Here’s hoping we can get some Cinnamon flavouring when he shows up again.
Cinnamon flavouring
I like cinnamon rolls.
I already used it in my coffee. I am out. 
Bringing squad play out of PvP was an attempt by the devs and designers to cure an illness, that is :
the only people who want squads in regular PvP are veterans who want to farm new players
I would add: … do not like quick Fire Support, and hardly ever under no circumstance never spend money for the servers / devs / game designers / art people that really run this game. All the more so they insult people as stupid players, wallet warriors, and what not more …
The initial statements of JasanQuinn and other reactions above do not address this true and precise analysis, they did not give adaquate arguments (reasons) so fare, nor did they deliver reasonable suggestions for a solution to this disease (that came as far back as out of beta phase). I can see why they want squads back, though. It is fun and dedicated play for vet / pro players predominately!
Science has revealed that humans are social creatures, that naturally compete in groups not as individuals (see i.e. 4 houses concept in Harry Potter)
But what about new, inexperienced players or players who do not have that much time to become pro/vet??
As said:
I am approaching it by looking at and addressing the impact on the larger game, especially its community and end game
… so do I.
Out of my experience as a non-pro player, it is no fun to come up in fight to pro/veteran players who cannot manage their might from excessive play and/or power of their squads (w/ teamspeak) in a civilized way. If they can , they farm new players just for the fun, for stupid statistics or out of a mean spirit to show of might. They have a culture to have established with farm ships (mostly OV interceptors/fighters, OV guards).
I’ve seen players farming others even in open space just to get their statistics up! This is not real exiting gameplay, because everyone can see through this, because there is no real need to it in the first place. You get more out of PvP, PvE, PvAI - even new players get this quick. It only steals time from players to have to get back to open space to finally do their daylies, to get their monocrystals.
This illness would have to be addressed through game mechanics:
* more time to blow up a ship (maybe only disable it for a while),
* squads no more than … ( i.e. 3 ) players,
* squads get less credits (to balance their power from learned coordinated play / synergistic tailor fit ship assortments)
* spread of speed distribution through ship classes
* reward (synergy, credits, effectiveness also for ship roles or out of overall team gain)
I recommend changes that promote team play indirectly from the start, and gives more incentive to play not only for destruction but also disable, stun. This would let kills per game go down and requires team play naturally to succeed.
This is comparable to mafia or monopoles in society, they have to be restricted in power in a civilized community.
My experience is, it is not the destroyers that are OV alone, but the interceptors / gunships as well. As a new player you can be blown up in no time do not see from where and can not learn anything, because the pro or vet players only want their stupid effectiveness scores race or to have fun at the cost of others no matter what. I wand a fair chance, a platform to learn to play.
Is bringing squad play back to PvP any help? Let us see. My experience in a corporation is that pro / vet players hang out with pro / vet players, period! Others are stupid or anoying or just a burden. They have their place in the ranks of beta Star Conflict players, no one can reach their ranks. They protect their status and are conservative when it comes to changes or innovations like destroyers to break up encrusted rigid gameplay.
Veteran pro players need to farm new inexperienced players to farm, because they do not like to play Fire Support!
First, I found destroyers a good try to introduce more of a fair gameply through all tiers for all players. Eventually a vessel that would not become pray to an OV interceptor maxed out kill ship that would end you in split-seconds!
It leaves a bad mouth taste to only be farmed, like the devs analysed precisely. But now, a tiny interceptor still can finish your destroyer with an EM blade in seconds?? Are you serious? EM should only disable or deplete shields - but kill / blow up a destroyer? So any EM blade inty should never be allowed alone to finish an empire destroyer for example, not even a fregate and it should be harder for him to kill a gunship. Its role should be support and special roles etc. not go kill around!
I would say: squads - if they come back - should still have to earn even one kill of inexperienced players. That would be : time!! Look to nature, what it does take a real wolf pack to hunt down one single elk , it goes on and on … no split-second kills in series in nature!!!
This game is good balanced from interceptors to frigates, even the roles of ships are not badly implemented (but there are still few killer ships or tank ships etc. that are most effective to go for stupid statistic records) it would not be unreasonable to go up with time to kill ships in general , so squads would loose much of their potential to farm new players appeal!
P.S.
In OS (open space) now there are more and more frustrated vet / pro players in specially build secret project ships that want to farm new players (sometimes hidden around a cloud of aliens attacking you / weakening you) ==>> help is a bunch of duplicators! Spawn again at same place and do not react untill it becomes boring to them killing you out of a mean and senseless spirit! We do not want to be “Fire Support farm” for stingy, cheap, mean pro-players! No one goes farming ores in OP anyhow now, only the common grind for monocrystals, which can not be stolen after ship explosion by looting!
Okay, I have touched on some of this in a video I’m making, but I’ll reply here as well.
First of all, the “illness” you mention is entirely fictional - it’s an excuse invented by the Devs, just like claiming all migrants just want to come and claim benefits. Are there people who do this? Yes, absolutely. But that is not the majority.
Out of my experience as a non-pro player, it is no fun to come up in fight to pro/veteran players who cannot manage their might from excessive play and/or power of their squads (w/ teamspeak) in a civilized way. If they can , they farm new players just for the fun, for stupid statistics or out of a mean spirit to show of might.
Are they farming you? Or are they just playing the game. Go look at my video series - I made a new account and I’m playing up from scratch. You will see that even though I’m not using top end modules, in many games I am absolutely wiping the floor with my opponents. Why? Because I’m a better player. I’m not doing it to farm people, I’m not setting out to ruin people’s games, I’m just playing like everyone else.
I’ve seen players farming others even in open space just to get their statistics up! This is not real exiting gameplay, because everyone can see through this, because there is no real need to it in the first place. You get more out of PvP, PvE, PvAI - even new players get this quick. It only steals time from players to have to get back to open space to finally do their daylies, to get their monocrystals.
This illness would have to be addressed through game mechanics.
But that’s a problem with open space, not PvP. This game is primarily a PvP game, and so when people go into open space, they carry that PvP attitude with them.
My experience is, it is not the destroyers that are OV alone, but the interceptors / gunships as well. As a new player you can be blown up in no time do not see from where and can not learn anything, because the pro or vet players only want their stupid effectiveness scores or to have fun at the cost of others no matter what. I wand a fair chance.
Happens to vets as well. I’ve been jumped and gibbed numerous times by various weapons. Your issues stem from your lack of experience and skill, not from everything in the game being OP.
Is bringing squad play back to PvP any help? Let us see. My experience in a corporation is that pro / vet players hang out with pro / vet players, period! Others are stupid or anoying or just a burden. They have their place in the ranks of beta Star Conflict players, no one can reach their ranks. They protect their status and are conservative when it comes to changes or innovations like destroyers to break up encrusted rigid gameplay.
That’s because you have no experience with the game from when it was squad focused. There were Corps that existed solely to train people like you and help you learn how to play. Plenty of pilots were willing to train new recruits if they asked. Most Corps would take in people who were still rough around the edges and help refine them.
You likely joined this game during a time when the Devs were actively banning teamwork, so you never saw the positive sides to it.
Veteran pro players need to farm new inexperienced players to farm, because they do not like to play Fire Support!
No, Veterans need to farm inexperienced players because that’s the only way to get Archelon parts and Neodium. Also, this is a PvP game. We didn’t sign up to play the same PvE mode over and over.
First, I found destroyers a good try to introduce more of a fair gameply through all tiers for all players. Eventually a vessel that would not become pray to an interceptor maxed out kill ship that would end you in split-seconds!
It leaves a bad mouth taste to only be farmed, like the devs analysed precisely. But now, a tiny interceptor still can finish your destroyer with an EM blade in seconds?? Are you serious? EM should only disableor deplete shields - but kill / blow up a destroyer? So any EM blade inty should never be allowed alone to finish an empire destroyer for example, not even a fregate and it should be harder for him to kill a gunship. Its role should be support and special roles etc. not go kill around!
And you have no way to stop yourself being farmed. Your options are to either git gud on your own, or quit the game.
When I started playing T3, there was a third option - join a Corp. That’s how I learned how to survive, and trust me when I say that T3 was far more difficult in my day. It was absolutely savage, to the point where you pretty much had to be in a squad of experienced players and on Teamspeak or you were never going to get anything done. Yet under this far more brutal and unforgiving system, players did not quit the game in droves. In fact, it thrived.
I would say: squads - if they come back - should still have to earn even one kill of inexperienced players. That would be : time!! Look to nature, what it does take a real wolf pack to hunt down one single elk , it goes on and on … no split-second kills in series in nature!!!
We had that too. The problem was that the game turned into Frigate Conflict where nobody bothered with fighters and interceptors, except as part of a pre-planned kill team. The game was ultimately built around unkillable frigates.
This game is good balanced from interceptors to frigates, even the roles of ships are not badly implemented (but there are still few killer ships or tank ships etc. that are most effective to go for stupid statistic records) it would not be unreasonable to go up with time to kill ships in general , so squads would loose much of their potential to farm new players appeal!
But that would make you weaker as an individual. You would get less kills and have a less meaningful input to the match. Is that what you want? To be less important and to have less influence over the match?
You complain about ships being too powerful, but you can use those ships as well. Did it ever occur to you to come to one of us and ask how to fly covops?
In OS (open space) now there are more and more frustrated vet / pro players in specially build secret project ships that want to farm new players (sometimes hidden around a cloud of aliens attacking you / weakening you) ==>> help is a bunch of duplicators! Spawn again at same place and do not react untill it becomes boring to them killing you out of a mean and senseless spirit! We do not want to be “Fire Support farm” for stingy, cheap, mean pro-players! No one goes farming ores in OP anyhow now, only the common grind for monocrystals, which can not be stolen after ship explosion by looting!
This is an issue for another topic - this is about PvP, not Open Space.
I wanted to write something about me playing this game without working hands and still be able to play it effectively. Also I wanted to write some things like “you were then in crap corporation, cause in all corps I was in we had people designated to train new pilots”, but I will refrain from this. Also in last 4 months I met only one squad (from Deft) that was trying to kill me deliberately in open space.
However I have an idea. We already have separate game mode that almost no one plays, except maybe 3-4 squads (from Ninja, DESU and 2 mixed ones) which is netting about from 0 to 2 games per day. It’s called leagues. Considering we have a million accounts with few thousand players being online during the day that’s not much. Why not reconfigure Leagues to be “no squad rules here”. Make the battles up to 8v8, increase the league team size to let’s say 20. Add the remaining battle modes as well. If players want to be ranked - they should be in a league team as only league team will be ranked. If they just want to squad up - let them squad up and launch in the league queue. If league team wants to deploy a wing of 8 - no problem. MM will match it against biggest squads in queue. Let the single people that want to play against squads join the queue. There are more details to be ironed out and what I’m writing here should be considered a draft instead of finished thing, but I think we could design some good rules. Why we? Cause development team is already too busy with the normal PvP. If the leagues are supposed to be endgame content, I would say vets should draft the proposal rules.
I wanted to write something about me playing this game without working hands and still be able to play it effectively. Also I wanted to write some things like “you were then in crap corporation, cause in all corps I was in we had people designated to train new pilots”, but I will refrain from this. Also in last 4 months I met only one squad (from Deft) that was trying to kill me deliberately in open space.
However I have an idea. We already have separate game mode that almost no one plays, except maybe 3-4 squads (from Ninja, DESU and 2 mixed ones) which is netting about from 0 to 2 games per day. It’s called leagues. Considering we have a million accounts with few thousand players being online during the day that’s not much. Why not reconfigure Leagues to be “no squad rules here”. Make the battles up to 8v8, increase the league team size to let’s say 20. Add the remaining battle modes as well. If players want to be ranked - they should be in a league team as only league team will be ranked. If they just want to squad up - let them squad up and launch in the league queue. If league team wants to deploy a wing of 8 - no problem. MM will match it against biggest squads in queue. Let the single people that want to play against squads join the queue. There are more details to be ironed out and what I’m writing here should be considered a draft instead of finished thing, but I think we could design some good rules. Why we? Cause development team is already too busy with the normal PvP. If the leagues are supposed to be endgame content, I would say vets should draft the proposal rules.
This brings us back to why leagues are simply not a replacement for squadded PvP.
First off, PvP has no time restrictions. That’s a big draw.
Second, not everyone who wants to fly in squads wants to do so against elite opponents. What if I’m just playing with friends? What if I’m trying to train people up? What if I’m trying to test something and need feedback against “normal” players? What if I need resources from PvP victories?
Leagues are not a substitute for PvP. They are essentially dead content, and there isn’t anything that can or will be done to change that.
Endgame NEEDS squads. It’s not end game if there’s nothing dangerous up there - the whole farming argument doesn’t apply
And none of these designated “team modes” can replace PvP in that front because they all have ridiculous restrictions and limited time window
Endgame NEEDS squads. It’s not end game if there’s nothing dangerous up there - the whole farming argument doesn’t apply
That, and engame content needs to stop being added to Tier 3. If vets need to practice for leagues or sector conquest in T3 ships, they’ll practice in T3 PvP.
I am absolutely wiping the floor with my opponents. Why? Because I’m a better player. I’m not doing it to farm people, I’m not setting out to ruin people’s games, I’m just playing like everyone else.
But that’s a problem with open space, not PvP. This game is primarily a PvP game, and so when people go into open space, they carry that PvP attitude with them.
… so you admit ?
… so you admit ?
I admit to being better than you. You are basically arguing that “squads should be banned because people are better than me and I don’t like losing.” How is that in any way a valid reason to not allow people to play in squads?
I would say: squads - if they come back - should still have to earn even one kill of inexperienced players. That would be : time!! Look to nature, what it does take a real wolf pack to hunt down one single elk , it goes on and on … no split-second kills in series in nature!!!
We had that too. The problem was that the game turned into Frigate Conflict where nobody bothered with fighters and interceptors, except as part of a pre-planned kill team. The game was ultimately built around unkillable frigates.
You complain about ships being too powerful, but you can use those ships as well. Did it ever occur to you to come to one of us and ask how to fly covops?
#1 - this game PvP is build around OP split second kills - AND - there is still room for fine tune the time to kill of ships as of the state the game is in at the moment, especially if pro / vet players know what ships are precisely the most efficient, know the terrain, know the weaknesses of all ships … Tell me, what is the problem with hard to kill frigates anyway? if they are slower and get reward for support and have limited kill power themselves - like the interceptors can evade them but not kill them alone in split seconds …
#2 - fly covops? I have bad ping sometimes and bad fps all the time … so ?? This PvP game is too much destruction and aggression, what would support single OP gameplay and exponentially foster OP squad play in the first place! Where is room for wits, for fantasy for ingenuity of play… ??
I admit to being better than you. You are basically arguing that “squads should be banned because people are better than me and I don’t like losing.” How is that in any way a valid reason to not allow people to play in squads?
You go on and stone wall your case, but you still give no solution for the disease other than wipe it away! You being better than me is not the issue here! Please notice that I did reason differentiated.
“squads should be banned because people are better than me and I don’t like losing.” … is simply not what I was arguing and therefore is not object of discussion of “a valid reason to not allow people to play in squads”?
That’s because you have no experience with the game from when it was squad focused. There were Corps that existed solely to train people like you and help you learn how to play. Plenty of pilots were willing to train new recruits if they asked. Most Corps would take in people who were still rough around the edges and help refine them.
You likely joined this game during a time when the Devs were actively banning teamwork, so you never saw the positive sides to it.
No, Veterans need to farm inexperienced players because that’s the only way to get Archelon parts and Neodium. Also, this is a PvP game. We didn’t sign up to play the same PvE mode over and over.
No - I know the game form both perspectives, solo nooby and corp player.
You paint the ‘corps side’ of PvP only in the bright shiny colors. There is a darker side, too, that you know of but not give to foster your case. But we need solutions that would meet the needs of all, not just pro/vet players like yours. Lets us meet in the middle!
And – I do not have probs with vet/pro player!
I argue for a balance and restriction of powers. After that devs should - in my opinion as well - release the ‘wild’ squads beasts again. So in principle I am on your side.
#1 - this game PvP is build around OP split second kills - AND - there is still room for fine tune the time to kill of ships as of the state the game is in at the moment, especially if pro / vet players know what ships are precisely the most efficient, know the terrain, know the weaknesses of all ships … Tell me, what is the problem with hard to kill frigates anyway? if they are slower and get reward for support and have limited kill power themselves - like the interceptors can evade them but not kill them alone in split seconds …
#2 - fly covops? I have bad ping sometimes and bad fps all the time … so ?? This PvP game is too much destruction and aggression, what would support single OP gameplay and exponentially foster OP squad play in the first place! Where is room for wits, for fantasy for ingenuity of play… ??
The problem with hard to kill frigates is you go back to a time when Combat Recon was typically won with only 2-3 kills per side. When frigates become hard to kill, smart players form frigate balls and build their ships to maximise survivability, which leads to two blobs of unkillable ships firing at each other to no effect.
I’ve played under four or so iterations of this game now, and the current model makes for faster and more interesting play than FrigConflict ever did.
Also, what’s stopping you learning how to use terrain? Oh, I know - you have nobody to teach you how! That’s one of the reasons we need a return to squad focused play.
The “my hardware sucks” excuse doesn’t fly with me. Up until about 6 months ago I played this game on a PC that couldn’t even hit 30fps with all the settings on low. I still became a “vet”.
You go on and stone wall your case, but you still give no solution for the disease other than wipe it away! You being better than me is not the issue here! Please notice that I did reason differentiated.
“squads should be banned because people are better than me and I don’t like losing.” … is simply not what I was arguing and therefore is not object of discussion of “a valid reason to not allow people to play in squads”?
There is no solution. No matter what you do, there will always be people who grief. The solution is NOT to pretend that everyone who wants teamwork is a griefer. Putting squads back will at least allow players to team up to increase their survivability.
You baselessly accuse all vets of wanting to abuse team mechanics solely to farm new players and claim that is the only reason people want squads, despite having admitted in your opening statement you recognise people are social by their nature, which logically follows that people will want to form squads to play with friends. When I point out that even in solo only play you will still lose consistently to vets, you have no argument to come back with. You lose to people who are better than you because they are better than you, and that has no bearing on whether squad play is a problem or not.
No - I know the game form both perspectives, solo nooby and corp player.
You paint the ‘corps side’ of PvP only in the bright shiny colors. There is a darker side, too, that you know of but not give to foster your case. But we need solutions that would meet the needs of all, not just pro/vet players like yours. Lets us meet in the middle!
And – I do not have probs with vet/pro player!
I argue for a balance and restriction of powers. After that devs should - in my opinion as well - release the ‘wild’ squads beasts again. So in principle I am on your side.
I already stated it is impossible to ever fix the “dark side” of corp play.
What is this “middle” you speak of? Because it seems obvious to me the middle is to give us back squads and stop demonising everyone who wants squad play as a cancer. It’s not just the ESB killsquads that used squadding mechanics - less experienced corps, training flights and friends all used squadding as well. So, out of those three, only one group is a problem - why are the other three being punished as well? The middle, as you say, is to give everyone squads back and then see if it’s even possible to deal with the problem 1/4th.
You obviously do have a problem with vets - you claim they just want to ruin your fun because they’re all evil trolls.
You don’t argue balance - you resent your own lack of skill and want to punish people who are better than you, more organised, more willing to organise and more team-orientated than you are.
This brings us back to why leagues are simply not a replacement for squadded PvP.
First off, PvP has no time restrictions. That’s a big draw.
Second, not everyone who wants to fly in squads wants to do so against elite opponents. What if I’m just playing with friends? What if I’m trying to train people up? What if I’m trying to test something and need feedback against “normal” players? What if I need resources from PvP victories?
Leagues are not a substitute for PvP. They are essentially dead content, and there isn’t anything that can or will be done to change that.
Who said they are? I love your approach - " there isn’t anything that can or will be done to change that". Well, I can tell you that you have exactly the same influence about PvP for Ace/casual players. What I am proposing - to get this dead content as a testing ground as the public test servers weren’t activated in months.
As for training people - you can always fly with your wingman in PvP, or create custom battles. Unless you want to test your theory against unorganized guys with 4 people squad in T2. That would be a nonsense. Even now simple happy pilot that got his first R5 is facing against pairs of R7s with maximized ORANGE equipment. Try it. I did. I created account, got to r5 and then I was facing that. I am not a bad pilot (not very good either) but you simply cannot face against such opposition.
So I am for squads in higher tiers, but only pairs in R1-R8 (and they still need to be more balanced).
I already used it in my coffee. I am out.
Cinnamon? Are you sure it wasn’t curry??! xD
Back to topic:
+99999999999999999
@Avarshina.
Not so much ago (1 year, maybe) I was like you. A complete Ace, who thought that interceptors were OP because you “can’t hit them” (<- completely false) and knew nothing about positioning, moving tactics, ship passives and implants.
Star conflict is probably the most skill focused game I’ve ever played. You can have the most expensive premium ship with full Mk5 modules, but if you don’t know how to play you are still going to get obliterated even by t1 ships piloted by experienced players (see the adam west video where she kills t5 interceptors with a t2 one). It’s impossible to get killed in under 6 seconds (A fast and furious medal) if you move constantly and keep an eye on your surroundings.
Each ship has its own strength and weaknesses. You can’t think that with one role you can kill frigates as easily as you kill interceptors, and vice versa.
I had to learn these things the hard way, there was nobody to train me. I had to do things by trial and error, testing each module, each passive and implant.
This iteration of the game is probably the most balanced, except for Destroyers (that you even want to buff…).
A simple way to solve the OP-ness of destroyers is to add back squads. A coordinated team could be the right counter to their supremacy in PvP. A good destroyer player can annihilate any opponent, while keeping himself alive.
But I’m going completely off topic right now.
In my opinion, adding back squads would balance itself. People will start again to train other players, and create new good ones. If the developers still want to have a completely solo game mode, that’s fine. Here’s my solution. Remove vsAI (or Leagues, nobody plays them), and replace them with a mode called “Standard PvP”. Then rename the Skirmish we have now with “Solo PvP” or Freelancer mode or whatever. Standard PvP has up to 4 player squads, + solo players who want to learn/play against challenging players. The devs could do this for some time, check the statistic, do some polls, and decide to keep or remove the feature.
The restrictions on time are part of why leagues are dead, and if you’re making mode with no time constraints, with all the pvp modes, you may as well abandon the content and just put squads back to pvp instead.
Let me spend some words here.
Avarshina is the perfect example of what happened since squads are gone, I know well this: since he is in our corporation.
He joined us when we had still officers looking more for active players instead of already skilled ones. But after he joined we stopped doing Dreadnought fights where such people could still be helpful. We played a bit more leagues but only selecting pilots between our top ranks. Then “social play” in our corp is dead.
We were never being able to train this guy neither we felt it was important to show anymore good fits and “tactics” since we moved from: a “big number corp dedicated to dreadnoughts” to “just take already skilled pilots”.
Since pvp became more and more a “random arcade” place: that’s what happened. People stopped caring about showing others how to fly, the low level of skill and knowledge you can see in those days are the results.
The fact this game became more and more arcade is a precise strategy. Reintroducing squads would mean admitting that it was a bad idea to give the whole game this fate.
But population wise, and considering how sc fails in retain players: they should admit it was an error.
Yes, months ago the population was lower. But absolutely not 'cause there were squads… maybe it was the lack of good contents and the lack of proper knowledge about their own game dynamics by devs/publisher?
That’s why devs ignore threads like this, they won’t admit that this arcade solo thing is crappy. 'Cause they have a good money income, since nabs come, get rekt, then some of them spend huge amounts of money to get destros and higher tiers ships.
But the next steps (which are: being rekt again since ships can’t overcome skills (tnx god for that), whining on the forums about how unkillable are ceptors or such, or just leaving giving bad reviews) are the reasons this behave will not last forever.
Instead of changin direction, they are pushing this forward: by removing even gamemodes (ctb, since you need more than one ship to effectively play it, somethings that nabs won’t learn). So we can keep asking for squads but: personally, I think it’s all in vain.