Star Conflict 1.5.0e (Discussion)

[xKostyan]

24 minutes ago, niripas said:

Don’t get me wrong - after some testing I have to agree with Kosty. It is an annoying gun - that’s true. However it has a very slow projectile - and due to the game engine you can actually hear it when launched and dodge. Base effect DPS is the same as phase suppressor. So let’s sum this up:

• against destroyers - it has the same DPS as Phase Suppressor

• against interceptors - slow projectiles makes it easy to dodge

• against fighters - empire fighters - yes, it is efficient if interceptor is not killed quickly, fed fighters - they can usually dodge

• against frigates - almost the same efficiency as phase suppressor, critical hit effect is annoying, though

 

It’s a sneaky gun, but can be countered. From posts on this forum I see there are pilots that already figured it how, so I will not spoil their advantage in that matter.

 

 

I don’t think it should be flat out nerfed, but I do think it needs some adjustments, I think it should offload some of it’s overall DPS to fire rate, reducing alfa dmg, as is it just scales too well with Orion + crits and IMHO way t comfortable to use, allowing you to realise whole Orion value with just couple of well-aimed shots, while if you use other guns you have to hit continuously for 4 seconds (except shrapnel), which again requers you to alin for 4 seconds and prep weapons for it, like Plasmagun/ RFB spread, or spin up SkraH etc.

 

Alternatively, it could be made into more prominent anti heavy weapon, with less projectile speed (Kinetic bonus on WakiR was really uncalled for) 

 

[5173541]

About this update: It’s okay. I am pleased with it. But there is other stuff that needs to be addressed, but still isn’t.

 

The Guard update:

You should add the Proximity Mortar - all 3 Guard weapons in this update, but you haven’t. This is wrong, in my opinion.

Same goes for the Mine Adapter module - 2 modules in total. If you’re so concerned about profit, at least make it available in the Store again until the sale expires.

 

As for the other stuff that’s still ignored - Secret Projects ships and Destroyers:

As usual, Secret Projects are completely neglected as you can’t equip (almost) any of the new modules on them.

Why the hell did I build all 9 Secret Projects when I can’t use (almost) any of the new modules? Make them Premiums if you have to if you’re so concerned about the profit!

Really, they are the most underused ships now. You’re only promoting content that needs GS. I hope this is not a sign of darker times. In any case…

 

About progression - loyalty vouchers:

Also, I am FORCED to play Rank 15 all the time if I want to complete a loyalty contract. Rank 14 or lesser won’t count.

And yes, having such a ship slotted won’t help me, because I need to use it!

You need to make sure that allowed Ranks are implemented instead. Rank 11-15 (hard/expert difficulty).

Current practice is counterproductive, not to mention the tons of resources that I had lost thanks to the cap limit.

 

About Destroyers:

What about Destroyers? Sirius has no special weapon that can be used, but Tyrant and Vigilant both have it.

We need a new EM weapon - some sort of EM zapper or something, based on Tesla technology.

Destroyers are still too weak now. Using one alone is a suicide, no matter the skill. Pirate Base Raid (Round 1) with Destroyer will most likely result in failure as well.

 

Other balance issues:

The Deconstructor weapon needs slightly higher spread and 33% less damage done to targets.

As for other weapons, like said in the EndeavSTEEL’s post, some other minor changes are needed to other weapons as well. Simple enough.

 

Bugs: The most annoying or relevant bugs that I reported, are still not fixed. Please, fix those six now. It’s been ages.

Bug ID: 0059889, 0071235, 0074557, 0076980, 0081267, 0081385.

[5173541]

1 hour ago, EndeavSTEEL said:

• against destroyers - it has the same DPS as Phase Suppressor

Phase Suppressor is not an explosive (kinetic) weapon. It’s a thermal weapon! Deconstructor is one!

 

Destroyers:

Native explosion damage vulnerability - all incoming explosion damage is doubled.

 

Add +50% bonus damage (1km or less) and you get an additional boost to damage. Destroyers are a toilet paper, nothing more!

[xXThunderFlameXx]

Phase Suppressor is an explosive weapon, 50m range but its one of those weapons which has the info and then its gone, it comes back, aaaand its gone!

[3522870]

28 minutes ago, xKostyan said:

I wonder what kind of nerf you think deconstructor deserves? 

 

4 minutes ago, xKostyan said:

I don’t think it should be flat out nerfed, but I do think it some needs adjustments

i did not mean removing all usability, only that it should be reduced in effectivity, does nerf not simply imply that?

short: i do agree, the alpha might be the problem.

 

however you cant simply move it to firerate 1:1, since that will make high firerate builds even stronger.

you know, percentage increases increase larger values even more.

 

1 minute ago, xKostyan said:

spin up SkraH etc.

to be honest skrah went from top to flop quite quick with that change.

i’d hate it too if it goes that far. i’d take the damage nerf instead if offered.

 

–

 

tell me tho, why even equip any other weapon on a covert ops now. shrapnel? rf blaster? why bother aiming for no damage!

the secondary damage would not even be necessary for it to be strong, but its a nice lol sometimes.

 

of course, some people are less versatile. range doesnt matter anyway with covops, well except the few i saw, who prefer to stand still using a horizon build.

its also a really strong weapon for a dogfight thanks to the proxy fuse.

you may happen to have energy denial, which not every role or even ecm has, since it uses energy as drawback. and okay, covops still die relatively fast compared, that didnt change much, and luckily the meta has enough other interesting stuff, like long range orelus arousal.

full kinetic builds and armadillos are cut  bombed through effortlessly.

and if you get close to a destro and activate some orions, holymoly.

i fly it, but its disgusting, however any other weapon makes you feel like a fool on covops.

 

 

1 minute ago, niripas said:

It’s a sneaky gun, but can be countered. From posts on this forum I see there are pilots that already figured it how, so I will not spoil their advantage in that matter.

phase suppressor? aha… okay…

whatever.

 

[xKostyan]

43 minutes ago, g4borg said:

 

i did not mean removing all usability, only that it should be reduced in effectivity, does nerf not simply imply that?

 

To many people imply different amounts of of different things by a simple word nerf ”) Plus we all know that the least you imply with developers (any developer), and more of hard written specs, the better 

 

47 minutes ago, g4borg said:

however you cant simply move it to firerate 1:1, since that will make high firerate builds even stronger.

 Yes, but for fire rate builds to kick in, you need about ~200+ base fire rate, even phaser with it’s 180 Fire rate is quite awkward to use vs light targets, even with 2x HSinks + Implant, While Plasma Gun with 2x Heat sinks + Implant is really comfortable.

So slight fire rate increase on deconstruct or, would reduce a comfort of using it, since right now if you do aimed shots once in a second or 2 while spending the inbetweens for dodging. Which would force you to be less dodgy during Orion, unless you are going full strafe. 

It may as well not be the the final solution, but i personally would have started from that (obviously adjust bonus dmg to fire rate as well)

 

55 minutes ago, g4borg said:

to be honest skrah went from top to flop quite quick with that change.

i’d hate it too if it goes that far. i’d take the damage nerf instead if offered.

Yeah, I still use it once in a while on 1-2 ECMs but that is about it - initial fire rate and overall firing cycle are just annoying to deal with.

 

56 minutes ago, g4borg said:

tell me tho, why even equip any other weapon on a covert ops now. shrapnel? rf blaster? why bother aiming for no damage!

the secondary damage would not even be necessary for it to be strong, but its a nice lol sometimes.

 

of course, some people are less versatile. range doesnt matter anyway with covops, well except the few i saw, who prefer to stand still using a horizon build.

its also a really strong weapon for a dogfight thanks to the proxy fuse.

you may happen to have energy denial, which not every role or even ecm has, since it uses energy as drawback. and okay, covops still die relatively fast compared, that didnt change much, and luckily the meta has enough other interesting stuff, like long range orelus arousal.

full kinetic builds and armadillos are cut  bombed through effortlessly.

and if you get close to a destro and activate some orions, holymoly.

i fly it, but its disgusting, however any other weapon makes you feel like a fool on covops.

And we don’t want to have another weapon like that, do we? I’d rather see other weapons tuned up, with slight fix to deconstructor, rather than deconstructor being brought down to the rest, which would basically return Covies back into xxxx pits. 

I did make a fun EagleB build with Pulses, to annoy Cutters/Konkistadors with deconstructors, fun for some time, but not really something to carry a game.

 

1 hour ago, g4borg said:

phase suppressor? aha… okay…

whatever.

 

Dunno what you are talking about, Phaser is actually pretty good, for being very specialized weapon, and it was one of the best weapons to screw up Thargas before all the nerfs it got. Well to be fair, deconstructor outperforms it with it’s raw dmg output, but as utility weapon vs specifics targets it is really good. Some spread reduction love I wouldn’t mind of course on it.

[37508612]

4 hours ago, xKostyan said:

I wonder what kind of nerf you think deconstructor deserves? 

The nerf that will NOT allow to a single Cov Ops with it to take out with few shots a destroyer, that sort of nerf !

[17324559]

2 hours ago, g4borg said:

 

i did not mean removing all usability, only that it should be reduced in effectivity, does nerf not simply imply that?

short: i do agree, the alpha might be the problem.

 

however you cant simply move it to firerate 1:1, since that will make high firerate builds even stronger.

you know, percentage increases increase larger values even more.

 

(…)

phase suppressor? aha… okay…

whatever.

 

Exactly. Phase suppressor is the gun if deconstructor had moved to faster fire rate at the same DPS. 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Phase suppressor has a hidden “explosive” attribute. Deconstructor does flat 1270 damage per shot if it will proc against destroyer (even inside the increased damage bubble), Phase Suppressor halves any healing destroyer will receive. So if you think Destructor Cannon is OP, why no one is shouting bloody mayhem about Phase Suppressor?

 

(PS - yes, I know that crit chance is 11% higher, but I did check it in custom - it makes absolutely no difference - crit procs are occurring almost at the same rate).

[3522870]

43 minutes ago, niripas said:

So if you think Destructor Cannon is OP, why no one is shouting bloody mayhem about Phase Suppressor?

i believe that in vitro this might be the case.

 

in vivo the phase suppressor wont have the same hitrate.

you are comparing an alpha weapon to a dps weapon, you for sure know there must be a difference…

lets assume the ideal pilot who can dish out a 100% hit ratio, which is already quite an assumption.

 

a dps weapon still always trades.

even if you use the weapon in a volley, so try to fly a curve or accelerated so all shots hit simultaniously, in an ambush situation, you would have to kill the target not to trade at all.

alpha weapons however can be used inbetween manouvering.

alpha weapons are also way more useful for focus, or hitting an enemy before he can retreat (punishing) or snipe.

 

these are some basics not unique to SC.

also cmon if you play a bit you will not be noticing a lot of phase suppressors killing you, but i bet you see those deconstructors.

and tbh. i think i do play covops quite a bit to notice a strong weapon.

[xXThunderFlameXx]

I guess noone is still going to talk about its energy consumption and how that can be used against it most of all.

[17324559]

1 hour ago, g4borg said:

i believe that in vitro this might be the case.

 

in vivo the phase suppressor wont have the same hitrate.

you are comparing an alpha weapon to a dps weapon, you for sure know there must be a difference…

lets assume the ideal pilot who can dish out a 100% hit ratio, which is already quite an assumption.

 

a dps weapon still always trades.

even if you use the weapon in a volley, so try to fly a curve or accelerated so all shots hit simultaniously, in an ambush situation, you would have to kill the target not to trade at all.

alpha weapons however can be used inbetween manouvering.

alpha weapons are also way more useful for focus, or hitting an enemy before he can retreat (punishing) or snipe.

 

these are some basics not unique to SC.

also cmon if you play a bit you will not be noticing a lot of phase suppressors killing you, but i bet you see those deconstructors.

and tbh. i think i do play covops quite a bit to notice a strong weapon.

“I believe” is the culprit here. I did test it. I verified it. Against destroyers there is not much difference. Against properly fitted guards - phase suppressor wins. Of course if the ship has low HP number and is improperly fitted - thermal resists are by default higher than kinetic on hull. 

Also - I was never shot down in my Taikin by Deconstructor Cannon (my Taikin has 2245 hull, so it should be taken down by at most 2 shots, right?) even fighting against high-crit Cutter. And you know that I am a crappy intie pilot. So - please stop with theory, take a friend, go to custom and develop counter for this. It is possible to actually turn strength of this weapon into it’s weakness. 

 

Regarding the usefulness of this weapon - I agree with Kosty that it can have it’s damage diluted with higher RoF, crit proc effect scaled down accordingly. Don’t get me wrong - it is hard hitting weapon - hitting even harder than uncharged Gauss. But again - your statements regarding that Phase Suppressor is meh in comparison - would mean that it would effectively nerf the gun.

[3522870]

2 hours ago, niripas said:

“I believe” is the culprit here

i said i believe your test having the results, so i believe you, not “i believe in things”. would help if you read what you quote.

what i wrote also explains, why tests on guards and destros are not in my interest, and i dont really care if another weapon is slightly faster in killing a specific target

 

2 hours ago, niripas said:

and develop counter for this

its not about “oh welp that weapon is op i cant help myself please tell me the mystery master senpai of mysterical occult wisdom how to counter it”, its more general concern about balance.

i can counter it, by using it.

 

2 hours ago, niripas said:

So - please stop with theory

i am talking about ingame time, using the weapon, fighting against the weapon, comparing it to other weapons i usually use - and you talk about tests in custom

i did shoot down taikins. the secondary damage is extremely useful in that.

the taikin is also the most ideal ship to talk about escaping death anyway. you should reflect on that.

 

2 hours ago, niripas said:

I agree with Kosty that it can have it’s damage diluted with higher RoF, crit proc effect scaled down accordingly.

nice. so you agree with what kosty says, and i also agreed with that.

where is the problem then. all i did was ask whether data is still collected - since i think i am not the only one who has the feeling that weapon should be adjusted.

 

 

2 hours ago, xXThunderFlameXx said:

I guess noone is still going to talk about its energy consumption and how that can be used against it most of all.

6 hours ago, g4borg said:

you may happen to have energy denial, which not every role or even ecm has, since it uses energy as drawback.

 

i would but it is as far as weapons go usually inconsequential.

we have a few energy denial modules now on various classes, but that cannot be the only “counter” to a main weapon.

 

–

 

anyway,  i dont think anyone will complain about the front blaster buff, which reaches 4k dps.

i only whish the eagle had it instead…

 

[17324559]

24 minutes ago, g4borg said:

its not about “oh welp that weapon is op i cant help myself please tell me the mystery master senpai of mysterical occult wisdom how to counter it”, its more general concern about balance.

i can counter it, by using it.

 

i am talking about ingame time, using the weapon, fighting against the weapon, comparing it to other weapons i usually use - and you talk about tests in custom

i did shoot down taikins. the secondary damage is extremely useful in that.

the taikin is also the most ideal ship to talk about escaping death anyway. you should reflect on that.

 

When you’ll find out how to make this weapon almost harmless to you, you will look at this sentence at the top and laugh. Seriously. I gave you all hints in the previous posts - if I’ll write a line more, all readers will have “Ahaaaaa” moment and it will render this weapon useless against fast ships. And against slow ships - as I said before - there are better solutions. Which will impose buff on the weapon, not a proper adjustment. Also I was talking about all game modes, where the heck did you see I said I was testing it only in custom? 

 

Quote

nice. so you agree with what kosty says, and i also agreed with that.

where is the problem then. all i did was ask whether data is still collected - since i think i am not the only one who has the feeling that weapon should be adjusted.

 

There is no problem. Why do you think that? This weapons should be adjusted. I know that devs wanted to give coil mortar to all classes, but this weapon is  a little too hard hitting. Lowering DPS by lowering RoF or slowing projectile speed even more would do. As the current meta is fights against a mass of people that have no idea how to play the game - this weapon in the current state will produce unnecessary negative feelings.

[3487991]

57 minutes ago, niripas said:

useless against fast ships.

It’s extremly useful, thats what i primarily kill with it. Ceptors who are on the way to retreat. One alphacrit and hes gone.

Even when cloaked and “evading” it is very easy to still snipe him.

ALSO: What nobody mentioned, When in dogfighting range, then the piercing missile and deconstructor aim almost identical. So you can easily pull off an even massiver alpha.

57 minutes ago, niripas said:

 

When you’ll find out how to make this weapon almost harmless to you, you will look at this sentence at the top and laugh.

Are you implying that it’s narrow firing arc is what makes it weak?

So the weakness is that if he is stupid enough to let you get behind him and hes not turning to fight you?

 

Anyways, how arrogant are you of “not wanting to spoil” ppls advantage. You really believe that finding out something in this game is an act of genius and should be protected and hid away from "the plebs"

Such coolness. Kindergarten: Where did you get that toy? I found it in a place where you didnt look. Very clever. You really are the superior humanoid.

Just goes to show how good, you really think, you are, that you cant tell ppl your advantage just because otherwise you wouldn’t be special.

 

I agree that there should be powerful ceptor weapons that make playing the class worth it but through this weapon it all comes down to who shoots first and hits. So ppl ambush only and real interesiting ceptor fighting is still impossible due to getting sniped by a random ceptor being able to just ruin your day, just because you are fighting somebody more interesting.

[17324559]

53 minutes ago, Oregyen said:

Anyways, how arrogant are you of “not wanting to spoil” ppls advantage. You really believe that finding out something in this game is an act of genius and should be protected and hid away from "the plebs"

Why so nervous? If you haven’t notice for all those years, Star Conflict always had hidden things. I play this game exactly for that - finding shortcuts, optimizing methods of getting something. I find a pleasure in finding tactical solution to the battle plan (which unfortunately currently exist mostly in form of SCL and Dread battles  and maybe to some extend tournaments). Due to my disability I will never be able to compete on agility plane, so my solutions to battle plan always involve looking for alternatives. Also if you don’t remember I was supporting this community with all data I found during extended search and testing. Drop patterns, part acquiring even spending my own money to verify if DrDeath container drops have any issue (they had and it was fixed), heck even building Waz’got when it was introduced (Engineer Containers  ).  All this was not an “act of genius” it involved idea and verification. Sometimes it needed thousands of battles to verify (heck I did over 2 thousand runs of Fire Support with few people to do those nice diminishing drop rates graphs so others would know how to play it to get Brokk parts as fast as possible). I never got even “thank you” on this forum for that. Is that an arrogance?

As I said - no,  I don’t think that finding anything in this game is “an act of genius”. And exactly for that reason - I stopped sharing. Everyone can find those things.  I saw few people already utilizing what I found regarding this gun. So - others know. You don’t? Well - too bad. In few weeks it will be probably common knowledge and people will start to share builds. I am no intie pilot, so I’ll leave it to better qualified guys. 

PS. Almost all information required I posted on this forum. How much easier should I make it for you to not be an “elitist”? Share a build and make a video with commentary, pointers and a nice girl showing what to do? I don’t have time for that. 

[17324559]

10 hours ago, EndeavSTEEL said:

1: hahaha no, the Suppressor is Nothing close to that beast  

2-3: the weapon have some kind of proximity sensor a bit like proxi mortar so it’s harder to dodge it than i might look like

4: same as 1

It takes exactly the same amount of time to take down Patriarch with Crit built cutter with each of those weapons (and Patriarch doesn’t have a hull slot, so we are talking base kinetic resists (4.8% dmg reduction for kinetic hull damage and 25.9% dmg reduction for thermal hull damage). In boths tests phase shield was set accordingly to incoming damage type. 

[5020096]

2 hours ago, niripas said:

It takes exactly the same amount of time to take down Patriarch with Crit built cutter with each of those weapons (and Patriarch doesn’t have a hull slot, so we are talking base kinetic resists (4.8% dmg reduction for kinetic hull damage and 25.9% dmg reduction for thermal hull damage). In boths tests phase shield was set accordingly to incoming damage type. 

 

 

I fly with supressor long enough to not believe that. 

Main culprit is secondary effect here. With Supressor, you cut healing in half, so victim can’t outheal the damage done (of course not apply to Wazgots that even with 300 hp/s gun they still outheal 2k dps gun for whatever reason), that create the illusion that you kill target faster, because target do not replenish it’s health. With deconstructor you do flat damage directly to hull if victim do not have 9-3 implant. If your tests were with 9-3 implant and still kinetic weapon tears through shield in almost the same time as thermal, that would mean damage is too high seeing shield’s high kinetic resists. Without implant, secondary effect goes through no matter how high or low damage is.
Flat damage from secondary effect is what kills in this gun. We had this problem in the past (gravi lens) but devs stubbornly add new ones. If this gun has to be adjusted, I’ll change the secondary effect into DoT like Taitaq, so at least target would have some chance to survive more than 4 hits. Slower projectile is not a problem if you are close.

[17324559]

2 hours ago, Rob40468 said:

 

 

I fly with supressor long enough to not believe that. 

Main culprit is secondary effect here. With Supressor, you cut healing in half, so victim can’t outheal the damage done (of course not apply to Wazgots that even with 300 hp/s gun they still outheal 2k dps gun for whatever reason), that create the illusion that you kill target faster, because target do not replenish it’s health. With deconstructor you do flat damage directly to hull if victim do not have 9-3 implant. If your tests were with 9-3 implant and still kinetic weapon tears through shield in almost the same time as thermal, that would mean damage is too high seeing shield’s high kinetic resists. Without implant, secondary effect goes through no matter how high or low damage is.

Finally someone using his brain first instead of emotions. Implant 9-3 yes. Same speed going through shields - it depends on resists. In this test case you can see that deconstructor is going much slower through shields, but very fast through hull. Phase Suppressor - the opposite - faster through shields, but slower through hull. With healing on you can mitigate the whole incoming damage from deconstructor for 6 seconds then 75% for next 14 seconds (if covops wasn’t using Orion - in that case of course mitigation is much lower). We have a custom battle for checking that - no point in believe someone here just on his words ”)

Spoiler

Cutter vs Patriarch - Deconstructor:

 

Spoiler

Cutter vs Patriarch - Phase Suppressor:

 

Quote

Flat damage from secondary effect is what kills in this gun. We had this problem in the past (gravi lens) but devs stubbornly add new ones. If this gun has to be adjusted, I’ll change the secondary effect into DoT like Taitaq, so at least target would have some chance to survive more than 4 hits.

That’s why I agree that this gun needs adjustment. 

7 hours ago, Oregyen said:

It’s extremly useful, thats what i primarily kill with it. Ceptors who are on the way to retreat. One alphacrit and hes gone.

That’s why I said that - with the current meta where people tend to fly ships that are not fitted correctly this  gun seems OP and needs to be adjusted. I fully agreed with that - please read my posts. However my 2245 HP hull Taikin survived encounter with the Cutter twice in a row (heck, I won those dogfights) and I am crappy intie pilot. Cmon, you have to see that there is something more. 

 

[35814372]

From what i have seen no guard item or combo seems particularily broken… good job!

[xKostyan]

2 minutes ago, Flash0914 said:

From what i have seen no guard item or combo seems particularily broken… good job!

We just need a prem r10+ Fed guards for that :)))