The difference is that tackler cloak is a F module, and no other F modules can be rendered useless
Alas… but if Chameleon is the problematic module here, should we be looking for ways to alter Chameleon, rather than change spy drones? Recons and covops are also more or less kept in check by spy drones.
no other F modules can be rendered useless
Jericho guided torp is rendered useless by AMS/IR Flares (though to be fair to the guided torp, it reloads quite fast). Diffusion shield is rendered useless by energy absorber/energy burning missiles. An explosive/splash weapon can take away both of an engy’s combat drones in an instant, and combat drones do take a while to respawn.
But then again, no other class gets as screwed as Tackler when its F module is disabled.
The difference is that tackler cloak is a F module, and no other F modules can be rendered useless
Ever hear of an ECM?
Ever hear of an ECM?
I didn’t mention ECM because that affects every class
I didn’t mention ECM because that affects every class
bubble guns/ missiles/ rockets/mines counters engineers drones (F)
AMS > jecho torp
ECM energy drain> commands
ECM weapon inhibitor/ion beam (kinda) > overdrive
ECM disables Recons warp during charge and actual warp
bubble guns/ missiles/ rockets/mines counters engineers drones (F)
AMS > jecho torp
ECM energy drain> commands
ECM weapon inhibitor/ion beam (kinda) > overdrive
ECM disables Recons warp during charge and actual warp
Flares Counter > Jericho Torpedos
But what people are failing to realise here is that, while those special modules can be countered (read cancelled/nullified) by those methods, the tackler’s special module can be completely prevented from being activated either for an entire minute (spy drones) or within a certain area (micro locator). The only other special module which can be compared is command’s diffusion shield which can be prevented by an energy drain, but even that isn’t for any more than about 10 seconds. All other special modules can at least be activated before they are rendered useless.
Argh… something should be done to make Chameleon work better ><
How about this: if a tackler tagged by spy drones attempts to cloak using Chameleon, it continues to show up on the enemy radar, but it cannot be locked on to (i.e. similar to how recon mode captains view enemies that are beyond the team’s sensor range) and tackler is physically invisible. Essentially, Chameleon somewhat interferes with the spy drones, and while enemy ships cannot detect the tackler, they can still track the spy drones.
kinda defeats half of drones purpose
not realy, the drone would still eat a single cloak atempt, which is more than enouph to get the tackler dead as his escape is removed, the cooldown on cloak is long, and they are not a prarticularly tanky or killy ship. And IIRC (though I could be wrong on this one) isnt the cooldown on drones faster than the cooldown on cloak, so a recon can still conpletely shut down cloak, simply by reaplying before the cooldown is over. And its still fully effective if you choose any other target for the masive debuff to healing (which is honestly the drones primary purpose).
But what people are failing to realise here is that, while those special modules can be countered (read cancelled/nullified) by those methods, the tackler’s special module can be completely prevented from being activated either for an entire minute (spy drones) or within a certain area (micro locator). The only other special module which can be compared is command’s diffusion shield which can be prevented by an energy drain, but even that isn’t for any more than about 10 seconds. All other special modules can at least be activated before they are rendered useless.
It should also be noted that with basicly all the other nullification abilities can be dealt with by killing the source. kill the guard and your torpeados go though, kill the parasite and your energy comes back, kill the tackler and you can once againt move at full speed, kill the microlactor and its effect ends. The only exceptions i can think of are ecm modules, which have short inital durations, and can be further reduced by modules/implants, and plasma web which will knock someone out of cloak due to damage (though even plasma web has a less odius duration). Drones however cant simply be killed off.
But the point of spy drones is to spy, isn’t it?
Anyway, how would spy drones affect recons, covops and LRFs? Would phase mod, adaptive camo and EM scattering shrug off spy drones as well?
Maybe apart from the change to spy drones, something can be done to buff the micro locator a bit to compensate.
no, the point of spy drones is to debuff healing, the spying bit is generaly just gravy. Especialy considering how easy it is to get a recons scaner range to be absolutly massive, the spying effect is rarely usefull (In my experence the primary good use is hiting the captain in combat recon so people with lrfs, combat drones, and/or the extended missile range implant can lock on from across the map, and even then the debuff is almost assuredidly the best part).
While i would personaly prefer a buff to chamelion, I just had a thought. If you changed spy drones to be an actual drone, by which i mean like the engineers “F” skill drone, it orbit the target at a very short range (and match speeds), and be imune to the targets weapons/modules. It would have very low health, thus one of the targets teamates could shoot it off, or fly near one of those ministar things and burn it off that way, or maybe knock it of by crashing into a few walls. The effect would be mostly unchanged, but it would then be a killable effect.
I like the speed buff while cloaked and the damage boost after uncloacking.
They fit nice in the ship. Most off my kills with the silent fox are that way, cloak, get on tail, decloak, usese all modules and kill the guy.
I’ve added the poll. I will expand it further this evening, it isn’t finished (have to go somewhere in the meanwhile).
If you cast votes now you can re-cast them later without a problem.
If you don’t like something / have suggestions, comment.
[http://forum.star-conflict.com/index.php?/topic/22021-suggestion-discussion-tacklers/?p=244344](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/22021-suggestion-discussion-tacklers/?p=244344)
EDIT:
Re-edited polls with ‘i don’t care option’.
Just to clarify: does the tackler bonus refer to the default reduced afterburner energy use, or the ship specific bonuses?
Just to clarify: does the tackler bonus refer to the default reduced afterburner energy use, or the ship specific bonuses?
Default stats. The only thing that relates with ship bonuses is the bonus rework options at the 3rd set of votes (Other stuff i thought about / collected from the discussion).
I’m now reading through the rest of the thread and updating the poll. Will try to make it to be the last change. If you see something missing let me know in the next few hours.
EDIT:
We are talking about tacklers and tweaks for them for the current game mechanics. Leave the tweaking for all other ships away.
The poll was altered / updated.
Please delete the old votes (unless they match what you want) and re-cast them.
Updated info:
Tackler special and active modules or other tweaks part 1
When you activate Chameleon to cloak your ship receives extra base speed while under the effect.
When your ship comes out of the Chameleon effect naturally or forced, you receive temporary extra damage bonus.
Overall increase in these stats, percentage based, depending on faction (feds more speed and agility, jeri more tank and agility).
If you think you want more separation in this line write a comment, but this option looks reasonable to me as not to leave either faction’s tackler out.
Self-explanatory. Eventually increased cooldowns.
Self-explanatory.
Self-explanatory.
Tackler special and active modules or other tweaks part 2
Every friendly missile launched AFTER the target painter affects the focused enemy ship will have extra rotation bonus. No extra speed. Damage is increased naturally by the resistance debuff. Be aware this can lead to missile spamming, so vote according to that as well.
Basically the Spy Drones will retain their full effect on the tackler, except that nothing can lock onto it. Same with Micro-locator. Plasma Web will remain as-is, it is not a detection module (just in case someone was wondering) - this applies to all counter mods.
Self-explanatory. Give the tacklers more role power.
If you don’t like the buffs to be global for tacklers, you might want bonuses reworked to give such buffs differently per different ships. Do not treat this option related to the above options, in case the devs also don’t want global effects like that for the Chameleon. Vote as a standalone option, still counts.
Other stuff i thought about / collected from the discussion
If you feel like the tacklers’ bonuses are not set right, vote yes. No or don’t care otherwise. DO NOT VOTE IF you didn’t learn all their bonuses and tried to understand them.
Related to part 1, options 7, 8 and 9 (‘Tackler special and active modules or other tweaks part 1’, ‘7 / 8 / 9. Increase survivability / agility / speed according to faction: YES / NO / I DON’T CARE’).
If you think a survivability buff would make them OP and should compensate with the others decreased.
7. If speed / agility is increased at point 1.7, decrease survivability (according to faction)
Same idea as above, but vice-versa.
Self-explanatory.
The tackler dreadnought sounds very interesting. :lol:
One golden rule, no normal module should nullfy a special hability.
So, a spy drone fking the chamaleon is OP, because it turns a tackler into something that is not a tackler. And those debufs he has only works if he isnt in a dogfight against an interceptor, because if he is all the intie has to do is to glue to the tackler and he be gone. Sincerely even i, being one of the worst interceptor pilots in existance kill 90% of all tacklers that try to kill me, and the other 10% kills me because they had help.
But again, it is a skill thing, i tend to kill a good amount of inties using my tacklers (in lower tiers, like T2), but since now every game mode in normal pvp favors interceptors usually the enemy team is made of 80% inties or more, so it is kinda hard to kill 1 of them since there are another 5 to shred you around.
I think the tackler is the only one that has its special hability completely neutered by a normal module. Even those of the gunship when hit by those ECM stuff it is only 2 sec and after the GS is free to move fast as hell. Well, i dont know too much, but i dont think it is right to neutralize a special hability with a simply fast CD hability.
I would propose increased effects on tackler modules and very long CD on spy drones and micro-locator along with lower duration. Or chamaleon becomes imune to micro locator and spy drone.
One golden rule, no normal module should nullfy a special hability.
ECM’s Energy Drain counters Phase Shield
Flares/Anti Missile guard mod counters Guided Torpedo
Spy Drone counters Chameleon
Combat Reboot “counters” Plasma Web (it nullifies it)
Ion Diffuser counters Micro Warp
Any missile counters Defense Drones
and more or less that’s it
Timed right reboot can block tachyon cocoon, and well timed missiles make using tachyon cocoon a death sentance.
Timed right reboot can block tachyon cocoon, and well timed missiles make using tachyon cocoon a death sentance.
A mine is a death sentence on tachyon cocoon, or metastable, whatever. If you’re in a recon with mines equiped, find that ECM and drop a mine while you can.
A mine is a death sentence on tachyon cocoon, or metastable, whatever. If you’re in a recon with mines equiped, find that ECM and drop a mine while you can.
You still have to time it right, because if you drop it to soon ECM under cocoon will absorb mine dmg. There is a small arming timer on prox mines.
One golden rule, no normal module should nullfy a special hability.
And where exactly is this rule goldened and by whom?
So, a spy drone fking the chamaleon is OP, because it turns a tackler into something that is not a tackler. And those debufs he has only works if he isnt in a dogfight against an interceptor, because if he is all the intie has to do is to glue to the tackler and he be gone. Sincerely even i, being one of the worst interceptor pilots in existance kill 90% of all tacklers that try to kill me, and the other 10% kills me because they had help.
But again, it is a skill thing, i tend to kill a good amount of inties using my tacklers (in lower tiers, like T2), but since now every game mode in normal pvp favors interceptors usually the enemy team is made of 80% inties or more, so it is kinda hard to kill 1 of them since there are another 5 to shred you around.
I think the tackler is the only one that has its special hability completely neutered by a normal module. Even those of the gunship when hit by those ECM stuff it is only 2 sec and after the GS is free to move fast as hell. Well, i dont know too much, but i dont think it is right to neutralize a special hability with a simply fast CD hability.
I would propose increased effects on tackler modules and very long CD on spy drones and micro-locator along with lower duration. Or chamaleon becomes imune to micro locator and spy drone.
Drones are 60 second duration and 30 second cool down, it is no longer a spamming module with huge duration to cover whole enemy team. With current timers on drones you have to think how to use it. If you simply drop it on a tackler that stays 3k away and de-buffing stuff:
a) if the tackler is a Ace to be completely get thrown out of battle by a single drone - you wasted a drone on a total Ace
b) if a tackler any good you wasted a drone because it is not gonna change much how he does it and what he does.
You can not simply spam drone on w/e you want, this is why there are so many efficiency whores recons with micro locator that just drop it on a beacon with no real benefits for his team, worst part they substitute drones for micro locators. Fact is amount of Recons per single game is much much less after all these nerfs, and even those that do fly hardly half of them do carry drones.
And another thing is that drones first of all reduce healing by 50% and that simple debuff overshadows simple invis prevention, and shall be used primarily as healing debuff on priority targets or a harrassment tool with combination on shield drain and proxy mines (or in a squad).
In reality Drones should be used on a tackler only when you are directly going for an assault on a Tackler (which most likely means that this tackler is way out of position anyway)
Many of changes that are in this thread are way out of this world and absolutely uncalled for. Problem on a tackler in T3 is not chameleon but rather complex of effects and balance states of different classes and passive modules and implants.
