UnderGround Tournament: What's next?

Howdy folks, I am DisFireCo[PREY].

In case you didn’t know, I was the one operating the stream and commenting(poorly) on the scundert twitch channel. I also assisted the awesome XofJSA in planning and executing of the tournament.

I am writing this to let you know about some things that are being discussed behind the scenes. I would also like to invite you all to post what you would like to see in tournaments in this thread.

Here are a few…

  1. Split skill levels and balance matchups by hosting 2 seperate types of tournaments.

Casual and Competitive.

I define casual vs competitive as;

Casual - open to all, time based or high score based pve runs or races, looser rule sets.(any game type that may be popular and practical)

Competitive - It is understood that people will do anything to win and this is where it gets ugly. It is nearly impossible to enforce any kind of rule that is not inherently enforceable with in the game.I.E. Switching ships and allowing all tiers of modules, stealing team members, attempting to rig brackets. These are all things I have seen, thwarted or been duped by in my career hosting tournaments and competing. Rather than fight a lot of these things, they need to be embraced and make everyone equally aware that they exist and give them the knowledge and means to protect themselves. Also, design the tournament to minimize the impact of these factors. (Set rosters, random seeds, minimize pings and or alternate servers.

P.S. I think it might be cool to give both teams an observer cam as a “commander” role for a tourney.

Ramble aside, competitive = high entry requirements, big reward, you will get dirty.

  1. Run longer duration round robin leagues in a variety of game types.

  2. Create a weekly discussion/overview of past and future events.

P.S. I think it might be cool to give both teams an observer cam as a “commander” role for a tourney.

 

Ghosting. Not good.

 

Longer delay on streaming also better.

First of all, tournament was great, the stream was great, the commentating was good - for the most part, some matches could deserve a lot more commentating and some had better commentating, but the commentators voice and personalities were very likeable - we would like to hear more of them. And you also put this faster and more fluently than official SCon tournament team ever did, so kudos to that - you did a great job. And topping it with the rewards was even better, that was just great initiative and I applaud you for that, You did an amazing job and you deserve praise for it.

 

Now my suggestions regarding the rules:

  1. I would not force teams to stick to their squad setups. This involves too much work to check on the facts and it’s not really worth it. It’s what makes the game interesting. Switching tactics and adapting , it’s essential part of the game, actually. Even if you change your strategy in the last minute after you see what the enemy team is bringing, it doesn’t change much. Let everyone bring whatever they want, it is also working against them if they had to switch their predtermined plan in the last minute, they probably practiced for something else. 

 

Now regarding this, it would certainly make things very interesting by not being able to see the enemy composition at all before entering the game, but why bother? You can just watch the stream and observe their gameplay beforehand, they will very likely bring the same. It’s too much hassle, so I would acknowledge it as part of the game and that everyone has to deal with it, and adapt.

 

  1. Disconnects. Make clear rules on these. We had a disconnect on our team right at the beginning of the match, which was hard to explain to both the enemy team and the organisation (but we managed to, with some effort). Disconnect happened in the first minute, and before even the commentators noticed what is going on, the enemy team rushed the remaining 3 pilots on our side, knewing and seeing one of us DCed, because obviously they never do that and each game they were waiting at the spawn for us to come to them, but this time they come to us - of course, it was perfect situation with one pilot being either out of position or out of the game. So I called BS on this and demanded rematch, leaving organisators confused why are we demanding rematch after we lost 4 ships at the start. Well, the DC happened long before the enemy team attacked us, and it’s likely they noticed something is not right on our side and used the opportunity.

 

So, if this happens in the future, I suggest clear rules on it:

 

Allow rematches on DC only, if the DC happened before the team started losing.

Do not allow rematch if the team was obviously losing “and happend to have a DC”. 

 

Remember, we had a DC *before* any kind of fighting started. The enemy team started the fight *after* we had a DC. And since this was right at the begining of the game and we got tanked with 1 player inactive, it is legitemately void and deservers a rematch.

Also, I must point out that the commentators on stream were confused after that game, thinking that our oponents “agreed to a winner takes all rematch - in our favor”, because they tought we lost the first game, they kept talking about it that they “think” and are “pretty sure” that the other side won and this is a winner takes all game. Wtf? No, it was clearly 1:0 for us, and this was 2nd game take two. It’s not like we desperately needed that rematch, but it is a matter of principle - get your facts straight.

 

 For this, I advise that both teams are in direct contact with the streamer/commentator and are able to directly PM them right at the moment the DC starts, give it a 10 second grace period and not more. Anything that happens before those 10 seconds does not count; i.e. the battle started with one side losing a ship too early or falling to a surprise attack, now they suddenly call they have a DC; the window for reporting must be very small and immediate, or else it counts as too late. 

This is in favor for the winning team, if they are leading in points and happen to have a DC and still want a rematch in case their player cannot get back in time (i.e. power outage), it is recommended to restart, since you cannot call the game void anymore once it’s ended.

 

I hope these rules are clear enough and you consider them.

 

  1. Game modes. There are lots of possibilities to do this, and I have a few ideas, but we can talk about this next time, I woud like to polish out technical details first,

 

  1. Casual and pro league. It might not be a bad idea, several competitions have a standard of dividing competitors into different categories depending on their investment. For example, I personally compete in EMMA car audio competition where we have Entry, Experienced, Pro and Master leagues, which are based on the complexity of your setup and market value of the components installed since not everyone can afford top level components and setup, the rules make the competition fair, and everyone can compete in his own tier, it is quite similiar if you would compare T1-T5 in SC.

 

Now the only problem is how would you divide our community into “casual” and “pro”. At first I was thinking this might not work, but now I thought of a simpe solution: give rewards to winners of the pro league, and no rewards to casual, because it’s just casual and for fun and training ground for the real deal without too much pressure, but you can stream both. Also an entry ticked per team would not be a bad idea too, if real money is involved and you are sponsoring this tournament with a reward. A price of a few $ per team for entry for creating the winning pool is nothing compared to the work you guys are doing and how much important this is and makes the community more active, involved, and possible even a brighter future for the game as a sport and it’s active population. We would possibly increse interest in pro tournaments, and bring even more participant teams into it, opening possibilities for even bigger price pools, which rules bigger and bigger crowds every time. Most of us personalyl don’t really need that GS reward, but this is what keeps people and competition interesting, and how you succesfully promote such an event, increasing it’s popularity.

 

  1. Stream recordings. If certain teams want their matches specifically covered and have an absolute guarantee to see recordings of them, they either sign up, or, a better idea - pay a small bit extra for a “premium” coverage of recordings, with proper naming conventions and editing, for easy access and observation. I am asking this because I had big trouble finding our games on the twitch channel, and not all of the are there. Having this re-uploaded to youtube as a premium feature (which can also go to the reward pool), I would be very happy to support that. Also on the side note, I would request to streamer to use a little better camera angles on what’s happening if possible, sometimes it seemed they were looking at the wrong players and not everything was always in focus where it should be. Could use some more practice with that or find someone that might do a better job “recording”, while you do the commentating (and again, all comenators, including JP and Seph were a pleasure to lsiten to).

you do realize we have recordings

Not all of our games are on XofJSA Twitch and some are only partial, also I cannot navigate trough them there are no names of participants in the video descriptions. And I don’t want our recordings, I want the recordings from the observer/comentator.

I was helping with the tourney personally and giving commentary as well. But I know for a fact we could of done it even better then what we did. But that comes with experience and once we get more and more tourneys, the better we will be. 

 

Heck the current game doesn’t support a mode where the Host of a match is invisible for the match. Resulting in a REF being on one side acting as a slight nuisance. Neo knows this well and we both realized that the current game is not really “tourney” friendly. 

 

I have some suggestions to make it better but that’s longer then a post I would normally make. Leave that to Neo. Lol. 

 

Now regarding this, it would certainly make things very interesting by not being able to see the enemy composition at all before entering the game, but why bother? You can just watch the stream and observe their gameplay beforehand, they will very likely bring the same.

 

Still the one thing which was sometimes most confusing was the visible judge, observers would be great; personally - since you mentioned the name-hiding, which I suggested in the other thread - I don’t care about that feature, but real observers would be the best thing the devs could implement. Because we never had lobby starting issues, or people leaving last minute, but we did sometimes mistake the judge for (our) player. As did the enemy sometimes.

 

Also, the confusion about what was happening was pretty common for commentators / viewers on both tournaments. It was pretty common, that the thing ended up in believing that the wrong team won. Such mistakes happen, and are hard to avoid live, generally, and not just because the UI is somewhat confusing itself (The score is displayed for the original team you join in, allies and foes however switch on the guy you follow, and the name gets red, if you watch somebody from the enemy team.) I think everybody needed time to adjust to that, and even if you are completely aware of everything, it can still happen, that you confuse things. Sometimes even players do not know what happened. “You won.” - “Did I?”

I agree that this needs more “communication” between commentators and judges, and it’s not a big mistake, since that just happens in every live entertainment.

 

edit: Arr, JP you beat me to it! :stuck_out_tongue:

Not all of our games are on XofJSA Twitch and some are only partial, also I cannot navigate trough them there are no names of participants in the video descriptions. And I don’t want our recordings, I want the recordings from the observer/comentator.

We have those  :yes_yes:

  1. Run longer duration round robin leagues in a variety of game types.

 

This would be awesome. If people would have to theorycraft different game types, maybe with the same teams, maybe with the same ships, possibly with same loadouts. Then the 3 ship limit would make sense, you would be hard pressed to decide what you want to pack, you have to be prepared for Beacon Hunt as well as TDM.

But. Longer running is great if you have a community behind it. I think right now we don’t need a league, we only need a flashy tournament every couple of months.

Round robin is great, but it takes a LOT of time and preparation, so it is very hard to pull off is someone has to bail in the middle of the rounds. As much as it is exciting to watch the duels, this method in unfortunately the most time consuming and hardest to pull off.

Once I was granted access to obs account, all my recording of match are complete and that including all match in semi final and final. I probably have the best recorded quality out there since I am not using H264 codec but I am waiting after some answer to either edit the video or release them on unedited simply rendered on youtube.

 

And JP has a point there, as I was gaining experience with Twitch and obs account (the way it work) I had the feeling my streaming was going better I was able to listen to commentator and place the camera focus on what they were talking about. I am pretty sure as we will host more tournament the organization crew will get better and things will go smoothly but for a first I think it was awsome.

And we had a good system where 4 people GMs and other seasoned player created the match and a streamer was assigned to the match. It started to be shaky in the beginning, but then got smoother towards the end. 

 

To sum up.

On the client side there needs to be 

  1. Better observer support, OR built in for GMs so they can set up a match and observe it with out having to have a pyhiscal ship inside to Ref it. 

  2. Better Custom MM system. I hate how we have to close the room to change settings, server or the map, Etc. Its a dumb and illogical way to go about it. 

  3. Add a “Room Observer” so people in game can all look at the match themselves too in game. 

  4. Also devs should fix the bug to fill out the description from un-marking itself. And allow more lines of description. 

And we had a good system where 4 people GMs and other seasoned player created the match and a streamer was assigned to the match. It started to be shaky in the beginning, but then got smoother towards the end. 

 

To sum up.

On the client side there needs to be 

  1. Better observer support, OR built in for GMs so they can set up a match and observe it with out having to have a pyhiscal ship inside to Ref it. 

  2. Better Custom MM system. I hate how we have to close the room to change settings, server or the map, Etc. Its a dumb and illogical way to go about it. 

  3. Add a “Room Observer” so people in game can all look at the match themselves too in game. 

  4. Also devs should fix the bug to fill out the description from un-marking itself. And allow more lines of description. 

 

+1

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@Neo

DC you say?

I don’t think it’s worth to bring it up.

I don’t think it’s worth to bring it up.

 

Agreed, no need to bring unwanted drama to this topic, beside its off topic…

Agreed, no need to bring unwanted drama to this topic, beside its off topic…

But why?

 

I want to be able to do this(while reading):

popcorn-stephen-colbert.gif?w=960&h=721 Bill-Hader-Eating-Popcorn-Smiling-SNL.gi

But why?

 

Because it makes you look like an idiot. The tournament is done, this attempt to start a shitstorm is ridiculous, you guys are better than that :slight_smile:

Because it makes you look like an idiot.

 

  1. Disconnect happened in the first minute, and before even the commentators noticed what is going on, the enemy team rushed the remaining 3 pilots on our side, knewing and seeing one of us DCed, because obviously they never do that and each game they were waiting at the spawn for us to come to them, but this time they come to us - of course, it was perfect situation with one pilot being either out of position or out of the game. So I called BS on this and demanded rematch,

Because it makes you look like an idiot.