Rebalance to stop Power Creep in Weapon Upgrades

Suggestions Balance
#1

I fully expect this to get next to no support.

 

This idea came from this video by Penny Arcade: 

 

The concept is fairly simple: currently each weapon and passive module upgrade is increasingly more powerful with almost no downsides. Thus, despite the stat upgrades between each Mk upgrade being rather small, the overall difference between Mk1 and Mk5 is quite large, making pilots who have just reached a new tier unable to hold their own against veterans.

 

So here’s my suggestion:

 

  1. Keep the DPS between all weapon upgrades constant, and make the difference come from stat changes that revolve around an “ideal” statistics setup (Which would be at Mk3).

 

  1. Make Passive Modules also revolve around an “ideal” statistic setup (Mk3) but allow players to skew the statistics in favor of certain bonuses at the cost of increased negative effects (malus).

 

  1. Make upgraded Active Modules more powerful, but also take longer to recharge as they are upgraded. Make low level Active Modules less effective, but faster to recharge.

 

WEAPON EXAMPLE: Make the Mk1 Assault Railgun have a very fast Rate of Fire, but very low Bullet Damage, and greater Spread. As you upgrade the gun from Mk1 to Mk2, the Rate of Fire decreases while Bullet Damage increases, and Spread also decreases slightly.

 

Mk3 would be the median point where all stats are relatively average and the gun is at its most ‘balanced’. Rate of Fire and Damage per Bullet are both average, with a relatively low Spread.

 

By the time you hit Mk 5, the guns Rate of Fire is quite slow, but with massive Damage per Bullet, and almost no Spread.

The key is, DPS between all those weapons remains the same, so no one weapon is definitively ‘better’ than another.

 

This would make the Mk1 weapons easy to use for players new to the Tier, as it gives them more chances to hit the enemy and makes them feel more powerful. Mk3 weapons are the prime balancing point where the weapon is good all-around, and Mk5 caters to high-skill players, as it is more costly to miss a shot, but very rewarding if you connect with every single bullet.

 

PASSIVE MODULE EXAMPLE: Make Armored Hull boost overall armor volume only slightly, while it’s impact on ship speed is also relatively low at Mk1. As the module is upgraded to further increase the amount by which it boosts the ship’s armor, make it also further hinder ship speed.

 

ACTIVE MODULE EXAMPLE: Make Liquid Metal Injector restore less armor, but recharge much faster at Mk1. At MK4, Liquid Metal Injector restores a lot of armor, but recharges much slower.

 

 

Think of the above suggestions in relation to a car game in which you can “tune” your car’s performance with sliders. You may want more acceleration in your transmission, but that will cost you some top speed. You may want to increase your car’s turning response, but that will cost you some stability at higher speeds.

 

This is essentially, suggesting that ship upgrades stop being purely about adding more power, and start functioning as aftermarket ‘tuning’ parts with benefits and negative effects.

#2

I actually like the Weapon example, but I don’t see this happening…

#3

The actual increase from mk 3 to mk5 is very small and doesn’t make the grind worthy.

But it is a nice idea nonetheless.

#4

Back in the day the negative penalties of modules used to increase as well. Putting this back in would make building ships far more interesting. After all, a Purple Styx would have amazing resistance and health, but it would also be slow as hell and have the turning circle of a small moon no matter how many collision compensators you equipped.

 

Weapons could potentially go the same way. A Mk V Gauss might have an amazing crit chance and impressive damage, but it might also overheat in 1-2 shots, meaning that you need every shot to land in order to make the weapon worth using. By contrast, the Mk I Gauss has a very low heat buildup, making it ideal for players who want (or need) to make multiple shots on a target at the expense of damage per shot.

 

Most importantly, it would make White / Green ships viable again. Generally speaking, Mk I / Mk II modules would be ideal for all-rounder ships (not many buffs, but few penalties either), and higher-end modules are used to fine-tune to your specific play style.

#5

Back in the day the negative penalties of modules used to increase as well. Putting this back in would make building ships far more interesting. After all, a Purple Styx would have amazing resistance and health, but it would also be slow as hell and have the turning circle of a small moon no matter how many collision compensators you equipped.

 

Weapons could potentially go the same way. A Mk V Gauss might have an amazing crit chance and impressive damage, but it might also overheat in 1-2 shots, meaning that you need every shot to land in order to make the weapon worth using. By contrast, the Mk I Gauss has a very low heat buildup, making it ideal for players who want (or need) to make multiple shots on a target at the expense of damage per shot.

 

Most importantly, it would make White / Green ships viable again. Generally speaking, Mk I / Mk II modules would be ideal for all-rounder ships (not many buffs, but few penalties either), and higher-end modules are used to fine-tune to your specific play style.

 

Here is a man who understands.

#6

Here is a man who understands.

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#7

+1. Need to run an errand and grab a bite, will add on once I have more time.

#8

+1 about half of my suggested modules follow this sort of upgrade pattern.

#9

Well, then why would you upgrade your mods if the only thing you win is harder use ?

 

If this thing is implemented I see it more as tweaking of an item.

So mk1 is less powerful than mk5. But you can tweak your mk1-5 item to add RoF in exchange of Damage or the opposite. Meaning a 2nd  level “upgrade” independent from the mk X .

 

Right now, what you said about railguns : Pro players will use mk1 railguns (free), and will land all their shoot. They will only increase the gun with gunships because of overdrive and RoF cap.

#10

You would upgrade because skill counts, and skilled players can overcome the downsides.

Think about the glass cannon covops builds - huge DPS but insanely fragile. An average covops pilot would die over and over trying to use a build like that, but a skilled covops can tear through the enemy team and live.

That’s the idea behind scaling negatives. You can’t just upgrade and rely on Mk to carry you; you need to improve your own skill as well.

#11

You would upgrade because skill counts, and skilled players can overcome the downsides.

Think about the glass cannon covops builds - huge DPS but insanely fragile. An average covops pilot would die over and over trying to use a build like that, but a skilled covops can tear through the enemy team and live.

That’s the idea behind scaling negatives. You can’t just upgrade and rely on Mk to carry you; you need to improve your own skill as well.

I understand the idea. But I don’t see in which way the example the OP gave are a scaling of malus.

 

Decreasing RoF of Railguns with upgrades to but increasing the damage to keep the same DPS… It’s going at the opposite of the Railguns purpose : Medium constant fire.

What peoples do with their railguns is increase it’s RoF again and again, so why would they decrease it ?

 

You would say : Increasing spread but increasing damage, I would understand. But here, I don’t. 

#12

I don’t understand why I should upgrade a weapon and loss efficiency with it. An upgrade is that, an upgrade. Not a modification, that is what the ammo and the passives are for.

#13

I don’t understand why I should upgrade a weapon and loss efficiency with it. An upgrade is that, an upgrade. Not a modification, that is what the ammo and the passives are for.

^ This

Even with Mk2s in T5 / Sector Conquest i’ve no problems, i’m 1st even with my “green ships” …

The weapons are not unbalanced in my opinion.

There might be another way to get newbies in a tier not crushed like bots.

#14

More power, more heating?

 

I do think the variable downsides was a nice feature.  It gave a greater refinement ability.  Sometimes you didn’t want the upgrade.

#15

Sadly, game mechanics aren’t changing post 1.0.0

 

Was stated pretty clearly in Ask-the-Devs, so this topic is now pointless, if wishful…

#16

Sadly, game mechanics aren’t changing post 1.0.0

 

Was stated pretty clearly in Ask-the-Devs, so this topic is now pointless, if wishful…

Yeah I was a bit sad when I saw it. 

So there won’t be new modules with new mechanics like was RT,…

#17

I see your point and agree with some parts, namely the bit about having different benefits/negative effects depending on the upgrade level.

 

However, I would suggest that the pilot simply “unlocks” different versions of the weapon produced by whoever makes the weapons in the SCon universe. Each would have a unique subtitle for the weapon. These would be selectable by the pilot prior to battle.  For instance, the Railgun would have: “Railgun (basic weapon)” “Railgun ‘Canary’ (increased firing range)” “Railgun ‘Gattler’ (+5% fire rate)” “Railgun ‘Shredder’ (Increased damage, reduced fire rate [from original post])” and "Railgun ‘Mk V’ (Increased damage, regular fire rate, and reduced range/spread).

 

Again, I don’t necessarily think the weapons are unbalanced enough for the change, but this would be the ideal model in my opinion.

#18

Play T1, Upgrade, Trow away everything, Start T2, repeat.

It may not be much in comparison now, but back in the days when there was T5 and alive T4 alongside I decided I like T4 the most (T3 did not have engine modules) and I invested all my loyalty and artifacts for enough modules and weapons to have at least 5 ships fully purple geared. 
Few weeks later T4 died and there was only T3 and T5.
Now T4 is merged with T5.

 

I have not used my T4 ships in 6+ months already ?
Feels like grinding for a month in WoW for best lvl 80 stuff before lvl 85 is released and basically a green item lvl 81 have 2x the stats of your purple lvl 80 one.

 

 

About passive modules :

I think we better have something like this :

Armor increase by : 40%

Speed reduce by 25>20>15>10>5% (Not actual numbers, do not flame on me)

 

As I per my suggestion for “Cargo Hauler module”, where you should get 2 cargo slots and get slowed by A>B>C>D>E %.

Bonus is the same in any case, but malus is decreased.

#19

Play T1, Upgrade, Trow away everything, Start T2, repeat.

It may not be much in comparison now, but back in the days when there was T5 and alive T4 alongside I decided I like T4 the most (T3 did not have engine modules) and I invested all my loyalty and artifacts for enough modules and weapons to have at least 5 ships fully purple geared. 

Few weeks later T4 died and there was only T3 and T5.

Now T4 is merged with T5.

 

I have not used my T4 ships in 6+ months already ?

Feels like grinding for a month in WoW for best lvl 80 stuff before lvl 85 is released and basically a green item lvl 81 have 2x the stats of your purple lvl 80 one.

 

 

About passive modules :

I think we better have something like this :

Armor increase by : 40%

Speed reduce by 25>20>15>10>5% (Not actual numbers, do not flame on me)

 

As I per my suggestion for “Cargo Hauler module”, where you should get 2 cargo slots and get slowed by A>B>C>D>E %.

Bonus is the same in any case, but malus is decreased.

So overall, your idea is fixed bonus but degrading disadvantage?

#20

So overall, your idea is fixed bonus but degrading disadvantage?

Yes.

basically the “Lore” Is that the longer you fly one ship (and use its modules) the more you get used to it.

Not that the longer you fly a ship the more nuts and bolts you add to your ship (hull points) and more energy you put in your shields (more shields) and you add more coils to your reactor, so it will generate energy faster ?

I play Railguns. 

I pick them up for the first time. 

I shoot like a madman and have 270 degree spread.

 

Few days later I have more experience and I control my recoil better. My spread is just 180 degree now !

Few hundred hours later I am so used to it that my accuracy became good enough to constantly hit a frigate sitting next to me.

Few hundred more hours I can hit the same frigate 3km away, while moving !

Few hundred more hours and I can control bursts and hit interceptors with every other bullet !

… I am ace with Railguns now. I hit interceptor doing evasive maneuvers with 80% accuracy !

*This is a “lore based example”, but you feel my drift.

 

P.S.:> Do not hate me, but I will be fine with Synergy for weapons, as long as it is not a pay2GL feature like free synergy is.  Or at least not on that scale. 

If one decides to level up r13 solely with GS free synergy it takes about as much as premium T5 to get it to level enough to buy the R15 ?