Reward fairness

1078853 · February 7, 2014, 5:39pm

cross-posting from the 0.9.17 patch discussion thread where it got lost

Antibus, while you’ve been looking at the reward system, might as well do it right. Here are two battles I played this afternoon:

Battle 1:

Session ID: 4811769
Session Server: EU 1 (Netherlands)
Session Time: Thursday, 6. February 2014, 15:28:19 to 15:37:56 (Battle time: 09:07)
Session Type: PVP (Capture the beacons) at Thar. Iridium Strand
Session Size: 12v12
Session Result: Victory (All beacons captured)

Total Damage: 1.559.834 - Team: 56,21%
Total Heals: 410.282 - Team: 53,82%
Total Kills: 45 - Team: 60,00%

TEAM 1:
PLAYER SHIPS FLOWN K AD AB D Obj DAMAGE ALL % TEAM % MSL MSL% HEALS DT:COL DT:KIN DT:EMP DT:THR EFF EXP CREDITS
2dsxsniper Stiletto AE 3 3 0 0 0 49.117 3,15% 7,19% 8 100% 0 830 2.433 9.560 21.328 153 1.060 83.560
Dgek Anaconda-M,Prometheus X,Wolf-M,Kris AE 1 6 3 4 0 91.080 5,84% 13,34% 17 47% 11.449 4.260 20.675 23.389 41.553 417 6.379 222.052
filepcsaba Diamond Dwarf,Acid Hydra,Prometheus 0 5 0 4 0 48.530 3,11% 7,11% 3 67% 28.334 2.710 32.138 38.299 44.641 74 540 80.647
flindersticks Templar AE,Hawk-M,Silent Fox,Diamond Dwarf 4 2 0 4 0 33.544 2,15% 4,91% 3 67% 0 285 15.046 3.110 33.786 205 1.448 92.636
HoppeR Styx,Prometheus 1 5 0 1 0 30.237 1,94% 4,43% 7 29% 17.018 1.201 15.599 6.958 39.988 275 2.385 169.531
KimTan Katana S,Katana 1 3 5 2 0 38.934 2,50% 5,70% 13 62% 0 2.596 11.530 10.290 15.489 178 2.900 142.498
lordknight Kite,Styx,Cerberus,Katana S 1 8 3 3 0 65.105 4,17% 9,53% 22 27% 99.426 1.125 47.922 8.082 59.888 293 3.316 114.460
LOSNAR Prometheus X 5 5 0 0 0 102.805 6,59% 15,05% 12 67% 9.390 5.081 14.201 8.302 29.498 719 8.398 210.892
Nutter75 Templar AE,Kris AE,Katana AE 0 6 0 3 0 70.750 4,54% 10,36% 25 48% 0 262 25.078 17.164 23.270 179 1.284 98.189
Shale Phobos 2 0 0 1 0 37.821 2,42% 5,54% 10 20% 0 363 0 0 19.010 221 1.474 133.635
spryt Machete S,Templar AE,Stiletto,Alligator-M 0 6 0 3 0 33.020 2,12% 4,83% 19 26% 973 577 10.613 5.748 41.303 106 1.018 66.134
SzellZsoltHUN Anaconda-M,Anaconda 0 6 0 2 1 82.055 5,26% 12,01% 5 20% 22.862 5.385 0 4.094 77.573 608 4.344 134.783

TEAM 2:
PLAYER SHIPS FLOWN K AD AB D Obj DAMAGE ALL % TEAM % MSL MSL% HEALS DT:COL DT:KIN DT:EMP DT:THR EFF EXP CREDITS
Callback Prometheus X,Sai,Ricasso 4 7 0 3 1 108.605 6,96% 12,39% 17 65% 3.247 4.000 8.069 12.307 35.323 1.121 24.705 169.696
DanniDrama Dwarf 2,Cerberus 2 2 0 1 0 38.488 2,47% 4,39% 8 25% 1.502 199 2.519 750 15.707 257 5.253 122.166
kicsi Crus S 4 5 0 0 0 68.354 4,38% 7,80% 15 100% 11.824 4.818 21.203 25.655 18.245 409 5.591 107.136
Mardel Cerberus,Desert Eagle,Hawk-M 4 4 0 3 1 104.465 6,70% 11,91% 7 43% 0 840 8.871 17.468 30.736 873 25.570 200.041
Miragrok Styx 1 10 3 0 0 64.933 4,16% 7,41% 6 0% 142.202 682 31.430 22.424 39.746 492 9.053 166.338
Paips Templar,Alligator Mk II,Hydra 0 1 0 2 0 80 0,01% 0,01% 2 0% 25.081 4.792 21.213 2.962 24.721 20 2.502 54.082
Roguetrooperz Sigurdr,Reaper,Swift Mk 3 1 5 0 3 0 44.627 2,86% 5,09% 4 50% 8.185 284 17.405 43.548 23.673 214 8.161 158.865
Snib Ira Deus,Kite 7 11 0 1 1 182.858 11,72% 20,85% 23 104% 11.152 2.571 7.378 23.985 29.240 1.394 13.272 139.973
SW33T3R Katana S 0 0 0 0 0 0 0,00% 0,00% 0 0% 0 388 0 0 0 0 3.000 68.327
TaylorSwift Hawk-M 1 9 0 0 1 128.192 8,22% 14,62% 3 0% 0 2.249 8.142 1.269 22.074 814 19.587 184.614
UraGagarin Neutron,Lynx Mk II,Fox,Hydra 1 6 0 4 0 62.457 4,00% 7,12% 11 64% 9.380 3.106 4.401 19.815 41.488 320 5.039 52.382
weazel80 Katana S 2 12 1 1 1 73.778 4,73% 8,41% 9 78% 8.258 2.524 8.921 18.413 20.652 848 15.033 186.312

Battle 2:

Session ID: 4812944
Session Server: EU 2 (Netherlands)
Session Time: Thursday, 6. February 2014, 16:59:49 to 17:09:54 (Battle time: 09:36)
Session Type: PVP (Domination) at Abandoned outpost
Session Size: 9v9
Session Result: Victory (Max score earned)

Total Damage: 1.819.345 - Team: 51,44%
Total Heals: 309.858 - Team: 26,47%
Total Kills: 65 - Team: 49,23%

TEAM 1:
PLAYER SHIPS FLOWN K AD AB D Obj DAMAGE ALL % TEAM % MSL MSL% HEALS DT:COL DT:KIN DT:EMP DT:THR EFF EXP CREDITS
KSGrisha Katana 5 9 7 3 3 127.601 7,01% 14,44% 11 64% 9.953 2.720 6.436 13.378 59.588 1.988 4.956 82.674
Libertatis Silent Fox 4 5 0 4 4 70.759 3,89% 8,01% 3 67% 15.333 884 15.225 6.219 50.543 1.410 1.765 78.858
marlondegroot Dwarf 2 0 2 0 1 1 3.741 0,21% 0,42% 5 0% 0 254 1.816 125 9.509 337 375 53.621
MasterBlaster Sai 7 10 3 5 3 120.074 6,60% 13,59% 24 67% 7.399 2.064 8.681 14.707 43.124 1.732 19.427 195.282
REPLAY Templar AE,Lynx-M,Hydra 2 9 0 5 0 153.206 8,42% 17,34% 4 50% 0 541 9.896 14.196 54.608 641 1.615 51.361
Rhoard Templar AE 3 14 0 5 0 140.035 7,70% 15,85% 11 64% 0 258 43.181 9.192 95.160 770 2.709 73.544
Runtime Kris 3 11 0 2 4 64.633 3,55% 7,32% 13 77% 0 495 7.823 0 28.532 1.708 3.370 108.279
Setip Templar S,Steel Harpy 2 10 0 5 0 87.419 4,80% 9,90% 19 68% 3.424 2.155 6.889 4.205 144.218 555 1.323 55.830
Vitio Anaconda 7 11 4 2 4 115.932 6,37% 13,12% 6 0% 191.730 6.504 56.183 30.912 98.116 2.501 4.585 104.164

TEAM 2:
PLAYER SHIPS FLOWN K AD AB D Obj DAMAGE ALL % TEAM % MSL MSL% HEALS DT:COL DT:KIN DT:EMP DT:THR EFF EXP CREDITS
asmodey09 Katana 0 6 0 5 1 42.150 2,32% 4,50% 3 100% 2.217 1.583 20.865 42.077 21.235 511 3.219 69.748
Bepema Neuron,Sigurdr 3 8 0 1 1 87.573 4,81% 9,36% 5 20% 11.705 113 12.842 3.149 50.225 1.249 8.317 91.302
kvazar1111 Swift-M,Katana,Hydra 3 9 0 6 1 103.055 5,66% 11,01% 7 71% 0 4.340 22.301 4.840 46.213 990 4.879 58.089
Mesala Templar AE,Iron Harpy 1 8 0 2 0 93.566 5,14% 10,00% 3 33% 0 292 18.513 0 22.379 534 3.474 54.832
SaatDerGewalt Crusader 5 8 0 3 3 114.246 6,28% 12,21% 6 67% 6.866 0 50.335 32.393 34.895 1.784 5.939 96.745
Snib Kite 9 4 0 2 5 167.162 9,19% 17,86% 12 83% 0 1.664 3.602 1.756 26.011 3.880 13.674 108.885
StarCrusher Crus S,Anaconda 3 16 3 4 2 129.750 7,13% 13,86% 33 64% 61.231 4.089 56.518 37.234 82.919 1.793 6.808 96.809
tbilisi Diamond Dwarf,Katana AE,Templar AE 2 8 0 4 2 74.765 4,11% 7,99% 20 65% 0 9.401 20.455 8.997 23.480 1.124 4.208 80.612
Terminator112324 Neuron Zealot 6 15 0 6 2 123.677 6,80% 13,21% 9 67% 0 279 54.607 68.803 65.631 1.957 6.858 45.623

Compare my rewards in these battles. I earned roughly the same XP in both of them so it’s probably a comparable performance, and I fly rank 9 ships in both. My performance relative to my team is comparable, too, damage % is listed, and I received 31% of my team’s efficiency in the first one, 27% in the second one. However, in the first battle I earned a massive 30% more credits (despite being nearly 3 times less efficient if you go by the individual number).

Also looking at other guys, should all those who were afk/disconnected and contributed nothing really get that much (or anything at all) for it? AFK farming is quite the issue btw, there are a few of those in just about every battle.

Or compare the guy in the Neuron Zealot in my team in the second battle with the guy in the Dwarf 2 in the other team. Compare the credits they got to their performance. I realize some of these guys have a license while others don’t (I do not) but going by the low XP the Dwarf 2 guy received he didn’t have one either (whether someone does or not is unfortunately not logged).

Do the rewards make sense to you? Because personally I think they could use a lot of work.

PS: For completeness’ sake, reward fairness in PVE is not convincing either (this is from last patch):

Session ID: 4806957
Session Server: RU 3
Session Time: Thursday, 6. February 2014, 00:02:18 to 00:14:14 (Battle time: 11:55)
Session Type: PVE mission (Hard) at “Blackwood” Shipyard
Session Result: Victory (Mission complete)

PLAYER SHIPS FLOWN K AD AB D Obj DAMAGE ALL % TEAM % MSL MSL% HEALS DT:COL DT:KIN DT:EMP DT:THR EFF EXP CREDITS
cepion Archdragon 30 17 0 0 0 1.116.378 26,79% 26,79% 8 63% 3.137 2.734 10.952 9.695 28.576 690 7.120 310.178
sarikzar T-Rex 18 19 0 0 0 351.945 8,45% 8,45% 45 58% 17.236 225 30.716 12.769 46.232 350 10.997 530.172
Sin61 T-Rex 15 20 54 0 0 822.269 19,73% 19,73% 2 0% 293.477 1.830 42.136 4.003 204.414 791 7.290 329.719
Snib T-Rex Mk II 87 36 0 0 0 1.876.642 45,03% 45,03% 0 0% 77.474 13.869 99.546 1.131 153.809 1.993 7.486 348.189

PS2: Nearly forgot an old issue because I hadn’t played in that long: if you self-destruct a ship at the start of the battle and then fly another one you still get synergy for the one that only lived 1 second. I synergized all of my T2 and T3 ships like that back in the day so I shouldn’t complain but it remains a good example of the reward system not working like it should:

The Kite was instantly suicided yet earns 37% as much synergy as the Styx that I actually flew.

3140209 · February 7, 2014, 6:18pm

should wish it looked like that in combat log aswell… :beee:

9062150 · February 7, 2014, 6:36pm

Download his tool here: [http://forum.star-conflict.com/index.php?/topic/21314-snibs-star-conflict-log-analyzer/](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/21314-snibs-star-conflict-log-analyzer/)

And you will be able to see your logs aswell. But follow the instructions closely.

About the main topic, i fully agree with Snib when he says the rewards are completely messed up.

I mean, for example, i play 9 mins and 50 sec with a certain ship, and get loads of kills, assists and etc… Then i die, and select a diferent ship, and spawn with it, and immediately after i spawn the game ends with victory.

Then i go check the syn received it is usually something like this:

Crusader----------------10.000 syn

SHIP I USED LAST------5.800 syn

I mean, i make a LOT OF THINGS with my first ship, kill a lot, assist a lot, capture a lot, and then the second ship which i just spawned on the battlefield gets more than half the syn of the ship that actually did things without doing anything but spawning.

Not to mention the credits variance. If i go with my brother in a Domination for example. We both have license and same DLC, and flying same rank ships.

I focus on killing the entire match, and score i dont know, 15 kills, and 10 assists. So my brother goes and capture 10 times the beacons.

At the end of the battle i get something like 1800 eff and he gets 3000+something he killed. And i still get loads more money than him, for example, i get 180k and he gets 140k.

15165684 · February 7, 2014, 10:00pm

The issue is, what if someone is a really bad player. What if they are just new, and they get next to no damage every round?

You get auto logged out for in activity. I don’t want the developers to spend a lot of time writing client side input pattern detection code. I want them to focus on the fun stuff! It is rare that I see a ship dead in space.

However it would make a little sense to get synergy for the time you are in a ship, rather than if you spawned in it once for 1 second. Down side is that would require a deal of additional programming that doesn’t appear to be in place.

Though what I mean is for the first 5 minutes you are in a ship you get 5000 synergy. It just caps at the 5000 for the sake of gaining synergy for time spent in a ship in battle. This would replace the current bulk synergy you receive for spawning with a ship the first time. Course the number 5000 is ambiguous, it would be different for different ships, ranks, license…

Yes I realize a downside is some people would play reserved for 5 minutes.

15165684 · February 7, 2014, 10:01pm

However I like how kills are apparently worth more then capturing a beacon. Though planting an EMP should be worth more then a kill…

Just think of which is easier in the game? Capturing a beacon or getting a kill.

1078853 · February 7, 2014, 11:05pm

Just think of which is easier in the game? Capturing a beacon or getting a kill.

A kill as far as I’m concerned. But think of which wins games - right, the beacon. Should be rewarded accordingly.

9062150 · February 7, 2014, 11:47pm

A kill as far as I’m concerned. But think of which wins games - right, the beacon. Should be rewarded accordingly.

Depends on who is the target and your skills, if you have low skill and the target is a UBBERLY skilled interceptor, than, the kill. If not the case, the beacon.

6820689 · February 8, 2014, 1:26am

Have you tried getting zero efficiency points, i.e. fly around as bait, and looking for a bare minimum amount of credits that you receive? I assume there’s a minimum and then a bonus.

1078853 · February 8, 2014, 2:05am

Have you tried getting zero efficiency points, i.e. fly around as bait, and looking for a bare minimum amount of credits that you receive? I assume there’s a minimum and then a bonus.

The Battle 1 log in the OP has a 0 efficiency guy.

1078853 · February 8, 2014, 2:39am

Have you tried getting zero efficiency points, i.e. fly around as bait, and looking for a bare minimum amount of credits that you receive? I assume there’s a minimum and then a bonus.

Here’s a fresh log with a 0 efficiency guy, has the advantage that atm everybody is licensed so that makes it more easily comparable:

TEAM 1:
PLAYER SHIPS FLOWN K AD AB D Obj DAMAGE ALL % TEAM % MSL MSL% HEALS DT:COL DT:KIN DT:EMP DT:THR EFF EXP CREDITS
Cabanov Steel Harpy 4 14 0 1 0 185,042 10.84% 19.25% 2 0% 3,424 717 4,055 0 48,984 1,520 10,429 64,819
DynamicPigeon Alligator Mk II,Templar S 8 19 0 5 0 111,053 6.50% 11.55% 21 5% 29,748 2,815 85,339 69,802 50,404 1,774 11,449 116,526
GabrielFrost0307 Swarm 4 7 15 8 1 46,258 2.71% 4.81% 24 50% 1,518 10,585 22,088 12,981 38,275 2,452 17,354 147,924
KozinakMonk Ricasso 7 17 0 7 0 142,533 8.35% 14.83% 24 88% 0 3,615 14,897 17,141 41,440 2,294 15,349 146,575
MORGOTHbalrog Hawk-M 1 12 0 9 1 61,186 3.58% 6.36% 9 44% 1,084 1,645 28,892 18,033 24,379 1,870 11,168 142,708
Murasaki Anaconda 6 23 13 2 0 118,460 6.94% 12.32% 8 0% 152,364 37 47,677 38,162 58,036 2,221 12,523 145,938
servak001 Dvergr Knight,Lynx Mk II 3 11 0 9 0 45,109 2.64% 4.69% 16 81% 6,536 32 27,877 23,206 43,474 1,417 7,393 64,299
Shoopah Kite 0 0 0 1 0 0 0.00% 0.00% 0 0% 0 0 0 0 9,022 0 0 106,761
Snib Ira Deus 17 26 2 0 0 251,700 14.74% 26.18% 40 115% 5,888 217 0 9,688 6,230 2,947 19,910 151,888

TEAM 2:
PLAYER SHIPS FLOWN K AD AB D Obj DAMAGE ALL % TEAM % MSL MSL% HEALS DT:COL DT:KIN DT:EMP DT:THR EFF EXP CREDITS
1020528499 Cerberus 5 7 0 3 0 107,937 6.32% 14.47% 6 33% 38,495 2,634 23,194 37,269 36,436 1,452 4,603 141,607
AM2566100 Sigurdr 11 14 0 5 0 149,302 8.74% 20.01% 45 53% 51,725 1,821 22,721 72,590 127,897 2,201 16,718 179,596
arnoldmanke Harpy,Ricasso 0 2 0 3 0 4,009 0.23% 0.54% 2 0% 0 70 7,907 4,210 29,041 163 648 76,254
clockeRU Templar,Machete S 5 8 9 7 0 32,732 1.92% 4.39% 14 64% 0 91 3,481 25,388 86,687 1,390 6,792 90,687
DefterAI Hawk-M 3 15 0 8 0 66,226 3.88% 8.88% 5 0% 0 8,533 5,511 9,127 44,731 1,720 6,541 144,687
Kasssya Cerberus,Deimos 2,Phobos 2 7 0 6 0 31,929 1.87% 4.28% 4 75% 6,647 517 1,941 21,957 112,780 957 4,486 111,001
Monster3 Diamond Dwarf 5 13 1 7 0 121,920 7.14% 16.34% 21 71% 4,089 369 6,242 13,613 49,560 1,671 8,208 118,474
Shelter Wolf-M,Anaconda 8 23 2 4 0 173,729 10.18% 23.29% 18 33% 164,211 867 15,147 15,869 94,864 2,844 15,996 171,082
TeLoVeK Silent Fox 3 10 0 7 0 58,187 3.41% 7.80% 10 50% 0 1,436 18,053 26,354 69,790 1,232 4,049 114,130

107k credits for doing nothing, that equals over 70% of the reward that I did get. Comparing some of the other results raises eyebrows, too.

6820689 · February 9, 2014, 1:44am

With the new damage efficiency, it may get really complicated. Synergy gains for kills are related to your rank and the rank of the ship you killed. Inside one of the spoilers here, [http://forum.star-conflict.com/index.php?/topic/21210-developer-blog-entry-from-september-3rd/](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/21210-developer-blog-entry-from-september-3rd/), it lists the synergy gained based on kills from your rank vs your opponents. Since that was a long time ago it may have been balanced, and since damaging influences synergy now it’ll become even more complicated.

I know there’s a token synergy for a loss and a token synergy from a win. At the same time, synergy gained in battle is higher than can be attributable to what is stated as possible. I’m now going on the assumption that credits are tied to synergy somehow. There are a lot of variables and only assumptions about how they work. We have damage dealt, kills, ranks of the kills, probably if it was focus fire or solo, objectives, and then how synergy’s divided when you fly more than one ship. For objectives you could be capped at involvement so there’s a difference between a solo beacon capture and a group beacon capture. We also don’t know what the soft caps are and how they vary by rank. Given the “odd results” maybe you’ll be lucky and just figure out a synergy to credits ratio. But credits could be tied in part to medals and achievements making it even more complicated.

Have you had any luck with the experience variable?

1078853 · February 9, 2014, 10:55am

I’m now going on the assumption that credits are tied to synergy somehow. There are a lot of variables and only assumptions about how they work.

Well, we do know that each team gets the same base amount of total credits, no matter if they won or lost, and then it’s supposed to be distributed within the team by performance and then multiplied by ship rank/type/license coefficients. It’s the performance part working correctly that I’m doubting on in this thread. Certainly the reward for doing nothing is too high.

Have you had any luck with the experience variable?

No, still didn’t spend any time on it. Think I’ll wait for you to figure it out.