Make Destroyers Great Again - not UP / OP

[39930487]

Destroyers have become more vulnerable to damage from very close combat (within 750m they take 2.5 times the damage). Some say they are under powered (UP) now and became useless in open space missions. Some say destroyers are still over powered (OP). Others say it’s o.k. now, eventually.

I would like to encourage further tweaks on destroyer class to make them great again not op but not weaker than frigate class ships.

Please have your say and give suggestions and ideas ”)

Quote

 CinnamonFake (Posted, [here](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/32834-star-conflict-140d-discussion/&page=2#comment-392267),  5 hours ago)
Detsroyer now more represent their Suppressor ship class. Some cover in case of a close combat is required)

Issues with Destroyers:

#1a : If you choose a destr. main weapon like the Halo Launcher, you are good in suppressor role but you are totally vulnerable to close combat because this main weapon is bad against small maneuverable ships coming in to kill you (Kamikaze).

#1b : If you choose a destr. main weapon like the Meson Canon or Coilgun, you’re somewhat vulnerable to close combat but you are ineffective in suppressor role because this main weapon is bad in longer ranges and somewhat effective in medium to near ranges but still almost useless in close combat.

#2 : From the Plasma Arc on an Interceptor:covert ops alone you can get ‘death kiss’ and be more weak than a frigate against an interceptor. That is, since recent patch (1.4.0d, 15.02.2017) like 2.4x damage to engine, 1.5 x damage to destroyer active modules, and 2.5 x dmg to ship hull/shield within 750m and closer of range to a destroyer. If I read the patch notes correctly and if I am right with my math this would be in case for Plasma Arc (max damage per close range 200m attack): 

• destroyer engine/router: 2.4 x 7200 thermal damage per sec = 17,280 DPS x 3 s active module time = 51,840 thermal damage over 3s + 8000 white dmg on destruction == ~up to 60,000 thermal damage
• destroyer act. modules: 1.5 x 7200 thermal damage per sec = 10,800 DPS x 3 s active module time = 32,400 thermal damage over 3s + 6000 white dmg on destruction == ~up to 38,500 thermal damage
• destroyer hull/shield: 2.5 x 7200 thermal damage per sec = 17,280 DPS x 3 s active module time = 51,840 thermal damage over 3s
• some skilled pilots use the tactic to kill all modules of a destroyer in one attack with a Plasma Arc.

My Suggestion:

Yes - destroyers should get the choice of close combat defense module: Plasma turret and Blaster turret are less effective in close combat defense then my 3 Phoenix Drones, what if we had Heavy Phoenix repair drones for destroyers?

Name:                        Heavy Phoenix Drones
Type:                          Expendable drones   
DPS:                           764 (thermal)
Damage:                     917 dmg
Rate of fire:                 50 rounds/min
Firing range:                2600 m
Max number of drones:    2 (Jericho/Empire), 3 (Federation) 
Drone durability:          900 hull pts.
Drone active time:        30s
Ship repairs:                 185 hull pts/s
Energ. consumption:    50 en/s                
Max resistance reduction: 50 pts (5pts. each shot for 5s)    
Description:                  Drones with manual Attack/Repair mode switch. Attack locked target, restore hull. Drone projectiles reduce hull resistance to all damage by 5pts each for 5s.

SOURCES:
 

Spoiler

* [What Happened to the Destroyers?](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/32703-what-happened-to-the-destroyers/&)

* [so much weeks …](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/32837-so-much-weeks/#comment-392304)

* [comprehensive guide to Destroyers](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/29367-comprehensive-guide-to-destroyers/)

* [Star Conflict 1.3.12: Phase One](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/31529-star-conflict-1312-phase-one/)

 

 

 

[7405547]

absolutely no NO NO NO , stop with aimbot thing now the game is very fun and quick i don’t want automatic drone oneshot everything 

[39930487]

We have “aimbot things” already for frigates, gunships, interceptors, and destroyers, and despite you say “the game is very fun and quick”!

So why not have counter measure like frigates have? They are both restricted and very restricted in maneuverability and to fly a destroyer takes skill. This can be called balance, if you have a means of protection against one shot/arc killed by tiny paper space ships??

And it is either repair OR attack that’s a restriction and it is not very powerful like the Plasma arc etc. Come on…

[13427972]

No

Destroyer’s opnezz time is over. With it you must deal.

[3522870]

destroyers are not underpowered.

not saying there cant be tweaks or stuff. but piloting a CO is still more risky and dangerous, than a destro.

still better than games dominated by flux phasers and mainly range builds all over the place, just to fix the issue. and still hoping, at some point we rather get the destro balanced enough to lift the amount restrictions of them in the game - so the ship becomes a choice and not an obligation.

if the arc is so dominating, it could be simply excluded from the proximity damage buff. but to be honest, a well placed destro is a suicide mission, even for that “uber skilled co”. and as said, it is completely ignoring, how much effort it takes for CO atm. to compete with other roles, overall.

even if theoretically, you also feel the imbalance of the tharga, as interceptors still stand a chance to evade the mayhem, giving interceptors generally more time on the field, their impact can be miniscule otherwise. and of course, a destro, whose team gets gibbed by a tharga platoon has no friends and dies to that miracle covert ops. I still bet, that CO doesnt come out regularly with 15+ kills per match.

[39930487]

wise words, I concur. I also argue to leave the proximity damage buff  (<=750m dessy receives 3 x dmg)

However, I think: if word is out that destroyers should fit in their role, finally, that must be valid for “uber op co-op inties” (CO) as well: they have a role not that of an ubiquity ‘tool fits all’ roles, can “counter all” ship classes etc…

atm a well placed destro (t3,t4) is limited in effectiveness. dunno t5 destoyers, do not have one. only if protected by skilled interceptor fighters or if enemies fly up the position in straight line, destroyer is usefull in a limited way wit reduction in strategic value, now they are so slow.

I can deal with plasma arcing co-op inties way better in my frigate than in my destroyer (t3) - that’s what I addressed. And I pull the dessies down with my frigate now and before the nerf patch against destroyers…

If attack/repair drones for destroyers in near field were obstacle to  CO pilots, they can wait for cool down time or dessie is out of energy etc.pp. - imho makes it more interesting and not boring auto kill since you are near.

15+ kills per match … may vary in t5 and t3 PvP?

[40334983]

Close combat… well am not here to complain just wanted to share my experience with new changes on jericho tyrant destroyer and was SOoo funny to me ”)  lmao. ok here we go ahh righty now  off i go to pvp ok just lauch and game starts in under 2 seconds as soon as the game starts i die? i did the Q-bert thing @#?*  what happen oops did my destroyer farted and died oh am sorry! but just as i died i was able to catch a glimpse of the ship it was the plamas arc lol hehe ”). ok now i said and did the Bruce almighty thing. O righty now! ”)   Round 2!!!  Mortal Combat theme hehe now this time am ready changed my mods to therma protection now am adapting now … ok here we go… HERE. lizard, lizard ,lizard oh here he comes he gets one in  2 seconds  but i dont die but all mods are no good except for one!! hehe ”) ah ha! i got a plan!! …  GO -GO gadget wormhole i spring into action backwards so i can get him but neither to say there were 3 now oh BOY!! result i died again hehe ”) HMM am having soo much fun ok now i talk to teammates battle plan now ROUND 3! ok this time again he gets me in 2-3 secs i dont die but ALL mods are damge to the point where i cant use them ok now am going to do MIKE TYSON  thing and bite someones ear off!! LOL hehe:) OH boy dont look now here comes the Tharga with Cov-OP Plamsa arc … A.K.A killer clowns from outer space!!! SPLAT KA! POW!!  = GAME OVER … FLAWLESS VICTORY!!! killed by 2 mosquitos lol was so much fun with tactics … next time i will call on Buck Rogers and Twinkie The KID. fun fun fun!!  

[27323324]

Tweaking current nerfs to some specific scenarios and mechanics is all that is needed, this is just complicating stuff beyond repair.

[18111780]

Make Plasma Arc deal reduced damage to Destroyers that’s all that’s needed.

Since Destroyers are the capital ships of the game then they need to be approached that way, meaning have an escort to defend them from fast enemies at close range.

What you’re asking for is a ship that can do everything without the need for any kind of teamwork from the rest of the players, we had that before and it didn’t work.

If a destroyer is out of place, too far from any kind of support, it deserves to die in a fire, maybe not the insta-gib that is Plasma Arc but you get the idea.

 

[18147003]

For me it’s good idea but too high dmg. 3 turrets on destro deal a lot of dmg. 300-400 will be ok.

[39930487]

Destroyers are not capital ships of SC, because they have a special nerf so to be killed even by

17 minutes ago, Knight_ldr said:

…What you’re asking for is a ship that can do everything without the need for any kind of teamwork from the rest of the players, we had that before and it didn’t work.

To the contrary, exactly the opposite: I do react on the imbalance of uber-interceptors (and uber op thargas, but that’s another story) that can kill any destroyer without any kind of teamwork from the rest of the players. We had that before, was not enough nerf.

 

[18111780]

4 minutes ago, avarshina said:

Destroyers are not capital ships of SC, because they have a special nerf so to be killed even by

To the contrary, exactly the opposite: I do react on the imbalance of uber-interceptors (and uber op thargas, but that’s another story) that can kill any destroyer without any kind of teamwork from the rest of the players. We had that before, was not enough nerf.

 

If you had quoted the whole post I made you would seeing the part where I said: " Make Plasma Arc deal reduced damage to Destroyers that’s all that’s needed. "

[3522870]

1 hour ago, avarshina said:

that must be valid for “uber op co-op inties” as well: they have a role not that of an ubiquity ‘tool fits all’ roles

COs who equip plasma arc already make a major choice in the usage of the ship. It weakens them already in a dogfight against another fast mover, by sacrificing that active module, and i bet they add choices which increase that usage. the burst damage CO which can take out a destro uber fast, is for sure not fitted to counter all classes. Show me that fit.

Yes your role gives you strenghts and weaknesses, but every regular / classic ship has to additionally make decisions in their fitting, it’s not a singular role they fullfill. similarly, a destro can make decisions to be effective in different kinds of scenarios. If you would have close range defense against ceptors on that ship, to negate close range attacks, you should suffer in your medium to long range abilities. Which imho is basicly the case.

Not saying I do not disagree with punctual nerfs for modules like the halo knife, errh arc… Or that the defense batteries on the destro might not deserve love. But I am unsure, if the scenario really represents a lot more, than usually the very bitter deaths one might remember more vividly - deaths which COs kinda accept beforehand, as that ship can die pretty quick and often.

If the thargas wouldnt eat your team, your tacklers, guards, healers, dogfight-cos, gunships and basicly almost every role there is could simply defend you. I do that with my fed engi a lot. COs are really weak nowadays, compared to the glorious adaptive days 4 years ago. And even back then, when tacklers were a joke - in organized teams, gunships ruled over them. I mean, they almost died out in r15 last year, and i think it is even really hard to get into CO nowadays enough to master it in time, might be a lot more frustrating aswell.

Did you try flying a CO yourself, recently? I mean the Tharga kinda represents that ship without the huge risk factor, and more overall dps and abilities - while the CO basicly hurts exactly only the destro and a few slow frigs with that plasma arc nowadays, can only shoot forward, isnt the fastest on the field, and has lousy defense without hull resis from adaptives.

Speaking of which, i doubt, the CO could outburst a stingray in this scenario, while the stingray still has the upside of being a gunship, and way more rounded to continue on his way. Oh yeah, the thargas killed that guy. I hope this gets my point across. I think it is very insular as a scenario, even if it happens more regularly nowadays, it might also be a scenario that has other causes intertwining.

 

[39930487]

35 minutes ago, AKmatiAK said:

For me it’s good idea but too high dmg. 3 turrets on destro deal a lot of dmg. 300-400 will be ok.

I make calculations of main weapons base damages. This is what I have found:

Main Weapon rank 8
…
weapon DPS   base    mean    
interceptor
 empire             802
 federation        749
 jericho              749
fighter
 empire            1267
 federation        1279
 jericho              1184
frigate
 empire             2069
 federation        1289
 jericho             1289
destroyer
 empire            ? (do not have one)
 federation        3404
 jericho              4217

 

Now that the ships have different number of main gun turrets, how is the DPS calculated? I guess for all turrets of a ship combined. If so the 3 drones would not make more DPS than 2 or 1 drone? Can s.b. help here understand, pls.?

I know there was a post about this somewhere… will see.

[39930487]

g4borg: again your right in everything, but interceptors spawn much quicker, are cheaper, can make fun of all destroyers that have loooong respawn and repair… fly quick to them kill them, return to normal game… and laugh. We had that was not enough fun?? It is the joke that most effectively destroyers can die from smallest ship. Against a Destroyer you send a Destroyer - think about it!

There must be a way skill will come in against uber-CO in close combat for destroyer players At least a chance to stop a plasma arc from killing you with an effective tool that helps!! In my Phoenix frigate with 3 Phoenix drones (that can be switched from attack mode to repair mode and reverse) I can still be killed byinterceptors but not 100% - even by skilled players! Thats what I like about them - fairness!

P.S.: I see that there are gunships as well … hope my heavy repair drones will be an even strong opponent for them as well?

[3027279]

10 minutes ago, avarshina said:

g4borg: again your right in everything, but interceptors spawn much quicker, are cheaper, can make fun of all destroyers that have loooong respawn and repair… fly quick to them kill them, return to normal game… and laugh. We had that was not enough fun?? It is the joke that most effectively destroyers can die from smallest ship. Against a Destroyer you send a Destroyer - think about it!

There must be a way skill will come in against uber-CO in close combat for destroyer players At least a chance to stop a plasma arc from killing you with an effective tool that helps!! In my Phoenix frigate with 3 Phoenix drones (that can be switched from attack mode to repair mode and reverse) I can still be killed byinterceptors but not 100% - even by skilled players! Thats what I like about them - fairness!

P.S.: I see that there are gunships as well … hope my heavy repair drones will be an even strong opponent for them as well?

Covert ops aren’t some crazy op ship that is good against everything, right now they have to take an AWFUL module (plasma arc) in order to counter ONE type of ship (destroyers), which makes them worse against all other ships. They are a very narrow class, only really good at capturing beacons and killing destroyers.

Who cares about the size of the ship that is killing you, destroyers are still great against all the other ship types at range. If you care so much about realism, large ships in real navies were sunk by mines, submarines and aircraft much more than by other large ships - not that this has anything to do with ships in this game.

[3027279]

It is funny to see people say it should take teamwork to kill destroyers but the moment they are in a situation where teamwork is needed (protecting a destroyer from covert ops) they complain so much. Teamwork is great as long as it’s everyone else having to do the teamwork…

[39481814]

I don’t think promoting defensive/passive players (or using teamwork to defend dessys) will be good for this game. Because a stealthy attack from a covop don’t give too much time to react.

 

[13427972]

52 minutes ago, Cr0 said:

Covert ops aren’t some crazy op ship that is good against everything, right now they have to take an AWFUL module (plasma arc)…

WAIT a sec! I love circle-plasma arc guys in fast fed fighters or empire strafe ceptors! I know it’s silly and quite useless, but when you do that, it’s kinda only to prove a point:

Don’t sc*ew with me

[19315649]

Calm down they will be great again when, when the alien destros come  They’ll probably get a module what decrease the close range damage with 300%. Until that we can enjoy the balanced destros