Redefine the ECM class.

Suggestions Balance
#1

I’ve spent a long time thinking about this. I’ve written extensively on it, on this specific iteration of the problem and the issue as a whole in game design. I’ve seen it play out in game, on the forums, and across the entire gaming industry.

 

I say this for two reasons. One, so that you know that I’m not just spouting a bunch of bull. I’ve done research and I have considerable, albeit anecdotal, evidence to back me up. Two, so that you hear me out in full and so that you know that I’m encouraging civil discussion on the issue. ECMs are a very polarizing class in Star Conflict, and I don’t want this to devolve into another thread of hate speech versus ‘git gud’.

 

Let me start off with the main point. Everything else stems from it.

 

ECMs are not an interactive role.

 

If you don’t take anything else away from this thread, at the very least know that is my point.

 

The words “Electronic Countermeasures” actually offer a lot of room for creative interactivity, and especially so within the bounds of Star Conflict. System Hack is a prime example of how to do interactivity right on ECMs. It has a powerful but specific effect that forces both sides to make thoughtful considerations both in combat and when building their ships. “What if they hack this?” or “Does hacking this make this part of the build less effective?” are small but influential decisions that players must make. It can convert an entire build into something different, in the same way that players may run multiple multipurpose modules to counter Tackler slows, and how players have to choose from only four of eleven different Guard Modules, and that’s just in T3. If you see a Guard on the other team, it could be doing one of a dozen different kinds of things. What if it’s a highly defensive build with fewer heals and more team protection effects? What if it’s a Heavy Overlord, built exclusively for frontline rushes and solo play? How do you build your ship against each?

 

ECMs don’t offer these considerations. The most interactivity they had before System Hack was how many Proton Walls you could afford to fit on your ships, a modifier that protects you from a maximum of five different control effects, three of them ECM disables.

 

As a result, disables are the entire focus of the ECM role. Whether they’re balanced in this regard is perhaps the most heated debate the playerbase has. I’m here to tell you that it doesn’t matter. Both sides are wrong. Why? Because d** isabling players isn’t interactive and it isn’t fun. **If I’ve learned anything from both designing games on my own and from the hundreds of hours I’ve spent in just this specialty of the field alone, interactivity is the most important thing a game can have. If you have no way to interact with something, you aren’t enjoying it. This absolutely includes interacting with things that negatively affect you. Missile Shields are interactive. Micro Locators are interactive. Diffusion Shields are interactive. System Hack is interactive. They all require on-the-fly combat and pre-planning decisions, and most of the time are enjoyable to use and fight against. You feel like it’s an actual battle, because it’s not a one-way fight. With disables, it devolves into a game of solitaire, where one side is removing players from the battle completely. It’s the exact opposite of interactivity, and why many players hate being disabled rather than how they feel when their torps are stopped by Missile Shields, or when their Holoships are destroyed by Micro Locators. Your opponent interacted with you in the latter scenarios, and it feels more skillful on both sides, too.

 

Hopefully I’ve made my point with that. So allow me to offer some suggestions as to how to make the role more interactive. Please note that balance and design suggestions are not the same, and numbers can always be tweaked by the devs.

 

New Modules:

Camouflage Field - A stationary deployable object that passively removes all friendly ships from radar within its radius, in the same way that the Covert Ops’ Adaptive Camo works. As such, spy drones, micro locators, and other visibility effects will remove you from camo. Perhaps firing weapons and using modules do the same, balance dependent. The station has health, is destructible, and has a range between 1000 and 2500m, balance and mk dependent. It could use the Engineer Station model for size use. (Micro Locators are a little hard to hit to provide this effect.)

Missile Redirection Unit - Inspired by DarthDirk - A stationary deployable object that redirects guided missiles within a set radius (potentially scaling with mk). The Missile is diverted and thrown off into space, with a 50% chance of being redirected towards an ally that shot it. 1 missile redirected every set number of seconds.

 

*Placeholder for potential additions to this list*

 

Changes to existing Modules:

-Ion Diffuser no longer turns off active modules, or only disables them for the duration of its disable, with the module automatically returning to functionality afterwards.  As is, the Ion Diffuser can single handedly take an entire build and make it worthless. It’s already very powerful without this, and as previously stated, not interactive.

-Stasis Generator no longer stops a player from activating modules and its duration is decreased.  Right now, it’s as non-interactive as it can possibly get, forcing the ship to coast outwards into open traffic and get focused, or sit still for the same effect. When combined with the inability to fire or use modules, it becomes unacceptable. In addition, 3 seconds is a very long time for this effect. The duration should be lowered, especially if preventing module activation remains part of the effect.

 

Note that nerfing these modules and providing strong, interactive alternatives will encourage players to change up how they build their ECMs. Rather than always taking two disables, players will be encouraged to take them less often, and use alternate options that are more interactive with potential situation.

 

The System Hack is the most fun I’ve ever had with ECMs for good reason. That level of interactivity should be encouraged and built upon. I look forward to civil discussion on this matter, and implore the devs to consider what has been said. Thank you for your time.

 

P.S. I am not including a poll with this thread due to the vast amount of information in it.

#2

I agree with your analysis on interactivity, and this stems from the often used argument of the ECM stuns being “no-skill” modules. I don’t see, however, how your suggestions are adressing this issue of interactivity.  You are just removing the only capabilities that the ECM has by nerfing these two modules. Several points I would like to make:

 

-The camouflage field sounds like a good idea at first sight, but I think it would have a large influence on the game and it’s balancing would have to be further considered.  Also it would make the spectre field somewhat redundant.

 

-I would like to suggest that instead of nerfing the ECM’s modules, give it other viable options instead.  The cov op’s white noise is the perfect example of a module that would be more suited on an ECM, and that would offer alternatives to the stuns.  Removing lock-on would be an extra task that ECMs would be assigned, and this would increase interactivity.  Why not even give it an IR Pulsar of some kind, which would require lock-on?

 

-I agree that the Stasis Generator should not affect modules or weapons though, and only influence the target ship’s engines.  In its current state, it equivalates to “unplugging the enemy’s keyboard for 4 seconds” as I have heard people describing it before.

 

 

In conclusion: right now the logical modules combination to use is heal module + two stuns + system hack (previously energy drainer, but the energy draining missiles are sufficient and the system hack is more useful).  This needs to change by offering other options for pilots to fit, and not by nerfing the stuns.

#3

ECMs don’t offer these considerations. The most interactivity they had before System Hack was how many Proton Walls you could afford to fit on your ships, a modifier that protects you from a maximum of four different control effects, three of them ECM disables.

Five, actually. White noise and IR pulsar are the non-ECM ones, metastable field, ion diffuser, and stasis generator are the ECM ones.

Changes to existing Modules:

-Ion Diffuser no longer turns off active modules, or only disables them for the duration of its disable, with the module automatically returning to functionality afterwards.  As is, the Ion Diffuser can single handedly take an entire build and make it worthless. It’s already very powerful without this, and as previously stated, not interactive.

I have no idea what you’re talking about I love it when my 6k shield heals get shut down before healing me at all

#4

+1

 

Great suggestions overall. You are spot on with your analysis of the role itself not being very interactive.

 

I think a good idea for a more interactive module for ECM would be a station/effect that causes missiles fired by opponents in a radius to lose lock from their target, and in turn target an ally ship (of the player that shot the missile). For example (numbers are only my thoughts):

-Module: Redirection Station (placeable object similar to a repair station).

-Effect: Redirects all guided missiles within a radius to an ally of the ship who shot them.

          Mk 1: Redirects any guided missile within a 1250m radius (max of 1 missile). Recharge: 90 seconds

          Mk 2: " within a 1500m radius (max of 2 missiles). Recharge: 85 seconds

          Mk 3: " within a 1750m radius (max of 3 missiles). Recharge: 80 seconds

          Mk 4: " within a 2000m radius (max 4 missiles). Recharge: 75 seconds.

I think this could provide some interesting gameplay. Place the station in the middle of an enemy team, and suddenly their guided missiles are targeting their own teammates.

#5

I agree with your analysis on interactivity, and this stems from the often used argument of the ECM stuns being “no-skill” modules. I don’t see, however, how your suggestions are adressing this issue of interactivity.  You are just removing the only capabilities that the ECM has by nerfing these two modules. Several points I would like to make:

 

-The camouflage field sounds like a good idea at first sight, but I think it would have a large influence on the game and it’s balancing would have to be further considered.  Also it would make the spectre field somewhat redundant.

 

-I would like to suggest that instead of nerfing the ECM’s modules, give it other viable options instead.  The cov op’s white noise is the perfect example of a module that would be more suited on an ECM, and that would offer alternatives to the stuns.  Removing lock-on would be an extra task that ECMs would be assigned, and this would increase interactivity.  Why not even give it an IR Pulsar of some kind, which would require lock-on?

 

-I agree that the Stasis Generator should not affect modules or weapons though, and only influence the target ship’s engines.  In its current state, it equivalates to “unplugging the enemy’s keyboard for 4 seconds” as I have heard people describing it before.

 

 

In conclusion: right now the logical modules combination to use is heal module + two stuns + system hack (previously energy drainer, but the energy draining missiles are sufficient and the system hack is more useful).  This needs to change by offering other options for pilots to fit, and not by nerfing the stuns.

 

This post is more to address the lack of interactivity moreso than assume that the suggestions I provided will fix the problem. I was hoping that the community or devs would have better solutions than me alone.

#6

I think this could provide some interesting trololol opportunities. Place the station in the middle of an enemy team, and suddenly their guided missiles are targeting their own teammates.

 

FIFY

+1 :slight_smile:

 

But seriously I kinda like this idea! It would provide interactivity by forcing people to consider whether they want to fire missiles with ECMs in the vicinity. But I think it affecting several missiles is too strong. Maybe just one or two.

#7

This post is more to address the lack of interactivity moreso than assume that the suggestions I provided will fix the problem. I was hoping that the community or devs would have better solutions than me alone.

 

Ok I see what you mean. What do you think of my suggestions then?  I’ll also try and think of some others.

#8

FIFY

+1 :slight_smile:

 

But seriously I kinda like this idea! It would provide interactivity by forcing people to consider whether they want to fire missiles with ECMs in the vicinity. But I think it affecting several missiles is too strong. Maybe just one or two.

 

Ah, I didn’t think of that, I’ll edit it, maybe make it so it lasts 10 seconds, and change the time between missile redirections, so that at purple, a max of 3 can be redirected.

#9

Ah, I didn’t think of that, I’ll edit it, maybe make it so it lasts 10 seconds, and change the time between missile redirections, so that at purple, a max of 3 can be redirected.

 

How I see it, we don’t want it being stronger than the missile shield, while still being stronger than flares (and more useful since you are also damaging the enemy!).

 

BTW for anything suggestions people come up with here, it would be a good idea to create a new thread at some point, once the brainstorming process is finished.

#10

Five, actually. White noise and IR pulsar are the non-ECM ones, metastable field, ion diffuser, and stasis generator are the ECM ones.

The fact that these are the only things Proton Wall protects from is another reason why the role isn’t interactive. Proton Walls would need to do more than handle five modules that you might not ever get hit by, and it takes up a modifier spot that provides no other bonus. Note how other CPU modifiers (and most modifiers in general) all do something functionally relevant or offer a secondary bonus to their primary effect to make up for narrow usage.

At least with System Hack, drones and mines are common enough that you’ll usually have something to steal.

 

I think a good idea for a more interactive module for ECM would be a station/effect that causes missiles fired by opponents in a radius to lose lock from their target, and in turn target an ally ship (of the player that shot the missile). For example (numbers are only my thoughts):

-Module: Redirection Station (placeable object similar to a repair station).

-Effect: Redirects all guided missiles within a radius to an ally of the ship who shot them.

          Mk 1: Redirects any guided missile within a 1250m radius (max of 1 missile). Recharge: 90 seconds

          Mk 2: " within a 1500m radius (max of 2 missiles). Recharge: 85 seconds

          Mk 3: " within a 1750m radius (max of 3 missiles). Recharge: 80 seconds

          Mk 4: " within a 2000m radius (max 4 missiles). Recharge: 75 seconds.

I think this could provide some interesting gameplay. Place the station in the middle of an enemy team, and suddenly their guided missiles are targeting their own teammates.

This is a neat idea, but could be too powerful if done poorly. Perhaps just a scrambler that instead of redirecting, just makes them fly off in random directions?

That said, this is the kind of interactivity ECMs need. Added to the original post.

 

-I would like to suggest that instead of nerfing the ECM’s modules, give it other viable options instead.  The cov op’s white noise is the perfect example of a module that would be more suited on an ECM, and that would offer alternatives to the stuns.  Removing lock-on would be an extra task that ECMs would be assigned, and this would increase interactivity.  Why not even give it an IR Pulsar of some kind, which would require lock-on?

 

-I agree that the Stasis Generator should not affect modules or weapons though, and only influence the target ship’s engines.  In its current state, it equivalates to “unplugging the enemy’s keyboard for 4 seconds” as I have heard people describing it before.

 

In conclusion: right now the logical modules combination to use is heal module + two stuns + system hack (previously energy drainer, but the energy draining missiles are sufficient and the system hack is more useful).  This needs to change by offering other options for pilots to fit, and not by nerfing the stuns.

A variant of the White Noise (or just flat out moving it to ECM) would be nice, but I like the idea of the Camo field more. I don’t think having both would be good.

 

How I see it, we don’t want it being stronger than the missile shield, while still being stronger than flares (and more useful since you are also damaging the enemy!).

 

BTW for anything suggestions people come up with here, it would be a good idea to create a new thread at some point, once the brainstorming process is finished.

A variant of the missile shield seems appropriate for the ECM class, but much more suited as a jammer/scrambler than a straight stopping mechanism. That seems far more appropriate on Guards.

#11

Duuuude. Duuuuuuuuude. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

no

#12

Duuuude. Duuuuuuuuude. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

no

If at any point you’ve ever wondered why you’re not respected around here, why so few people like you or listen to you, or give you even the slightest bit of consideration, this is exactly the kind of behavior that causes it.

Kindly leave and allow actual respectable discussion to happen. You are not welcome.

#13

I’ve said much the same thing about the ECM for as long as I can remember. Having your keyboard unplugged is not fun. Nor is it particularly challenging to win by unplugging people’s keyboard and then shooting them.

 

The only counter to the ECM is… another ECM. Unplug their keyboard before they can unplug yours. Great. Wonderful. We have a class built around circle-jerking while the rest of us are trying to play Star Conflict.

 

I doubt the Devs will ever bother to even try to fix the ECM. The System Hack module is praised by some, but personally I don’t see it as praiseworthy. It’s just another way to annoy people; the fact it’s slightly less annoying, in that it only annoys certain classes, doesn’t make it any better in my mind.

#14

Disables and crowd control abilities and skills are an important part of any “team themed” PvP game, they create another layer on counter and counter-counter play, current ECM state is in a good place and it is a good enforcing counterbalancing anchor to many things (just as much as some other roles in the game), preventing them going out of hand. Playing as ECM or against ECM takes a great level of positioning and understanding how other roles play and work. Those random ECM that just spam module because it is off cd are liability to their team, wasting anything good ECM could bring to the team, adn simply a free kill.

The “unplugging keyboard” is plain BS statement, no matter what you fly.

#15

If at any point you’ve ever wondered why you’re not respected around here, why so few people like you or listen to you, or give you even the slightest bit of consideration, this is exactly the kind of behavior that causes it.

Kindly leave and allow actual respectable discussion to happen. You are not welcome.

Ecms are good the way they are. If they change it, it will get worse. Thats clearly NOT obvious to you. Any experienced player with half a brain realizes that it will screw things up. To me, it appears we have kaiju #2 here. Ooh and he tries to silence opposing views too.

I have my vote just like everyone and just cuz u dislike it doesnt mean im not welcome. Dont get ur panties in a knot. Just take a chill pill. Or two.

#16

Aside from the system hack, I will say that the Weapon system inhibitor and the energy absorber are all very decently interactive modules, and that they are the true examples.

For instance, they could create a very similar module to the weapon system inhibitor that of which would take down regeneration rates, like the spydrones but to a single target, perhaps 70-80% reduction~

 

The Ion Emitter allows your ship to still move as you wish it to, so you can keep dodging. Ion must be allowed to take down modules.

 

Stasis will stay as it is. The only thing I can say that is changeable for the module, is to allow enemies to use their modules while under its effect,  as the module is only intended to prevent further movement. However, Stasis does not stop you from moving. It also does not turn off your modules, it simply keeps you from turning them on or off.

Before you are put under stasis, you will coast in the direction you were moving when it is activated on you. If you are strafing, it’s a little harder for the enemy to hit you when you strafe to dodge. It’s simply easier to hit those who focus on their forward speed, because they’re basically going in the straight line they were always going before they are put under stasis.  At least that’s how it is with Interceptors. If you use stasis on a gunship, or a frigate, you’re wasting it unless it’s to gather a few seconds of time, or to make them hit a wall, if they’re that predictable. 

 

Anyways, Stasis only takes away your keyboard if you do not plan for the possibility. Even then, it’s only for a few seconds. (maximum of 4, and that’s with the wakizashi AE.) Any form of anti effects prevention takes down that small amount of time considerably. the 2c implant, for instance. A single proton wall, though not needed, would take it down even more. Which means that the maximum 4 seconds would be taken

down to only a little over 2 seconds. And what about those ecms without the bonus to ecm time? well, even less. Stasis, while a great module, certainly isn’t god-like in time capabilities. 

Anti control effects is certainly not the only way to defend yourself.

Ir-pulsar? don’t lock on. White noise? its the only module you can’t really defend against, use lasers, and unguided missiles. it’ll be rendered a useless module.

Ion Emitter? fly as you would normally when you’re simply trying to survive, or fly to intimidate your enemy, and act like you’re going to attack, until you’re actually ready to do so. 

Stasis? plan.

 

As a bonus note, while strafing as an ecm, right before activating the metastable field, strafe in the direction you want to go, and you’ll basically be under the same effect that stasis puts under enemy ships;

You’ll glide/coast to where you wish to be, and it’s a good measure to take down minefields, which now explode faster~

#17

Disables and crowd control abilities and skills are an important part of any “team themed” PvP game, they create another layer on counter and counter-counter play, current ECM state is in a good place and it is a good enforcing counterbalancing anchor to many things (just as much as some other roles in the game), preventing them going out of hand. Playing as ECM or against ECM takes a great level of positioning and understanding how other roles play and work. Those random ECM that just spam module because it is off cd are liability to their team, wasting anything good ECM could bring to the team, adn simply a free kill.

The “unplugging keyboard” is plain BS statement, no matter what you fly.

You’re missing the primary point, which I thought I made pretty clear. They aren’t interactive and thus aren’t fun. You can balance or place them as much as you like. People hate the class and don’t find them fun. That’s not good for the game as a whole, its longevity especially so.

 

Ecms are good the way they are. If they change it, it will get worse. Thats clearly NOT obvious to you. Any experienced player with half a brain realizes that it will screw things up. To me, it appears we have kaiju #2 here. Ooh and he tries to silence opposing views too.

I have my vote just like everyone and just cuz u dislike it doesnt mean im not welcome. Dont get ur panties in a knot. Just take a chill pill. Or two.

Then provide an actual response with something useful to say. Even a “I disagree with your thoughts but am not entirely sure how to word it” would suffice. Otherwise you’re remaining a detriment to the thread and the community. Considering the other responses to this thread, some nonzero number of other experienced players seem to agree with my stance.

#18

You’re missing the primary point, which I thought I made pretty clear. They aren’t interactive and thus aren’t fun. You can balance or place them as much as you like. People hate the class and don’t find them fun. That’s not good for the game as a whole, its longevity especially so.

You made it clear that you believe that they are not interactive, but for me and they way i play stasis and ion create a xxxx tons of interactions, no matter if i am in ECM or against - i must track enemies cd, i must understand enemies build to know which of his skill i should or should not disable, i must know and expect enemy to use his skill in certain time so i have a clear disable on him and do not get ECM/disabled/preoccupied myself, throw in priorities of targets too. IF you are against ECM all of this goes to you too, you must track and see where ECM is and what skills he has up for use, 30 seconds seems like a short time and pointless to track, but you’d be wrong, of course tracking everything is impossible but tracking some of it give you an edge vs your enemy, i go as long as counting enemy Rockets in small games (not even mentioning Torps/minefields) and try to refer to a CD on it.

The simplicity of Disables on ECM is only a description on it, the depth it brings into the game on “higher” level is immeasurable.

#19

Then provide an actual response with something useful to say. Even a “I disagree with your thoughts but am not entirely sure how to word it” would suffice. Otherwise you’re remaining a detriment to the thread and the community. Considering the other responses to this thread, some nonzero number of other experienced players seem to agree with my stance.

The community is larger than 2 ppl. The devs jack things up when they change em usually.

Saying no is me saying I disagree and know how to word it. The dude part was mere boredom.

#20

Now to go back on topic, as it should be, Nuc, you’re being a little too closed minded. 

Kosty, if you don’t mind, what modules would you make to keep the complexity of the game at a high level if they were to replace the ion and the stasis, 

Arctic, please do the same.

 

If you disagree with NuclearHail, state so, and say that you’d rather like to keep the ecm modules as they are, or put in your own suggestion, so that the devs have more to choose from if they indeed try to restructure the class. Make it so they don’t fail at it, and, in the process, make you hate it even more. (to play as an ecm, rather than playing against… or both)