out and zoom in again, like you can with snipers in other games)
Out of the blue context: You have no real argument. You agree that other things can harm you while using the special module too.
To the bad position: Obstacles are your friend. Staying in the open is your problem with handling, not with the shipclass. And if you can see the destroyer, you know that he can use the photon against you. If you then just ignore the potential threat, it’s again your lack of situational awareness.
The statement e) is especially a complaint to the LRF ITSELF not about the destroyers. So it’s invalid for this topic.
Destroyers are fine by themselves, but if a team spawns multiples (2+) then it becomes ridiculous.
I’ve played against nab corps in dreads who only spam destroyers and it is only to compensate for their complete lack of skill.
I will try to sum up my arguments again:
Destroyers are
- fast(at least compared to an ELRF)
- have high mid range(5km) dps
- very high survivability
- can have a 10km module with min 1200dps (while decreasing EM ressistants of the target) and outdamge an LRF with it
- never has to stop
Empire LRF:
- weaker
- slower
- same DPS as Destroyers (when you ignore the destroyers modules)
- has to stop moving and wait 3sec until you can make one shot with your disintegrator and is easily visible then coz of the laser
I don’t have a problem with everything about Destroyers, IMO they can too much different stuff at once. It would be a beginning when they would nerf the Photon Emitter (like 6km max range and/or lower projectile speed)
Fast: Not really. Without using the special module and build for speed they aren’t even as fast as slow frigates. Second they need a longer time to even reach this speed. Try to get out and in safety and try the same with a frigate. Not even comparable. And just comparing EMPIRE is a flaw. As they aren’t build for SPEED. So taking the slowest vs. the fastest or the weakest vs. the tankiest is no real comparison.
>>have high mid range(5km) dps<<
Woot? Against what? Big structures? Their dps is not really high at such distance. Coil have the hightest dps comparing the drawbacks of all three weapons, but fall behind LRF.
>>very high survivability
No doubt. But more as 3x the size of a frigate. 2x instead of 1.5x the damage from AoE. DAMAGE FROM DESTROYED MODULES. The speedfactor is even worse as frigates. ALL those balance their survivability.
>>can have a 10km module with min 1200dps (while decreasing EM ressistants of the target) and outdamge an LRF with it
That has no lead indicator, huge energy consume and relative slow speed. Being hit by it mean a skilled user. Do you even have used it by yourself?
>>never has to stop
What a flawed logic! Tempest shoot all around if you turn.
Pyro miss your target or can stuck into an obstacle due your moving.
Turrets have a small range so moving maybe away from your target remove them as modules.
Photon has drawbacks that balance it.
Compared to all other shipclasses, destroyer need to stay wide open to use all their potential. They can’t just look around an obstacle, shoot all modules and turrets, like any other class can do.
Fast: Not really. Without using the special module and build for speed they aren’t even as fast as slow frigates. Second they need a longer time to even reach this speed. Try to get out and in safety and try the same with a frigate. Not even comparable. And just comparing EMPIRE is a flaw. As they aren’t build for SPEED. So taking the slowest vs. the fastest or the weakest vs. the tankiest is no real comparison.
Yes they have slow acceleration, but they have a wormhole projector which is why I say they are “fast” and with their special module they are as fast as Jei or Emp frigates. And I’m not comparing these classes to show which one is better, I do it to show that a Destro with Photon Emitter renders ELRF useless.
No doubt. But more as 3x the size of a frigate. 2x instead of 1.5x the damage from AoE. DAMAGE FROM DESTROYED MODULES. The speedfactor is even worse as frigates. ALL those balance their survivability.
The size isn’t a real drawback coz Frigates are as easy to hit as Destroyer. And the modules get mostly ONLY destroyed when you get attacked by Explosive Weapons.
That has no lead indicator, huge energy consume and relative slow speed. Being hit by it mean a skilled user. Do you even have used it by yourself?
Why do you need an lead indicator extra for you module, you just have to remember where you have to aim compared to your lead marker, torps also don`t have one. And I don’t have an r11 destryoer coz I don’t have the ressources to build one. To the energy point, I see enough destroyer with like 8k energy and 250+ energy regeneration and you can easily decrease the energy consumption of one module down to less then 950en when you use Implant and Syn bonus.
I don’t have a problem with everything about Destroyers, IMO they can too much different stuff at once.
This x 10,000. I’d be more okay with them if they didn’t have a fxcking teleport module that takes away the punishment from being out of position in a slow ship
Yes wornhole projector should be disabled to use in PVP, or at least severe nerfed. Only 1 use in every match with a cooldown of 60 seconds at start.
Yes they have slow acceleration, but they have a wormhole projector which is why I say they are “fast” and with their special module they are as fast as Jei or Emp frigates. And I’m not comparing these classes to show which one is better, I do it to show that a Destro with Photon Emitter renders ELRF useless.
The size isn’t a real drawback coz Frigates are as easy to hit as Destroyer. And the modules get mostly ONLY destroyed when you get attacked by Explosive Weapons.
Why do you need an lead indicator extra for you module, you just have to remember where you have to aim compared to your lead marker, torps also don`t have one. And I don’t have an r11 destryoer coz I don’t have the ressources to build one. To the energy point, I see enough destroyer with like 8k energy and 250+ energy regeneration and you can easily decrease the energy consumption of one module down to less then 950en when you use Implant and Syn bonus.
Can you please provide numbers with specs? Because using the slowest frigates isn’t a comparison without any other data. AND YES YOU NEED. You compare them. You say destroyer > them so you need to prove it!
The size IS a drawback. Or do you think an inty is as easy to aim at as a destroyer? If it wouldn’t matter, all ships can get the same size. Like being so huge like the cruiser. And no. Not only explosives can destroy modules. EVERY weapon can do it. Just a matter of aiming.
Because you compare photon to the special module. YOU make the comparison. So every drawback IS a drawback. Not just picking the advantages out to ‘show’ something is off! And what you describe is SPECING extra for that module. This mean lacking in other areas. So not entire WITHOUT a drawback.
Comparison is not only about POSITIVES. It’s about all
But with your ELRF argumentation you seem to make a hidden complaint about them. a) you need to stand still b) you need 3+s for using it.
Why not make a suggestion to buff/alter it, if it annoy you so much?
And the LRF have with Reverse Thrusters next to the same as Wormhole projector. So again not the point just for destroyer.
Destroyers are not > all. They are just easier for no-skill Aces to do well in than other ships. Also they are a pain in the xxxx to kill, and require teamwork to kill, which is non-existant in the current version of the game.
Git gud, and stop defending them please.
Destroyers are not > all. They are just easier for no-skill Aces to do well in than other ships. Also they are a pain in the xxxx to kill, and require teamwork to kill, which is non-existant in the current version of the game.
Git gud, and stop defending them please.
Technically speaking there are counters to them but it doesn’t make a ball of them any more balanced.
That will not going to happen. Destroyer is a challenge only if it has skilled pilot. And this challange is still possible task.
I would agree that there are a large number of really bad destroyer pilots.
But…
It doesn’t really matter how bad you are when you have:
- A full 2 times the survivability of even the tankiest non-destroyer ship (I haven’t seen a guard with more than 100k survivability, yet even destroyers not built for tank have 200k+)
- The highest DPS in the game, period
- The longest range of fire in the game for main weapons (5100m base without implants for halo launcher, the shortest range)
- A module that can do direct hull damage in a large radius
- The same module can render all adaptive builds useless with its gravity
- The same module can deny an enemy team from capturing a beacon for 30s
- A module that can 2-shot any LRF in the game at 10000 m, the same distance a R15 Jericho Torp can travel, and just 2000 m less than the max Empire range
- A module that allows the biggest ship in the game to warp itself, its modules and its weapons 5000 m
- Barriers that prevent any all damage that is not explosive from doing any damage to the ship, -OR-
- Drones that perform 215 pts of healing per second per drone
All of that leads to this:
- With 3 healing drones and the Jericho energy route, the Antares can regenerate 1045 hit points per second on top of normal healing, on top of engineering frigates
- The Antares can be built to have a enough energy regen to allow continuous use of afterburners and modules, while still maintaining a survivability of approximately 200k
- With 2 adaptives there is an additional 90 pts of resistance on the hull and shield (remember continuous afterburners?)
- Traveling at a base speed of 212 m/s (By comparison, the Tormentor S (R12 Guard) has a base speed of 201m/s, and the Grizzly M has a default speed of 346 m/s)
With those stats, no matter how bad you are at this game, you still pose a legitimate threat to even the best players, with the best ships and modules, with competent teammates.
Any pilot who has ever played with or against destroyers knows how overpowered they are. Before trying to say that destroyers are easy, try and kill a few.
Can you please provide numbers with specs? Because using the slowest frigates isn’t a comparison without any other data. AND YES YOU NEED. You compare them. You say destroyer > them so you need to prove it!
The size IS a drawback. Or do you think an inty is as easy to aim at as a destroyer? If it wouldn’t matter, all ships can get the same size. Like being so huge like the cruiser. And no. Not only explosives can destroy modules. EVERY weapon can do it. Just a matter of aiming.
Because you compare photon to the special module. YOU make the comparison. So every drawback IS a drawback. Not just picking the advantages out to ‘show’ something is off! And what you describe is SPECING extra for that module. This mean lacking in other areas. So not entire WITHOUT a drawback.
Comparison is not only about POSITIVES. It’s about all
But with your ELRF argumentation you seem to make a hidden complaint about them. a) you need to stand still b) you need 3+s for using it.
Why not make a suggestion to buff/alter it, if it annoy you so much?
And the LRF have with Reverse Thrusters next to the same as Wormhole projector. So again not the point just for destroyer.
a)Reverse Thrusters decrease your Resistant and you can’t
b)my argumentation is and was all the time that BALANCING MEANS THAT EVERY CLASS SHOULD HAVE IT PLACE AND SHOULDN’T RENDERED USELESS COZ OF A DIFFERENT CLASS
c) the 3s and standing still is fine, without it they would become to strong (at least in my opinion, but not nearly as much as Destroyer are)
d) I know that every weapon can destroy modules, but I wanna see YOU to hit either a module on the other side of the destroyer or from 2km+, and this get even harder when you have to much effect on your screen
Since I can’t upvote on my phone, I just say,thx
a)Reverse Thrusters decrease your Resistant and you can’t
b)my argumentation is and was all the time that BALANCING MEANS THAT EVERY CLASS SHOULD HAVE IT PLACE AND SHOULDN’T RENDERED USELESS COZ OF A DIFFERENT CLASS
c) the 3s and standing still is fine, without it they would become to strong (at least in my opinion, but not nearly as much as Destroyer are)
d) I know that every weapon can destroy modules, but I wanna see YOU to hit either a module on the other side of the destroyer or from 2km+, and this get even harder when you have to much effect on your screen
For 2s. But you jump immediately instead of 7s+ for the wormhole.
b) JLRF can stand behind obstacles and can’t be hit. Balanced for me. So it isn’t the entire LRF class debalanced by destroyer. So no real argument here. Using a specific case to justify the removing? Sorry that’s not balance. That’s COUNTER.
c) Then don’t speak about it if you find it fine. Make no sense to demonise it and in the same sentence defending it. That’s balance.
d) You know that’s a balance parameter? Would you easily kill every time for 5k-40k DIRECT TO HULL, and at the time removing abilities of destroyers, they would be need even more compensated for this WEAKNESS.
@iam:
>>A full 2 times the survivability of even the tankiest non-destroyer ship (I haven’t seen a guard with more than 100k survivability, yet even destroyers not built for tank have 200k+)<<
Take more damage from explosives. Way bigger target, direct to hull damage, DAMAGE from module damage and slower. How many of these points are shared by other classes?
>>The highest DPS in the game, period<<
Right, but apples and pears or? 2/4/6 vs. 8 turrets…
>># The longest range of fire in the game for main weapons (5100m base without implants for halo launcher, the shortest range)<<
Not any weapon has >5km range. Not without any fittings. 4400m for Coil, 4600 or so meson and 3700 or so halo. Nothing close to your statement. Frigates have with blaster 4km which come close to meson. I haven’t the other datas in mind, but they are likely only 70% of the destroyers values.
>># A module that can do direct hull damage in a large radius<<
Covert Ops have this too you know against destroyers? And every ship can do this too against destroyers! Not to mention about ANYTIME additional damage possible with module destruction. HOW MANY OTHER CLASSES HAVE THIS WEAKNESS?
>>The same module can render all adaptive builds useless with its gravity<<
Guards, ECM and Tackler share this ability. Nothing new to destroyers.
>>A module that can 2-shot any LRF in the game at 10000 m, the same distance a R15 Jericho Torp can travel, and just 2000 m less than the max Empire range<<
Totally false argument. Read even John stating that your argument is false. The module can’t shoot behind obstacles.
>># Barriers that prevent any all damage that is not explosive from doing any damage to the ship, -OR-
Drones that perform 215 pts of healing per second per drone <<
That’s false. Piercing go through too. And barriers don’t give you an all-around protection. You still can shoot at places of the HUGE ship not covered with it. To the drones: They can be destroyed.
>># With 2 adaptives there is an additional 90 pts of resistance on the hull and shield (remember continuous afterburners?)
Traveling at a base speed of 212 m/s (By comparison, the Tormentor S (R12 Guard) has a base speed of 201m/s, and the Grizzly M has a default speed of 346 m/s)<<
A giant brick flying around doesn’t care me really. Its manoeuvrability is the bad. Every other ship can easy outrun this. PS: Tormentor is a J, so please compare just J with J and F with F shipclass as faction have different inherit traits. This sound more like trying to engage 1 on 1. Sorry Pro, you can’t just roflstomp over it. Q.Q now about that?
I have engaged, destroyed and survived destroyers. And in tournaments it show, like in every other competive skilled TEAMPLAY, that more destroyer doesn’t mean AUTOWIN.
Defending has nothing to do with this. You haven’t the all-in-one ship without any weaknesses. Next to every of your argument can be countered with ‘but there is some counter/weakness’.
>>The highest DPS in the game, period<<
Right, but apples and pears or? 2/4/6 vs. 8 turrets…
How does this in any way address his argument? ‘Destroyers have high dps’ ‘Don’t compare them with ships that have less dps’
>># A module that can do direct hull damage in a large radius<<
Covert Ops have this too you know against destroyers? And every ship can do this too against destroyers! Not to mention about ANYTIME additional damage possible with module destruction. HOW MANY OTHER CLASSES HAVE THIS WEAKNESS?
Covert ops don’t have a module that can do ‘direct hull damage in a large radius’, even if they can do direct damage to destroyers they can’t do it to every ship class, which destroyers can.
>>The same module can render all adaptive builds useless with its gravity<<
Guards, ECM and Tackler share this ability. Nothing new to destroyers.
Only the guard can use this on more than one ship at a time, and just because other ships can have the same ability doesn’t make it balanced that one class can do all these things and many others, all at the same time with minimal drawback. What is the point of playing a guard right now when you can do the same and more with a destroyer?
>># With 2 adaptives there is an additional 90 pts of resistance on the hull and shield (remember continuous afterburners?)
Traveling at a base speed of 212 m/s (By comparison, the Tormentor S (R12 Guard) has a base speed of 201m/s, and the Grizzly M has a default speed of 346 m/s)<<
A giant brick flying around doesn’t care me really. Its manoeuvrability is the bad. Every other ship can easy outrun this. PS: Tormentor is a J, so please compare just J with J and F with F shipclass as faction have different inherit traits. This sound more like trying to engage 1 on 1. Sorry Pro, you can’t just roflstomp over it. Q.Q now about that?
Again, you missed the point, which was that adaptives are more effective than normal on a destroyer with huge hull/shield volumes.
Do adaps get also activated when you fly at more then 110% of your base speed while using only you special module and no afterburners.
Do adaps get also activated when you fly at more then 110% of your base speed while using only you special module and no afterburners.
Don’t know about destroyers but they will if you have the speed buff from team battle/gunship speed module
Do adaps get also activated when you fly at more then 110% of your base speed while using only you special module and no afterburners.
No. You need afterburner or a buff for that.
Don’t know about destroyers but they will if you have the speed buff from team battle/gunship speed module
Or always when you fly 700m/s
No. You need afterburner or a buff for that.
k, otherwise it would be a little bit OP