Phoenix is P2W

[7445062]

Fine, since this was deleted from the suggestions forum. I don’t have time to go over the math again (not going to repeat myself).

However, it has 1200 DPS more than standard drones have heal. in 7 seconds it does as much damage as drones heal (8.4k).

After that it’s 35 secs for a drone reload, so you’d have to heal 10 teammates with drones for them to be ‘balanced’.

This is old news btw, just thought I’d bring it up again to necro a relevant topic.

No wait… that’s wrong… Phoenix drone DPS probably scales beyond 500 (maybe 800?)… In which case it’s Uber Kaput!

[xKostyan]

[7445062]

Side note: I keep getting KS’d by Thar’Ga’s kaput DPS.

Just last game a Thar’Ga went 20 kills, KS’d everyone.

19.2% vs 52.7%, 31.3% vs 68.7%, 21.2% vs 71.35%, 2% vs 69.3% damage.

Lol, love the 2% last-hit KS, that was clutch! :\

Stat farmers…

[xKostyan]

18 minutes ago, betatrash said:

Side note: I keep getting KS’d by Thar’Ga’s kaput DPS.

Just last game a Thar’Ga went 20 kills, KS’d everyone.

19.2% vs 52.7%, 31.3% vs 68.7%, 21.2% vs 71.35%, 2% vs 69.3% damage.

Lol, love the 2% last-hit KS, that was clutch! :\

Stat farmers…

 

[7445062]

How to KS with Thar’Ga: Wait till target has under 5k health… then hit them once… Although that’s probably low. I don’t have the stats on R15 Mk.4.

[41110807]

[17324559]

7 hours ago, betatrash said:

Fine, since this was deleted from the suggestions forum. I don’t have time to go over the math again (not going to repeat myself).

However, it has 1200 DPS more than standard drones have heal. in 7 seconds it does as much damage as drones heal (8.4k).

After that it’s 35 secs for a drone reload, so you’d have to heal 10 teammates with drones for them to be ‘balanced’.

This is old news btw, just thought I’d bring it up again to necro a relevant topic.

No wait… that’s wrong… Phoenix drone DPS probably scales beyond 500 (maybe 800?)… In which case it’s Uber Kaput!

Considering the Phoenix is the worst healer in the r8 and up (she doesn’t have a cap slot - not a single one!), no heal buffs, no possibility to use drones to heal an ally. It’s not designed as a healer - it’s a heavy fire support ship with marginal heals, unless you are willing to use hull slots to generate energy (then it’s as hard to kill as a roll  of wet toilet paper). You were comparing it to the Styx yesterday - I did a custom battle 1v1 Phoenix vs Styx just to test it. Styx won with 60% of hull left… So thanks again for bringing back the relevant topic - it is solved now and we can move on. If you want to raise another relevant topic - sure. Just don’t do it by comparison a default random builds of ships in the ship tree and guessing their abilities as you did with those two, ok? Do the research, few custom battles to support your claims. “Maybe” is not a word that should be used in such cases, and for sure not in the “Balance” section.

 Also I can fully agree that Phoenix as a healer is kaputt (for those not familiar with German - it means useless, broken beyond repair). 

 

4 hours ago, betatrash said:

 

How to KS with Thar’Ga: Wait till target has under 5k health… then hit them once… Although that’s probably low. I don’t have the stats on R15 Mk.4.

 

Same story here. For Thar’ga to proc 5k dmg per shot - it has to be very close to the target (all projectile hit), activated aiming overcharge and/or Alien Intuition.

Your recon by default will be outgunned, because it has… less barrels (2vs4)

(BTW: Covops can easily hit  5k dps for 10 seconds, so if you don’t like tharga - use covops? Covops has also a lot of finishing options ideal to finishing off weakened targets).

And last but not least - if that Thar’ga was doing less damage than you to the target, she will have less eff points as well as less syn gains. So what’s the problem? You are getting synergy/credits, Tharga’s pilot is feeding his ego with easy kills, you win the game, doing objectives. Win-win for me. 

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Phoenix is perfectly fine. Winning depends on pilot alone, ship is like 5% and pilot is 95%. I could defeat you in Phenix with weak Tier 1 ship. Git gut! 

[7445062]

Uhm ok… why are you here again? Thanks for the troll-worthy comment, I suppose?

Although, I can appreciate the irony and sarcasm, as that’s often an excuse used by pilots of imba/broken ships.

[7445062]

Why is it that the aristocracy always support broken ships? Special interests to maintain? There really is no argument in their defense worthy to speak of.

I did the math on Thar’kth, which can be brought close to 1-1.5 degrees spread, and can hit fighters 100% of the time at 1.5k, inties 100% at 1k or something, frigates are no problem. Adding distance only slightly reduces their DPS. From experience, it’s easy to see that they also have no problem hitting you 90% of the time in battle, so it’s not just the math…

re: Phoenix, what are you implying? It’s cap-stable with R7-2… which is good enough for any engineer to use heals. It doesn’t need to pop drones, which are 300e+ per use… maybe energy-management classes are in order.

Actually, I just did a custom battle and the Phoenix won vs Styx with 40% Hp left. Maybe you’re not in drone range, which completely explains your mystery.

You may also want to test Styx vs Inti, and Phoenix vs Inti, which is simply no contest. A Styx can barely touch an Inti, whereas a Phoenix will shred them. 2 Phoenix = say goodbye to your Inti in 5 seconds…

[xKostyan]

Healing output from engineers scales with energy, amount of team healing Styx produces compared to Phoenix is on a completely different level, and due to being rank 9 gives it an access to Galvanized plate and 9-1 implant, which makes it considerably lankier than Phoenix.

Phoenix has more dmg but it is xxxx as a healer, why would i bring an Engineer to do DPS especialy if it dies like a wet tissue paper to actual DPS classes?

[12053369]

No

I’m not P2W ;3 

[7445062]

Energy management is not an issue here. Any healer worth their salt will know how to manage it.

2-3 Phoenix > 2-3 Styx, as you don’t need that much heals, it’s overkill.

Furthermore, You can use Energy Emitter, Eliminating ALL of your energy problems.

Likewise, drones are only a SMALL fraction of heals given 2 active aoes and 2 repair/charge stations.

Not to mention repairs from ally engineers…

The only valid arguments are EM-diffuser and Galvanized. One is a rank/tier issue, and the other is a slot issue.

But neither of those have ANYTHING to do with drone heals vs drone DPS.

+1200/1500 DPS is more ‘benefit to team’ (ahem also self) than 300 DPS self-heals or within 600m (since you’d have to heal 10 teammates).

I mean, just compare it to other engineers of its class, or those a rank below as well (given Styx is a rank above, with newer generation modules). None have such a capability, and are easily outclassed. Even Fed Engis a rank above have as much mobility and tank as Phoenix, but are ‘outclassed’ (so very aristocratic that word) by drone DPS.

The other issue of course being that’s it’s a no-skill auto-aim anti-interceptor weapon that does 2400 DPS at Mk4 constantly? That’s just nonsensical in the realm of all things…

 

[xKostyan]

You really have no clue how Engineers work here, do you?

Amount of healing scales with a total amount of energy, Energy Emitter is not going to make you heal any better.

EM-Diffuser on a Styx?? - Shield splitter to increase your capacitor volume, which will increase your base healing by a lot which will be scaled by Styx Engineering bonus, you really not taking into account how much more Styx heals in total, especially in a Team setting.

Phoenix is very slow with a terrible hull tanking for an Empire frigate (in r9 games) and playing it in Front Lines (to have Drones in range) means that you will collect a lot of attention, and deads do zero dps and zero healing. 

If i need a DPS team support i’ll bring a command, if i need a team healing i’ll bring the Styx or Valor. Phoenix is ok for random pub play since you can play pretty much anything in those games, but the moment there is any resemblance of “xxxx just got real”, any of a sane player will put a phoenix on a shelf and bring something serious.

[xKostyan]

Why would i compare phoenix to an anaconda or raptor? Those are bad, and just a grind through ships. 1st federation good healer is a Valor, on top of that phoenix and valor and styx play in same queue.

[7445062]

Why isn’t that stated in the description? Seriously, basic stuff that’s missing…

‘Charges more proportionally with energy used’ - YUP, that sounds about right, we’ll just put that…

Which would seem to suggest energy per second, but instead we have volume. That’s LOGIC for you.

I’ve been Engineering all wrong since the update because of a faulty description? That’s nice, what else is broken?

Also, you mean Compact Shield Gen, not Splitter, which gives a small reduction in EHP which matters little with healing.

To make the matter simpler, it should be calculated in the item description based on volume.

Still, 2.5k auto-aim DPS at 2.5k range is a bit absurd, and I somehow doubt more cap volume would equal their DPS, but I haven’t run any numbers.

 

[xKostyan]

… you do know those healing auras have Passive AND Active modes right… and ACTIVE portion of the healing is the one this description is referencing too

[7445062]

‘Activation charges shields in 3200m. for 2394 pts. in 6 sec. Charges more proportionally with energy used’

Yup, it’s referencing the active. Not only that, it’s more than 2394 in 6 secs, as it was healing 880+ per tick, which would seem to suggest 5280, more with a larger cap.

So the description is kaput, besides 2.5k auto-aim drone DPS at 2.5k also being dysfunctional (effectively doubling their DPS).

 

[17324559]

8 hours ago, betatrash said:

‘Activation charges shields in 3200m. for 2394 pts. in 6 sec. Charges more proportionally with energy used’

Yup, it’s referencing the active. Not only that, it’s more than 2394 in 6 secs, as it was healing 880+ per tick, which would seem to suggest 5280, more with a larger cap.

So the description is kaput, besides 2.5k auto-aim drone DPS at 2.5k also being dysfunctional (effectively doubling their DPS).

 

Looks like someone didn’t even read the manual, not to  mention verification of your claims in such horrible way as “custom battle” - mode designed exactly for this - trying stuff.

As you proved multiple times you prefer to guess things instead of asking about them or even calculating them properly, here it is, for your eyes: excerpt from the game manual:

Quote

Nanodrone Cloud and Mass Shield Generator

In passive mode the Nanodrone Cloud and Mass Shield Generator slowly restore hull and shield respectively to ships around the engineer and engineer himself, activation greatly increases healing rate for a short period of time. Amount of healing during active mode scales with amount of available energy present in a capacitor upon activation. Nanodrone clouds and mass shield generators do not stack from multiple engineering frigates.

So what about the description then? Both those modules are draining as much energy as possible when activated. It doesn’t matter if your cap has 1k or 2k If you have 500 energy in cap when you activate them. Hence the “Charges more proportionally with energy used” - not “per second” as you assumed, nor “heals more with a larger cap”. “Heals more with fully charged larger cap” is more appropriate here, but still doesn’t sound right. “Charges more proportionally to energy stored in the capacitor when activated” would be nicer, but maybe they hit string length limit.

Also there is function in game “suggest translation”, so if you prefer some other description that’s more fitting you can always help. Takes less time than writing those threads. And if you don’t know how something works, there is a game manual, forum, in game chat - you can always ask.

[20305199]

28 minutes ago, niripas said:

Looks like someone didn’t even read the manual, not to  mention verification of your claims in such horrible way as “custom battle” - mode designed exactly for this - trying stuff.

As you proved multiple times you prefer to guess things instead of asking about them or even calculating them properly, here it is, for your eyes: excerpt from the game manual:

So what about the description then? Both those modules are draining as much energy as possible when activated. It doesn’t matter if your cap has 1k or 2k If you have 500 energy in cap when you activate them. Hence the “Charges more proportionally with energy used” - not “per second” as you assumed, nor “heals more with a larger cap”. “Heals more with fully charged larger cap” is more appropriate here, but still doesn’t sound right. “Charges more proportionally to energy stored in the capacitor when activated” would be nicer, but maybe they hit string length limit.

Also there is function in game “suggest translation”, so if you prefer some other description that’s more fitting you can always help. Takes less time than writing those threads. And if you don’t know how something works, there is a game manual, forum, in game chat - you can always ask.

The fact , you can’t say that when many of tooltips having the wrong info in-game ”)

may be its time to update info in-game with the good info ^^ ,  the mehanic for ingé have changed  its not like as described in-game 

about Phoeniw , indeed its not a pure healer but again the issue with this ship its all buff it can give for ally .

what happen often on PVP with team squad , 2 player take a styx ( with eclipse launcher and all buff to repair hull and shield ) and a phoenix

the phoenix buff the Styx , energy and shield , cover with drone debuff resist and this Kenetic weapon , good luck to down both those ship …xD

to be honest , many time players don’t understand they need to focus first the phoenix before attacking the tanky healer Styx …

i know its all about teamplay …

 

the other points , could down issue

since 2013 , Dev. make a choice that having a huge impact on game now .

normally on all game a could down star at the end of a skill but in SC , the could down ( CD ) start at the start of activation on any skill

for example for a MK1 , Sync shield ( phoenix active module ) , the CD set at 23 sec and activation time set at 5 sec … in practise in-game the CD isn’t 23 sec but (23-5) sec this is a big difference … its same state with the EM field diffuser on Long range , we can see above 35 sec for the CD but in practise in game the CD its only above 5-10 sec xD

my 2 cts , its one of the reason some ship with abitiy seems very broken now , its ike we can get perma Buff / skill without CD weakness