Star Conflict OBT v. 0.9.0 Discussion

No offence Luckyo, but your posts come across as being so far up your own xxxx you eat your lunch twice. I wouldn’t trust anything you have to say about Tier 1 because you haven’t flown it since, what? 0.7 at best? 0.9 forced me back down there to finish off my Jericho ship tree, and I dipped in there to get easy completions on some of the more frustrating contracts. My analysis is based on first-hand experience, not bitter “I’m so much better than you because I fly Tier 4!” elitism.

 

Tier 1 is fast compared to other tiers, especially T3. In T1, kills come thick and fast; it’s pretty normal to see a third of the team blown apart in the initial clash, with several more crippled and forced to flee in the hope of finding a (competent) T2 Engi on their team or using personal hull heals to get back to fighting strength. The resulting flow of battle is dictated by the aftermath of that clash, with momentum shifting back and forth as dead players respawn and smash headlong into the wounded survivors of the previous wave.

 

Tier 3? 2-3 deaths a side at most. No cripples, since you can’t cripple people in T3 for more than a few seconds. The bulk of the team will stay together and stay intact, and thus casualties are low.

 

Tier 4 is technically the same as Tier 3 in this regard, save that the presence of T5 ships throws it out of whack and ups the body-counts noticeably. 

 

This is what I mean by “fast”. Not physical speed, but turnover. To use a historical context, T1 is a bunch of unarmoured infantrymen running around hurling javelins at one another. Tier 3 is two phalanx slowly shoving one another until one side collapses and is massacred.

 

Ironically, the lack of balance in T5 makes it closer to T2 than T3 / T4 is. Those hillariously OP Rank 13 implants allow you to have the same reckless “all in” style as you see in T2, and indeed they heavily reward individuals / groups who refrain from the traditional “camp in an engi ball until someone suicides out of boredom” tactics of old and hand out ungodly power to the people who get stuck in and rack up a kill-count.

I’m on T5s now. It’s very useful if you want to get into the “big leagues”, i.e. squad and teamplay centric top end gameplay that you won’t find in lower tiers. You will be competitive with mk2 gear - I know I am. The pay to win aspect of mk2 vs mk3 is really massively overrated in this regard.

Reading comprehension. I was talking about having only a single ship at your disposal which I understood you to suggest.

 

As for unlocking all T2 - that will be fast simply due to very low numbers needed for the unlocks. For comparison, I’m currently half way to armada R13>R14. That one takes over 500.000 loyalty. Next step takes over 600.000. So compared to that, four and five digit numbers needed for T1 and T2 are a pittance, doable in a very short time just by grinding the basic low cooldown contracts.

Guess we just have a different perception of short time.

It’s 570k loyalty for all level 6, and you start with a single 600 loyalty contract for a win available to you for each faction.

So take someone who plays 2 hours every night, every day of the week. That’s a lot. They’re basically making this their only game. During those 2 hours they can play 8 games if they play PVP, probably less than 4 if they play PVE. Let’s assume 50% wins for both PVP and PVE (it’s probably less for PVE with pubs…). It takes 4200 loyalty to reach level 2 with a single faction.

So our example person will take between 11 and 21 days to reach level 2 with every single faction.

At that point they get a second contract available to them every 45 minutes, which is typically about beacons in some way. They can only complete it in PVP, but not every PVP map has them. And destroying 6 drones protecting a beacon (wardens lvl2 contract) will take the average player several games with beacons. Capturing a beacon will probably take them even longer (the typical round has maybe 4 players getting captures on a team, if at all). So let’s say they manage a single one of those contracts every night, and that’s generous, so they get an additional 700 loyalty.

So they’ll take between 14 and 36 days to get level 3.

Or in other words, our example guy - who’s a serious player with 2 hours every night, every days of the week - took between 25 days and two months to unlock Tier 1 Mk. III.

I’ll spare us all the math for higher tiers but this is certainly not a “very short time” for a short attention span casual free 2 play player.

 

Tier 1 is fast compared to other tiers, especially T3. In T1, kills come thick and fast;

Yep, I agree, guns are worse but ships are also slower with less resists, so it’s just a huge shootout.

But it’s super rare to get a T1 only match. I’ve had a combat recon game tonight and our captain was playing his first battle ever. Luckily for him he didn’t know that most of the enemy ships coming for him were tier 3 or what that even meant. Luckily for us he listened to instructions, our team was good, the enemy team sucked and our captain survived to the end for hopefully a good first experience with this game (even though he didn’t get to do much), but still, first time players into T3 matches? lol…

I’ll just conclude the above tirade with a simple observation that imp. R14 implant is far more powerful than imp. R13 one, as in most organized play that is the implant that will keep you alive. Cooldown reset is pretty worthless if people smack you dead all the time because you’re so high up on their threat table. Something you would know if you actually played T5 instead of smurfing in T1 - being a good player means you’re the first one to die much of the time there, reducing offensive implant value significantly while increasing defensive implant value massively.

Frankly, your entire tirade brings some rather bad memories about smurfs/twinkers of WoW, most of which were the lowest of the low in PvP. And usually sucked so hard at actual gameplay, they had to go murder the poor newbies/ungeared people in low lvl PvP, yet usually talking a lot about max level PvP like experts for some reason. I still remember the flood of tears when blizzard restricted them to their own queue, segregated from the leveling players. It was glorious.

Looking at your stats, no offense, but you should stop smurfing and come up to T4/T5. That is, if you’re interested in actually learning how to play the game well, rather than scoring easy victories over people who have no means or skill to fight back because they’re new to the game.

Reading comprehension. I was talking about having only a single ship at your disposal which I understood you to suggest.

Technically two ship types, as trees don’t split into two subtypes (i.e. engineer and guard) until T4. But in general, I’m not disagreeing with this particular claim. If I gave a different idea, I must have mistyped something.

Guess we just have a different perception of short time.

It’s 570k loyalty for all level 6, and you start with a single 600 loyalty contract for a win available to you for each faction.

So take someone who plays 2 hours every night, every day of the week. That’s a lot. He’s basically making this his only game. During those 2 hours he can play 8 games if they play PVP, probably less than 4 if they play PVE. Let’s assume 50% wins for both PVP and PVE (it’s probably less for PVE with pubs…). It takes 4200 loyalty to reach level 2 with a single faction.

This is the problem with your math. On average, PvP games take about seven-eight minutes, whereas low level blackwood can be run in <6 min easily. Even T3 blackwood can be run in under six minutes, though that might take high level ships and effort. Matchmaking in low level play is very fast. That’s around 9 games of PvE and 7 of PvP every hour. PvE also has almost 100% win ratio if you go blackwood, as everyone and their grandmother knows how to finish it even in random queue. The biggest problem in there is actually people who turn on their auras and AFK the game - not because they make you fail but because they make the game last a few minutes longer.

Also you can complete more than just victory contract in both PvE and PvP, depending on the faction. Most beacon contracts, score contracts and other contracts that pop around R4 for some factions to R12 for others award points in PvE as well as PvP and some PvP contracts pop early (like the killing of 3 enemies with faction related gun type, or “kill random person” contract that are on 60 min CD). Of course, victory contract has a ~50% chance of failure in most cases for new players.

You essentially both underestimate the amount of games you can play as well as underestimate the amount of contracts you can complete in that time.

On the last note: blackwood part 1 with fighter using singularity is awesome. It’s like bowling in space. My record is 6 ships killed in a single ball :salute:

 

 

And on a final note, “casual player” is supposed to pay to progress. That’s how F2P games with “reduce grind for money” earn a lot of money. Here we have premium weapons and modules and license, which completely bypass the loyalty grind and significantly reduce the ship grind.

This is the problem with your math. On average, PvP games take about seven-eight minutes, whereas low level blackwood can be run in <6 min easily.

Sure, but if you check most players profiles you’ll see they have about twice the online time that they have time in battle. People chat, look at ships and mods to buy, etc. It’s all part of playtime but earns you nothing.

And low level players struggle to even complete blackwood, they typically fail at the second stage. They certainly won’t complete it in <6 minutes easily. I’m not even sure it’s possible to complete it in <6 minutes with tier 1 ships but if it is you’d certainly need a cookie-cutter squad to pull that off and not the LRF that our example guy might want to play instead.

Also you can complete more than just victory contract in both PvE and PvP, depending on the faction. Most beacon contracts, score contracts and other contracts that pop around R4 for some factions to R12 for others award points in PvE as well as PvP and some PvP contracts pop early (like the killing of 3 enemies with faction related gun type, or “kill random person” contract that are on 60 min CD). Of course, victory contract has a ~50% chance of failure in most cases for new players.

Remember I was talking about a new player working on level 3 loyalty. Getting those beacons in Blackwood captured by the NPCs to recapture them for your contract would be quite a feat. Haven’t seen it done. Certainly would throw your <6 minute estimate off.

One thing I had actually forgotten though is the 10k loyalty after the fifth login though which is a rather massive boost at low levels and would shorten the estimate considerably.

Sure, but if you check most players profiles you’ll see they have about twice the online time that they have time in battle. People chat, look at ships and mods to buy, etc. It’s all part of playtime but earns you nothing.

And low level players struggle to even complete blackwood, they typically fail at the second stage. They certainly won’t complete it in <6 minutes easily. I’m not even sure it’s possible to complete it in <6 minutes with tier 1 ships but if it is you’d certainly need a cookie-cutter squad to pull that off and not the LRF that our example guy might want to play instead.Remember I was talking about a new player working on level 3 loyalty. Getting those beacons in Blackwood captured by the NPCs to recapture them for your contract would be quite a feat. Haven’t seen it done. Certainly would throw your <6 minute estimate off.

One thing I had actually forgotten though is the 10k loyalty after the fifth login though which is a rather massive boost at low levels and would shorten the estimate considerably.

Same for me for online time. I like to talk to people and even afk.

 

Not sure about struggling players, I’ve done T3 version of blackwood a lot in the last few weeks during time windows when I couldn’t get a good enough squad rolling and ESB kill squads were the only thing in queue. Much of it was solo and I could count all times we failed it on fingers of one hand. Most of it was because we didn’t have an engineer AND some idiot would just dps the boss all the time causing two-three waves to spawn before previous one is killed in the last phase, overloading us with random laser/pulsar/railgun damage from trash ads.

 

As for beacons: if you want those contracts, you just do the part 1 of the missile turret mission, whatever it’s called. It’s longish (~12-15 min) but it lets you complete the beacon caps. AFAIK you cannot complete capture missions in blackwood as there is nothing to capture.

 

Also, don’t new players get a license nowadays? Back when I started, I got a week license, but I think it was shortened to a single day one?

so, are the devs back from vacation yet?

 

and can i get a patch?

What Tier is not from the game, may I ask?

 

 

Please, just because you play T5 doesn’t you fully know what is going on in every Tier, there are 3 or 4 Tiers which you don’t play in.

Every Tier has its own experience and its own problem.

 

And for God sake, every Tier should be fun, what do I play a game for if it is not fun, unless I’m some ego-maniac, maybe.

 

Ah, yes, where is the patch?

A fixed tiers, or at best ±1 rank would fix it, or they could even make T1/T2/T5 limited to their own tier, and T3/T4 vs each other since they barely are different from eachother.

The nearly T2/T3 ranks are ok.  I feel it should be R ±2, just to assume that ranking does not equal skill.  The major issue is match maker measuring skill.  When that is fixed, mixing tiers won’t be an issue.

 

Call me elitist all you want

I’m starting to want to.

 

Frankly, if you want to show off your “personal skill”, get a squad and fly bait role for it in

So I need a squad to show skill?  Is that how it works?  Most of the time, squads are more about DSR than wins.  Notable exceptions occur, but the point stands.  If I fly interceptor, my DSR might go down.  If I fly fighter, my DSR might go up.  I have more fun in an interceptor.  That said, bait role can be fun.

 

To be honest, they should just remove tiers entirely. Ships are already fully based on ranks, and premiums should just all be R3, R6, R9 and so on.

And I’m still of opinion that R10 and R15 can fight one another on fairly even ground. Yes, R13 and R14 imperial implants are very powerful, but they are not game breaking. I’ve flown gunships from R10 to R15, ECMs from R11 to currently R13 and so on after first leveling tacklers R12 to R15. As a result I met a lot of R13-R15 ships and squads while leveling gunships and I meet the same guys while leveling my ECM right now. Frankly, a far greater problem for me is flying the ship at very low synergy level (generally 1-3) where energy generation is so low that I tend to not be able to use active modules when situation requires me to. That gimps me far, FAR more than any rank difference ever would.

Tiers should be kept since there are notable differences in ability and customization.  As for T4 and T5, the implants and not the ships look to be the issue.  They may not be groundbreaking to you, but they offer a serious advantage to kill squads.

 

Sorry, but step down from your easy progression of yore high ground a bit and look at today’s reality of the game instead. To fully unlock T2 content you need hundreds of hours invested into this game, even with a license. That’s no beginner tier, not by any stretch of the imagination. If you last that long in this game you’re a core player.

 It will take me months to get there. So I can only show personal skill once I invested thousands of hours into this game? Sounds like the air is getting thin up there where you are… take a deep breath.

I’ll be serious here, it doesn’t take hundreds of hours of battle time.  I haven’t unlocked T2 Empire yet, or even finished T1, but I could probably do it in a couple weeks on my schedule of a few hours a day at most.  It’s ridiculous enough to make me not want to play it.  My “personal skill” depends on the ship, and not the game’s rating/synergy system.

 

Great. Free kill interceptors. Take them if they insist on offering themselves to you. You will rarely if ever see ints dumb enough to actually chase engineer that escaped into his spawn in T4 though.

I don’t always chase them, but when I do I’m not alone and they die.  I don’t play squads.

 

 That is one of two possible criteria for your complain. If you weren’t complaining about them cheating, then you were using the “they are too good to count” card. In which case I’m using the “you suck too much to count” card as mentioned in the post you quoted and the argument enters the stalemate.

YOU were the first to mention ESB cheating in this thread, no one else.  I know they’re good and trained to work together.  They die alone like anyone else, I’ve gotten kills on them when they weren’t in a squad and didn’t have to face a 4v1.  YOU mentioned cheating, not me.

 

I agree with you here. T1 and T2 are basics, T3 is advanced solo and beginner team play, T4/T5 is advanced teamplay and top level solo play. Unfortunately both T1 and T2 have a serious smurf infestation problem, mainly stemming from rather steep skill bump going from T2 to T3 (which will hopefully get evened out now that T5 is out and T4 will become more accepting to top T3 players). T4 and T5 should be reasonably competitive on team level, and well populated by people who prefer team play focused game over single player’s skill - i.e. the old top T3 players.

I’ve noticed “T4” players in T2 solo.  I truly wish the match making would send them to T4 in their T2 ships.  T4 will not become more accepting until T5 is limited to T5 and the T3 players get enough synergy.  The implants encourage kill streaks and not objectives.

 

Take a look at my profile. I’m at 11 days and 11 hours of time spent in battles. I’m R13 with armada, R12 with 3 factions, and R9 with other two. Most of this progress was made AFTER the huge (and mostly reverted) nerfs to loyalty gains. I’m already R15 with empire and federation and R13 with jericho.

At current speed, T2 full unlocks shouldn’t take nearly as long as you think. Synergy actually sped up progress for me when I don’t want all ships but just one from the tree + implants. That takes noticeably less time to progress with than the old massive point grind system. Of course, the old system is likely better for those that want all ships unlocked.

Notably, most of this was without a license. I have a total of 10 days of licensed time (started with 7, bought 3 for the extra synergy weekend after 0.9.0), during which I played maybe 30-40 hours total.There are plenty of people who are far above me in game’s hierarchy, so there’s a lot of carbon dioxide where I’m breathing, thank you very much. Most of them just don’t bother trying to talk to people on the other end of the game like I do, especially on the english forums (there are some that do talk on russian ones)

And again, your assessment of time needed to progress in the game is massively off, probably close to an order of magnitude. The first place in game where you can start playing seriously is at R7, and that shouldn’t take more then a day worth of game time or less, especially now that you can just pick one ship type and stick with it to the end for faster progression, rather than have to grind out the massive amount of reputation points needed for next level. The grind doesn’t really even start until R11 or so, even R10 is just a few hours of grind at worst.

I’ve noticed recently I can get six times the synergy in a command than a covert ops.  I also get more kills.  Does that mean I suck at covert ops, or I just have more fun?  Remember, it’s casual players who end up footing the bill.

 

Please Luckyo, create a new account and detail the hours it takes you to fully unlock T2 for every faction.  Who knows, maybe you’ll set a record.

 

Do I need to link reading comprehension wikipedia entry again, or will you note that I did not in fact talk about loyalty beyond T2 but ship gaining when talking about progress?

And btw, flying in R13 ships with mk2 gear is perfectly fine. Flying in R10s with 1/3 mk2 is also perfectly fine. Loyalty appears to be the main “grind it out or pay” mechanic in the game, and currently the difference between mk2 and mk3 is low enough for me not to call it pay to win in most cases.

I think I showed you reading comprehension yesterday. Synergy is the new grind.  Right now, I have almost 18m of credits, and nothing to spend them on but boosters.  Loyalty’s slow, but synergy’s slower.

No offence Luckyo, but your posts come across as being so far up your own xxxx you eat your lunch twice. I wouldn’t trust anything you have to say about Tier 1 because you haven’t flown it since, what? 0.7 at best? 0.9 forced me back down there to finish off my Jericho ship tree, and I dipped in there to get easy completions on some of the more frustrating contracts. My analysis is based on first-hand experience, not bitter “I’m so much better than you because I fly Tier 4!” elitism.

I’m encountering more “elitist” posts from Luckyo as time goes by. I’m still torn because occasionally he agrees with me and I agree with him. As far as “balancing for the top” goes, boosting an entire faction ignores the tier differences between factions.

Matchmaking in low level play is very fast. That’s around 9 games of PvE and 7 of PvP every hour. PvE also has almost 100% win ratio if you go blackwood, as everyone and their grandmother knows how to finish it even in random queue.

[…]

And on a final note, “casual player” is supposed to pay to progress. That’s how F2P games with “reduce grind for money” earn a lot of money. Here we have premium weapons and modules and license, which completely bypass the loyalty grind and significantly reduce the ship grind.

Blackwood normally gets to at least round three for me in T3, but we sometimes lose in round three. I just do random. On a side note, interceptors need a major buf in PvE because none of the missions are good without being able to tank. People still choose interceptors, maybe because of synergy.

A casual player should be able to progress. We’re still waiting on a premium fix. If the next patch doesn’t offer one, I see no reason to pay for one. It’s been mentioned repeatedly, I don’t want the devs to forget.

Sure, but if you check most players profiles you’ll see they have about twice the online time that they have time in battle. People chat, look at ships and mods to buy, etc. It’s all part of playtime but earns you nothing.

I alt-tab out of star conflict a lot, including right now. I have almost 18 days in game, but less than five and a half in battle.

can i get a patch?

 

On schedule. 

Reading comprehension. I was talking about having only a single ship at your disposal which I understood you to suggest.

 Guess we just have a different perception of short time.

It’s 570k loyalty for all level 6, and you start with a single 600 loyalty contract for a win available to you for each faction.

So take someone who plays 2 hours every night, every day of the week. That’s a lot. They’re basically making this their only game. During those 2 hours they can play 8 games if they play PVP, probably less than 4 if they play PVE. Let’s assume 50% wins for both PVP and PVE (it’s probably less for PVE with pubs…). It takes 4200 loyalty to reach level 2 with a single faction.

So our example person will take between 11 and 21 days to reach level 2 with every single faction.

At that point they get a second contract available to them every 45 minutes, which is typically about beacons in some way. They can only complete it in PVP, but not every PVP map has them. And destroying 6 drones protecting a beacon (wardens lvl2 contract) will take the average player several games with beacons. Capturing a beacon will probably take them even longer (the typical round has maybe 4 players getting captures on a team, if at all). So let’s say they manage a single one of those contracts every night, and that’s generous, so they get an additional 700 loyalty.

So they’ll take between 14 and 36 days to get level 3.

Or in other words, our example guy - who’s a serious player with 2 hours every night, every days of the week - took between 25 days and two months to unlock Tier 1 Mk. III.

I’ll spare us all the math for higher tiers but this is certainly not a “very short time” for a short attention span casual free 2 play player.

 Yep, I agree, guns are worse but ships are also slower with less resists, so it’s just a huge shootout.

But it’s super rare to get a T1 only match. I’ve had a combat recon game tonight and our captain was playing his first battle ever. Luckily for him he didn’t know that most of the enemy ships coming for him were tier 3 or what that even meant. Luckily for us he listened to instructions, our team was good, the enemy team sucked and our captain survived to the end for hopefully a good first experience with this game (even though he didn’t get to do much), but still, first time players into T3 matches? lol…

 

 You can not expect to access high ranks playing 2 hours a day for FREE (from your example) in darn short time, either game is designed to have zero progress and every one has an access to every or there is a clear progression for Free to play and for pay2Not grind

 

 As well you did not include loyalty drops into your equations

And why would a person that plays for 2 hours a day, afkeys for 1 hour expect to progress in that game anywhere at all???

On schedule. 

Welcome back!  I hope you had a great time guys, because kids here are flipping out

Someone reminds me of this meme: 

 

3odi8n.jpg

 

 

Can we stop the sarcasm, and go back to being constructive and productive please?

On schedule. 

That would be… 2 weeks ago. Still nothing. >.>

That would be… 2 weeks ago. Still nothing. >.>

I’m still bracing.

@Antibus : Do not forget to nerf the command’s buff module range as you did for engineers.

 You can not expect to access high ranks playing 2 hours a day for FREE (from your example) in darn short time, either game is designed to have zero progress and every one has an access to every or there is a clear progression for Free to play and for pay2Not grind

 

 As well you did not include loyalty drops into your equations

And why would a person that plays for 2 hours a day, afkeys for 1 hour expect to progress in that game anywhere at all???

I’m not expecting it as the game currently stands. So why would you expect a casual player - that we identified previously as the target audience - to play this game?

The argument erupted around Luckyo’s statement that T2 is a beginner tier and that you can reach T4/T5 in a “very short time” and it’s the only place where skilled and competitive play is possible. Why rushing a single ship/role to T4 will make you more skilled than playing all 9 roles in T2 was not discussed. Instead I pointed out that the majority of the game’s target audience (i.e. those with a job who do not play 24/7) will likely not progress in a “very short time”, in particular not if they try to unlock all content along the way. Instead they will spend a long time in T1-T3, if they even decide to stick around.

This game is based around monetizing progression. Your typical F2P player willing to drop money for progression has a job and only plays a few hours a day, if at all. And now you stand here, basically saying that they will never progress “anywhere at all in this game” like that. That’s not exactly a selling point, don’t you think?

End game is all fine and good, but money gets spent on the way there, not afterwards, and only if the goal of end game is achievable. That’s why tiers 1-3 must be the most carefully designed and balanced tiers in the game, not the other way around. Dismissing those tiers as irrelevant is the biggest mistake anyone could do.

 You can not expect to access high ranks playing 2 hours a day for FREE (from your example) in darn short time, either game is designed to have zero progress and every one has an access to every or there is a clear progression for Free to play and for pay2Not grind

 

 As well you did not include loyalty drops into your equations

And why would a person that plays for 2 hours a day, afkeys for 1 hour expect to progress in that game anywhere at all???

So in your mind, if I want to progress at all I should just quit my job and ignore my family?  Don’t expect me to pay for internet, let alone a license.

On schedule. 

Good to know:  :012j:

 

My whishlist: 

 

  1. Fix following weapons: Pulse Laser (isane overheat), RFB (needs about 10% more Dmg), Shrapnel ( -15% spread), Gauss Gun ( +10% dmg).

  2. Singularity Gun: Give us a Hitanimation, make it less effective vs Inties and fighters (slow barrels or scale Dmg. with HP): This is especially a problem in T4/T5 

  3. Reduce Synergy-grind by 25% 

  4. Solve Premium-Ship Issue. 

  5. Implement one more weapon for each shipclass. 

  6. Give us 2 Weapon Modifier.

 

(7). Answer following Question: Why is there no domination-mode in T4/T5?  :)wt