Ohhh thats how i keep dying to stasis fields, propulsion inhibitors and various heavy weapons, because my measly 50 additional hull resist makes me invincible (i have a mk4 pol. coating as well, i still die to expert pilots as soon as i make just 1 mistake)
The deimos 2 is only invicible if you’re incapable of flying your ship, heck i crush most deimos 2 pilots in my fox-m, just utterly debuff the asshat when in overdrive and shotfun away with rapid-railguns
Ohhh thats how i keep dying to stasis fields, propulsion inhibitors and various heavy weapons, because my measly 50 additional hull resist makes me invincible (i have a mk4 pol. coating as well, i still die to expert pilots as soon as i make just 1 mistake)
The deimos 2 is only invicible if you’re incapable of flying your ship, heck i crush most deimos 2 pilots in my fox-m, just utterly debuff the asshat when in overdrive and shotfun away with rapid-railguns
This.
I love flying my Deimos 2 but it’s definitely not a front line fighter - more of a support / defensive type of ship.
What most people forget when calling something unbalanced or overpowered is that they keep bringing up numbers from the info-card which automatically makes their claims invalid. Those numbers only count when you put two ships in front of each other without any allies or enemies around and you start using abilities and firing on each other while remaining in static position.
Actual combat situation don’t look like that. Actual combat situation includes your enemies, your allies, movement and tactics - rules of engagement included - waiting for good moment to strike, cooperate with your wingman, run away when situation isn’t good for you, attack when your target is distracted or his buff is on cooldown or when he is focused on someone else, use map features to your advantage etc etc.
That’s why you are allowed and encouraged by the game to at least try flying all ships available - so you could figure out their advantages and disadvantages and use that knowledge in combat.
The Deimos 2 is a significant issue because it makes Frigates, as a class of ship, pointless.
If you want the tank and firepower of a frigate, with the speed and difficulty of being hit that comes with a fighter - Fly a Deimos 2.
In a situation where a Frigate is being attacked by a Deimos 2, it’s the equivalent of being attacked by a Frigate that has more firepower, speed and maneuverability.
Frankly, I’m amazed that people think you should be using ‘hit and run’ attacks on a fighter. Or that you need to ‘gang up’ on it. It’s a fighter, not a frigate.
Are you people so blind to the issue that you absolutely refuse to see just how strong the Deimos 2 really is? It outshines everything else in Tier 2 in survivability and effective firepower. The top corporations are flying entire squads of Deimos 2’s, more and more I am seeing Deimos 2’s in every match. When matches are 5-6 Deimos 2’s vs 5-6 Deimos 2’s will you finally concede that it’s OP? Is that what we seriously have to wait for?
If the deimos-2 would be in any way op, id fear it when i see it, so far i prefer to run away from a well played dagger
The Deimos 2 is a significant issue because it makes Frigates, as a class of ship, pointless.
If you want the tank and firepower of a frigate, with the speed and difficulty of being hit that comes with a fighter - Fly a Deimos 2.
In a situation where a Frigate is being attacked by a Deimos 2, it’s the equivalent of being attacked by a Frigate that has more firepower, speed and maneuverability.
Frankly, I’m amazed that people think you should be using ‘hit and run’ attacks on a fighter. Or that you need to ‘gang up’ on it. It’s a fighter, not a frigate.
Are you people so blind to the issue that you absolutely refuse to see just how strong the Deimos 2 really is? It outshines everything else in Tier 2 in survivability and effective firepower. The top corporations are flying entire squads of Deimos 2’s, more and more I am seeing Deimos 2’s in every match. When matches are 5-6 Deimos 2’s vs 5-6 Deimos 2’s will you finally concede that it’s OP? Is that what we seriously have to wait for?
^This.
Frigates suffer from role confusion right now, at least according to other threads. And when a ship as large and slow as a frigate can be out-tanked by a ship as small and fast as a fighter, even during overdrive, people are going to stop flying frigates. To make matters worse, the Deimos 2 is a command-role ship, meaning if it fits, say, a Mark III Valkyrie System, it boosts the damage of every ally around it within 12 kilometers. With the size of star Conflict maps, that’s everyone. A full team of Deimos 2 fighters would get the bonus of being a Deimos 2 (Legion Overdrive), the bonus from their own Command mods, and the bonuses from allies’ command mods. While I don’t object to teams giving each other bonuses, even fighters doing so, in this instance it’s an added capability to a ship that already has too many. Command roles on their own aren’t bad, but when an Overdriven Deimos 2 gets +16.4% damage, +28 to all armor resists, and +23 to all shield resists just from other Deimos 2’s it really does render frigates useless. The Deimos 2 even has a much longer effective range with its command mods than a frigate’s support mods have due to the range bonus. It tanks like a frigate, damages like a frigate, moves like a fighter, and buffs like a frigate.
Jericho an raise its shield resist permanently. Overdrive is 1/4 of the time.
Faction legion shield boosts damage.
Federation cloak enables fighters to survive. Deimos 2 are fighting until they die. They have no speed to get out of a disadvantageous fight.
Deimos 2 is a great tool for aggressive pilots. It’s certainly the best ship for heavy dps and survivability. Hence it is played by a lot of very good players. Maybe that’s the problem.
Have you ever met YUDJIN in his warden dwarf ? When I do, I can’t do anything and I tend to think that this ship is overpowered. But no, it’s in his hands that it becomes a lethal tool.
So, as always in multiplayer games : if you think a ship is OP, play it. Most of the time when I do so I change my mind. I tried to play empire fighters fr two months and I found them useless. But I tried and tried again, and after a lot of practice i finally got the hang of it and now I often make deadly assaults with it.
A while back I found Jericho frigates deadly. But I tred them for a few weeks, and I don’t find them OP anymore.
I could say the same for a lot of ships. And I could find examples in other games (war thunder, world of tanks, counter strike, etc.)
I’m not saying “learn to play”. I’m saying that Deimos 2 has great possibilities in hand of very good players. And so has every ship. The difference is that Deimos 2 is a melee fighter and command ship.
Jericho an raise its shield resist permanently. Overdrive is 1/4 of the time.
Faction legion shield boosts damage.
Federation cloak enables fighters to survive. Deimos 2 are fighting until they die. They have no speed to get out of a disadvantageous fight.
Deimos 2 is a great tool for aggressive pilots. It’s certainly the best ship for heavy dps and survivability. Hence it is played by a lot of very good players. Maybe that’s the problem.
Have you ever met YUDJIN in his warden dwarf ? When I do, I can’t do anything and I tend to think that this ship is overpowered. But no, it’s in his hands that it becomes a lethal tool.
So, as always in multiplayer games : if you think a ship is OP, play it. Most of the time when I do so I change my mind. I tried to play empire fighters fr two months and I found them useless. But I tried and tried again, and after a lot of practice i finally got the hang of it and now I often make deadly assaults with it.
A while back I found Jericho frigates deadly. But I tred them for a few weeks, and I don’t find them OP anymore.
I could say the same for a lot of ships. And I could find examples in other games (war thunder, world of tanks, counter strike, etc.)
I’m not saying “learn to play”. I’m saying that Deimos 2 has great possibilities in hand of very good players. And so has every ship. The difference is that Deimos 2 is a melee fighter and command ship.
That’s a perfectly reasonable thing to tell someone to do. I, too, hated the Jericho frigate special until I played with it and realized how impossible it generally is to hit a skilled target. It also taught me how to dodge that same attack. But I’ve played with the Deimos 2 and found that it’s extremely rare that a ship is capable of killing me while I’m in Overdrive, even if I’ve made huge tactical mistakes during the fight (e.g. flying at a frigate from the front. At range.) I don’t actually like playing Empire, I’m fond of the Federation frigate’s up-close-and-personal brawling firepower and its ability to keep its teammates alive with repair and support. But in most of the T2 fights that I’ve been in lately, the team with the most Empire fighters has consistently won. As the earlier post stated, we’re already seeing teams of Deimos 2’s dominating everything from Arcade PVP to Scenarios. Yesterday, I was on a team for a Scenario that consisted of three people who brought only Deimos 2’s and me, with my Alligator Mk. II. The fact that so many people are using them for everything seems to point out a problem with game balancing, not a difference in play style.
To be more productive than just complaining, I was going to suggest changes to the special that would make me feel better about it, but for some reason I can’t log into the game right now, something about my Steam account information being incorrect. Once I can get to the information, I’ll probably edit this post.
The Deimos 2 is a significant issue because it makes Frigates, as a class of ship, pointless.
If you want the tank and firepower of a frigate, with the speed and difficulty of being hit that comes with a fighter - Fly a Deimos 2.
In a situation where a Frigate is being attacked by a Deimos 2, it’s the equivalent of being attacked by a Frigate that has more firepower, speed and maneuverability.
Frankly, I’m amazed that people think you should be using ‘hit and run’ attacks on a fighter. Or that you need to ‘gang up’ on it. It’s a fighter, not a frigate.
Are you people so blind to the issue that you absolutely refuse to see just how strong the Deimos 2 really is? It outshines everything else in Tier 2 in survivability and effective firepower. The top corporations are flying entire squads of Deimos 2’s, more and more I am seeing Deimos 2’s in every match. When matches are 5-6 Deimos 2’s vs 5-6 Deimos 2’s will you finally concede that it’s OP? Is that what we seriously have to wait for?
Isn’t that you who was arguing with me recently that Deimos 2 have base 9000 hull on 5/5 synergy level (which is bull…)? I can’t imagine why someone who was obviously never flying ship in question can cry “overpowered” so loud.
As to big number of people who fly Deimos 2 - they use it seeing the raw numbers and thinking it’s the strongest ship out there - but it’s similar to amount of people flying Desintegrator Frigates. There is only few people who make those ships really dangerous and good addition to the team - large majority of people (who take suggestions from “It’s OP” threads and chat conversations btw) tend to suck badly in those ships, completely disregarding their role in battle and in the process leading to their team utter failure.
Contrary to your beliefs I saw frequently squads of interceptors shredding teams of Deimos and Hydras to pieces.
P.S. Concerning “hit and run attacks” and “gang up” - that apply to all kind of ships. It’s called team tactics. And in any instance going 1v1 should be equal to risk of gambling.
You go Rambo = you’re dead. End of story.
Yeah, true.
I plead guilty. I often make squads with my frog teammates. And with an alligator and 3 fighter fighting together, we have a pretty good win ratio. The power of teamplay.
Yeah, true.
I plead guilty. I often make squads with my frog teammates. And with an alligator and 3 fighter fighting together, we have a pretty good win ratio. The power of teamplay.
The instance I’m referring to was a random matchup (I think, there isn’t really a way to tell other than corp tags whether people are a squad, and none of them had tags)
I’m talking about scenarios, which I thought typically had the best results with frigate teams. That might be because I was pretty new to the game when I tried a fighter in one and got shredded in the first round, so other ship classes may work fairly well. The thing I was pointing out in that post was more that people have gotten so confident in the ship’s abilities, they’re queuing with no other ships in their lineups.
I’m not trying to unbalance the game or nerf a ship to the point that it’s no longer useful. If a simple propulsion inhibitor will help with the problem, I’ll try it, but I have to point out that many of the counters that exist in tiers 3 and 4 aren’t in the market on T2, they have to be found in loot, and we all know how rare it is that a player finds a module that actually fits into their loadout.
If someone can tell me something that I, as a frigate, can do to counter Legion overdrive, I’ll try it in several matches and see how well it works. I’ll openly admit my… wrongness(?) if I find something I can do that makes them less devastating. I just have problems surviving the 17 seconds that the Diemos can remain in Overdrive.
The instance I’m referring to was a random matchup (I think, there isn’t really a way to tell other than corp tags whether people are a squad, and none of them had tags)
I’m talking about scenarios, which I thought typically had the best results with frigate teams. That might be because I was pretty new to the game when I tried a fighter in one and got shredded in the first round, so other ship classes may work fairly well. The thing I was pointing out in that post was more that people have gotten so confident in the ship’s abilities, they’re queuing with no other ships in their lineups.
I’m not trying to unbalance the game or nerf a ship to the point that it’s no longer useful. If a simple propulsion inhibitor will help with the problem, I’ll try it, but I have to point out that many of the counters that exist in tiers 3 and 4 aren’t in the market on T2, they have to be found in loot, and we all know how rare it is that a player finds a module that actually fits into their loadout.
If someone can tell me something that I, as a frigate, can do to counter Legion overdrive, I’ll try it in several matches and see how well it works. I’ll openly admit my… wrongness(?) if I find something I can do that makes them less devastating. I just have problems surviving the 17 seconds that the Diemos can remain in Overdrive.
Find a reliable wingman. Simple as that. No need for fancy loadouts. It’s called team play for a reason.
So the feeling I’m getting here, is that everyone who flies the Deimos 2 thinks it’s fine, and everyone who doesn’t has an issue with it.
Find a reliable wingman. Simple as that. No need for fancy loadouts. It’s called team play for a reason.
It feels strange to me that I should have to find a reliable wingman to survive an attack from a lone ship much smaller than I am, but I guess that’s teamplay. The problem I see with your solution is that the person flying the Deimos doesn’t have to use teamplay to kill me, while I have to use it to kill him?
Or you could just stick to a nearby frig or group of teammates and fight with them, a reasonable good player does not need a squaddie
This is absurd.
“You should have to rely on half your team to help you kill a single Deimos 2”. That is not balance. I’m flabbergasted at people who believe it is.
Why does the Deimos 2 get to be special?
Why does the Deimos 2 get to have the highest damage output of all the fighters?
Why does the Deimos 2 get to have the highest survivability of all the fighters?
Why does the Deimos 2 get to do everything a frigate does, but better - from speed, maneuverability, effective hitpoints, damage output to bloody command auras that T2 frigates don’t even have access to?
This ship is better at everything but being fast and doing crowd control.
You need to specifically change team composition and tactics to deal with a single Deimos 2, let alone 5 of them.
I have seen Deimos 2’s grab the EMP bomb, then just tank damage all the way to the becacon and arm it, because the 3 friendly ships pounding on it couldn’t kill it in the time it took to cross that gap and plant.
It is absurd.
Now that I can get into the game again, here are my suggestions for changes to the Overdrive special.
First off, make the descriptions of all Overdrive specials clearer. I have no idea what the game means by “boosts (stat) by 17 seconds”, so it’s difficult to determine what effect the special actually has. If anyone has percentages for the maneuverability buffs provided, I’d be happy to know them. Everyone should agree this won’t hurt anybody, it doesn’t actually change any of the ship’s stats.
Now to the argument-provoking stuff (Figures in BOLD are numbers that I’m not pitching as final, just inserted to give a general idea). All of these are suggestions, and if you see a reason why they’d be an awful idea, please, offer input:
For Legion Overdrive:
Remove the hull resistance bonus. It already gets speed and maneuverability bonuses to better dodge damage (though I’m not entirely sire how much, they seem to be fairly large) and it doesn’t need a resistance bonus to add to that. If the pilot wants to resist damage better, he can equip an Adaptive Armor Mk 1, which gives a 60 point bonus to all resists.
Add an overheating time modifier, perhaps "Weapons generate 66** % less heat per shot.". This should make pilots of these ships happy because they’ll be able to fire longer under Overdrive, and anyone who’s flown Overdrive knows that the 66% fire rate boost causes them to heat up very quickly. This actually _increases _an Overdrive ship’s ability to murder things quickly, giving it the ability to fire for three times as much damage per weapon volley** as a non-Overdrive ship.
Reduce duration to 8 seconds , reduce cooldown to 30 seconds to compensate. Mathematically, this allows the Deimos 2 to spend almost exactly the same percentage of the game in Overdrive, but he can’t stay in it for as long at once, making it more likely that he’ll have to plan an attack/escape route with some strategic merit. Since we’ve just increased the amount of damage a Deimos 2 can do while in Overdrive with the previous bonus, it stands to reason that we decrease its duration. Now, we’ve effectively done two things: we’ve actually increased the effectiveness of Legion Overdrive; and we reduce its usefulness as both an attack tactic and an escape tactic. It can be used during the fight, it can be used to get out of tight spots, and it can be used just before attacking for a massive boost to damage, but it can’t be used for all three one after the other anymore.
Add a fairly high per-second energy consumption to the special, enabling a ship that doesn’t want to deal with someone who’s in Overdrive to pull the enemy out of it by draining his power reserves. Also makes a combination of command modules and Overdrive significantly harder to sustain, but possible with good Synergy and minimal afterburner use.
For Warden Overdrive:
Remove the RoF bonus or reduce it dramatically. This one (in my suggestion) is purely defensive in nature.
Amplify the debuff-reducing effect: Not only is the ship cured of all its technology-inflicted ailments, it is immune to new ones for the duration of the special. Becomes an amazing escape skill, rendering the pilot immune to target painting, stasis fields, propulsion inhibitors, and all the things that regularly result in the death of a small ship.
Add a slightly higher passive energy consumption to this one and reduce the energy recharge bonus. Since he’s immune to all negative effects, this version of Overdrive won’t have the pilot pulled out of it by an enemy, but he must activate it when he has enough power to finance its duration. Again, forces some strategic thinking, or at least a forethought to capacitor in the ship’s passive and active slots. Also has the potential to force an interesting choice: Afterburner or debuff immunity?
Summary (for those who don’t like my long-as-hell posting):
Legion: No hull resist bonus, half duration and cooldown, weapons take longer to overheat, and consumes energy.
Warden: No offensive bonus, add immunity to new negative effects, consumes slightly more energy.
Both keep their maneuverability bonus to help make up for the fact that they are very slow for fighters. Each gains a new role that is potentially more effective than the previous one in the hands of an experienced pilot.
I also played with the idea of giving Legion Overdrive some command module effectiveness bonuses to make it more of a team ship, but the Deimos 2 is the only Legion faction ship with the Command role, all the others are Tacklers.
Thoughts on those?
Ok kids, at tier 1 everyone cries about the desintegrator and at tier2 there’s a lot of crying about overdrive.
In T3 my fully blue/purple stocked Prometheus Fire I can barely take out an enemy frigate on overdrive. It really depends on the situation, but well-geared late-tier frigates are an absolute nogo.
Stock up on resistances and my weapons will overheat before you die.
Agreed, a frigate facing an empire fighter has to give everything to stay alive. But so does the fighter. (It usually takes all my 4 skills, overdrive, 2 rockets and i need full health to survive, I call that balance)
And whats even more funny, a federation frigate is faster than my fighter with topspeed 296.
I really don#t get, why everyone postulates the idiotic notion, that you need to have two players to kill a frigate.
So in a 10vs10 you need 20vs10 to kill a full team of frigates, or what?
This game is far from any form of rock-paper-scissors and frankly a fighter in overdrive is the only fighter that’s even worth playing combat-wise, unless you want to be a low-dps buffmachine, which can’t even kill beacon protection drones.
The Fed fighters aren’t really meant for fighting power, their speed is a big advantage in domination/detonation missions.
@deggy2: i didn’t really read all of your suggestions in last post, however those usually never get implemented anyway. Specifically in a russian-built game where most of the english feedback gets ignored. Seeing the imbalance of passive effects on many ships throughout all tiers, the developers have a lot of work to do on the balancing side anyway.
I also played with the idea of giving Legion Overdrive some command module effectiveness bonuses to make it more of a team ship, but the Deimos 2 is the only Legion faction ship with the Command role
Well thats not true, the Phobos Aura is also a command ship and i prefer it over the Deimos 2. There’s lots of command ships in the other tiers, don’t know where you were looking 
Adaptive Armor Mk 1, which gives a 60 point bonus to all resists
Eerr what? The best I can equip in T2 is Composite Armor T2 MkIII which gives 18 to all resists.
TLDR: if an interceptors strength is speed, and a frigates strength is health, a fighters strength should be damage. Only empire fighters can fulfill that role, so buff all fighters damage-wise.
Why does the Deimos 2 get to have the highest damage output of all the fighters?
The Phobos Aura has the highest theoretical damage output, because he buffs the Valkyrie Command Modules effectiveness by another 30%.
Why does the Deimos 2 get to have the highest survivability of all the fighters?
Don’t know where you get that notion from, however its wrong. Speed is survivability. All empire fighters are highly vulnerable to critical hits due to their low shields. A good interceptor can take out every Empire fighter, because they fly like bricks and arent really faster than frigates.
Why does the Deimos 2 get to do everything a frigate does, but better - from speed, maneuverability, effective hitpoints, damage output to bloody command auras that T2 frigates don’t even have access to?
Deimos 2 - 11k health. Hydra 2 - 19k health. Dont know why you attack command auras, hooray we get +10% damage from a buff, wheres a frigate can get +100 shield regen (which reduces all dps against it by 100, which is probably way more than 10%). A frigates damage output is by default, without any skills 50% higher than that of any fighter. If a fighter can buff his damage by 66% for 17 seconds once a minute - do the math - your overall dps is still higher.
This ship is better at everything but being fast and doing crowd control.
Crowd control? How that?
I have seen Deimos 2’s grab the EMP bomb, then just tank damage all the way to the becacon and arm it, because the 3 friendly ships pounding on it couldn’t kill it in the time it took to cross that gap and plant.
Yeah I’ve totally done that too, however his survivability is not higher than a frigate doing the same. In T2 its a lot easier to pull such feats off, since a lot of the players don’t realize what’s going on. Try that in T3 with your fighter and you get stunned nonstop by those 3 interceptors following you. There is, however, a bug, which lets you activate overdrive while carrying the EMP without dropping it, which will eventually get fixed.
What i DO agree with all of you, is the scaling of skills throughout all tiers. Such as the desintegrator being powerful in T1, but completely useless in T4. Same goes for overdrive, which has reduced effectiveness in higher tiers.
I think the basic concept of a fighter not having the same capabilities of a frigate, with a bit extra, is completely lost on you.
We have ship tiers and classes to differentiate these things. The Deimos 2 breaks that, it’d be like a fighter that could do the role of an interceptor better than an interceptor. If the Deimos 2 needs to have the damage output and tank of a frigate - make it a frigate!
But don’t make it a fighter and then claim that frigate level firepower and survivability is somehow balanced for a smaller, faster ship in a lower weight class.