LRF rework

Suggestions Balance
21

Tillo, everything you have said comes with a huge, huge caveat; it applies only if the LRF pilot is smart enough to go against what the Devs are telling him to do.

 

You cannot take the actions of a few skilled players and claim that’s how everyone uses the class, so it’s fine. It’s not. You know the LRF is deadly in the second line. I know it’s deadly in the second line. Hell, it can even be deadly in the front line if well supported and you choose your targets. However, the vast majority of LRF are not on the second line. They are at the very back, doing xxxx all.

 

The LRF has to be radically redesigned to FORCE these morons to move up with everyone else and play an active role.

22

So YOU really want next nerf coz nabs don’t know how to use something?

Like it was with sharpnel…

23

So YOU really want next nerf coz nabs don’t know how to use something?

Like it was with sharpnel…

No, I want the class removed because it has a HUGE negative impact on the game, to the point that the vast majority of people using the class are dead weight and might as well disconnect at launch.

24

There’s no need to delete this class, they are iconic type of ships, they were one of the reason why I started playing the game a year ago.
People actually brings snipers because they are working in T1/T2 and when they reach T3 they think it will be the same. (And no.)
I would nerf them more in T1/T2 so new players wouldn’t want to fly them that frequently and they would have forced to learn how to play them.
And buff the Jericho LRFs in T3, because they useless.

25

It is the only class that actively discourages playing to objectives.

 

It is a very selfish class in that it encourages the pilot to focus on a high killscore rather than supporting the team.

It’s not like removing all LRFs would increase your overall win/loss ratio.

Besides, statistics and synergy gains are more than enough to discourage playing for objectives.

26

 

It’s not like removing all LRFs would increase your overall win/loss ratio.

 

Nice logical fallacy. This is about teamwork, not personal stats.

 

The LRF is the only class in this entire game that encourages a lone-wolf mentality at the expense of the team. 

 

The only module they have that counts as a ‘team’ module is the IR Pulsar as it keeps enemies from locking onto their teammates, but even that doesn’t work if the LRF is all alone at the back and no-one is targeting him. Every other active module is either used to buff their long range weapons or help them repair/escape.

 

In most land-based games, a sniper class works great. In a space shooter with objectives, it’s an anchor that pulls the rest of the team down.

 

 

If the Developers want a long-range frigate so badly, get rid of the 12K-range immobilizing LRF specials and the silly EM cloak (and the RT while you’re at it), and bring back the Long Range Laser Cannons from pre 0.8 as an LRF exclusive weapon and encourage them to use those 6 main guns from the second line of battle while moving in formation with their team.

27

It is the only class that actively discourages playing to objectives.

That is what has to be fixed, and the only way to do that is to remove the sniping capacity from the ship.

Haha, hell no. Discourages to play for objectives ? I have easily 4+ beacons captured with it when I want.

You are invisible even in short range (Hide against an asteroid).You have just a SO HIGH firepower. IR pulsars, minefields.

And now that we have RT, LRF are slower recons (That drain shield with guns :00555: ) with big mines.

 

LRF are like gunships and covert ops. They don’t care about objectives. But  luckily, gunships and covert ops are shorter range, so sometimes they try to capture beacons when not trying to kill everything.

 

If a player want to pew pew, you can have 12 recons in both side, the result will be the same : pew pew.

 

In fact, the LRF problem is that they are just slow as hell. Now that they have RT and become more present on the field because they can escape, they are feared. You can remove the special and RT if you want. LRF’s aces won’t capture a beacon because they are likely to die.

 

It’s the same with engineers, if you look closely. Unless they are safe, they won’t try to capture a beacon and shot at range. And you know that an ace engi in mid range will just : Don’t have heals; miss their shot with guns; die in a second.

Useless ? YES.

At least they try ? LRF newbs try too.

 

 

The only problem when there’s too much LRF in a fight is that the team looks less dangerous, so the opposing team rush-in a bit more comfortable, but the difficulty is around the same.

28

 

If the Developers want a long-range frigate so badly, get rid of the 12K-range immobilizing LRF specials and the silly EM cloak (and the RT while you’re at it), and bring back the Long Range Laser Cannons from pre 0.8 as an LRF exclusive weapon and encourage them to use those 6 main guns from the second line of battle while moving in formation with their team.

It is easy with most LRF to have 8k or 9k range with the main guns. In fact the standard LRF fit in SQ has range over 7km.

29

It’s the same with engineers, if you look closely. Unless they are safe, they won’t try to capture a beacon and shot at range. And you know that an ace engi in mid range will just : Don’t have heals; miss their shot with guns; die in a second.

Useless ? YES.

At least they try ? LRF newbs try too.

LRF newbs don’t try. Ever.

 

I realised what the real issue here is with the LRF. The Devs justify its inclusion because in “similar” games there are always sniper classes and they aren’t an issue there.

 

But let’s look at a few aspects of similar games; first and third person shooters. For the sake of shorthand I will use Call of Duty, but it does equally apply to other games like Space Marine or Gears of War.

 

First, the maps. Star Conflict’s relative map size (ie: how long it takes you to travel the map) is very large. This is especially true for slower ships. As such, it is much easier to establish map control, as outflanking is more easily spotted and requires the team to give up on survivability in the centre for longer periods.

Combined with that is the fact that faster ships have less damage output, which in turn makes ambushes harder. In CoD, a single outflanking player can potentially kill the entire enemy team in a single rush. At best, an outflanking CovOps will kill 1-2. Clearly, the lone wolf capabilities in Star Conflict are noticeably reduced.

What does this mean? It means that the power of long-range firepower is artificially increased. Slower speeds mean your range advantage lasts longer, and reduced stopping power means allies can come to your aid in time if counter-attacked.

 

Next, let’s talk range. In many of these games, max range is essentially infinite, limited only by spread. In theory, a shotgun and a sniper rifle have the same range, but the former’s high spread means it quickly becomes useless. This is important for balance as it means that players always have potential to counter-snipe; the sniper rifle simply has the scope advantage.

Here, that’s not true. The Disintegrator can have a 3x range advantage or more over its target. Jerry Torps need to be closer, but also don’t require line of sight. Either way, both snipers are protected by a hard range cap that guarantees no retaliatory fire.

These factors ensure that the LRF is a broken build; a ship that cannot be properly countered without an LRF of your own. Slow ships cannot counter at all; fast ships can only counter if the LRF is not escorted, or is not so far back that the counter-ship itself will be unable to reach it.

 

So the LRF isn’t just broken in the hands of a bad player; it’s also broken in the hands of a good player, especially with RT equipped.

30

LRF newbs don’t try. Ever.

 

I realised what the real issue here is with the LRF. The Devs justify its inclusion because in “similar” games there are always sniper classes and they aren’t an issue there.

 

But let’s look at a few aspects of similar games; first and third person shooters. For the sake of shorthand I will use Call of Duty, but it does equally apply to other games like Space Marine or Gears of War.

 

First, the maps. Star Conflict’s relative map size (ie: how long it takes you to travel the map) is very large. This is especially true for slower ships. As such, it is much easier to establish map control, as outflanking is more easily spotted and requires the team to give up on survivability in the centre for longer periods.

Combined with that is the fact that faster ships have less damage output, which in turn makes ambushes harder. In CoD, a single outflanking player can potentially kill the entire enemy team in a single rush. At best, an outflanking CovOps will kill 1-2. Clearly, the lone wolf capabilities in Star Conflict are noticeably reduced.

What does this mean? It means that the power of long-range firepower is artificially increased. Slower speeds mean your range advantage lasts longer, and reduced stopping power means allies can come to your aid in time if counter-attacked.

 

Next, let’s talk range. In many of these games, max range is essentially infinite, limited only by spread. In theory, a shotgun and a sniper rifle have the same range, but the former’s high spread means it quickly becomes useless. This is important for balance as it means that players always have potential to counter-snipe; the sniper rifle simply has the scope advantage.

Here, that’s not true. The Disintegrator can have a 3x range advantage or more over its target. Jerry Torps need to be closer, but also don’t require line of sight. Either way, both snipers are protected by a hard range cap that guarantees no retaliatory fire.

These factors ensure that the LRF is a broken build; a ship that cannot be properly countered without an LRF of your own. Slow ships cannot counter at all; fast ships can only counter if the LRF is not escorted, or is not so far back that the counter-ship itself will be unable to reach it.

 

So the LRF isn’t just broken in the hands of a bad player; it’s also broken in the hands of a good player, especially with RT equipped.

Sometimes I think you and me are playing different games. Until the introduction of RT, there were so many LRF counters it was ridiculous. Cov ops, warping recons with mines, long range gunships, other LRFs…

 

Now with the RT, the problem is that you can try to get close, or start firing at them, but at soon as they are in danger, they warp out and you have to travel another 5000 m under heavy fire with a ceptor, or they just go out of range if you are using LRFs or long range builds.

 

That is the problem. Even the EM scattering field is OK if you remove the RT.

31

So today Akaurl replied that they are not planning in removing the reverse thruster. I hope they won’t try to “balance” the class around the new found toy, when it was already balanced without it.

32

Removing it is extreme. It is an interesting addition to the game i guess, and would be ok if heavily nerfed. 

33

It is not interesting. Giving LRF a “get out of everything free” card doesn’t do anything but ruin everyone else’s experience.

Devs just aren’t man enough to admit they are wrong.

34

Removing it is extreme. It is an interesting addition to the game i guess, and would be ok if heavily nerfed. 

 

Nerf it to oblivion, a la engie warp gate style. 

 

Too lazy to quote and comment individually, so I’ll just keep things short and sweet. IMO, LRFs were fine without RT, and nobody needs a get-out-of-jail-free card. If you get caught out of position, blame yourself. 

 

That said, JLRFs do feel quite a bit squishier. But then again, everything’s squishy as compared to the Imperial version. 

35

Nerf it to oblivion, a la engie warp gate style. 

 

Too lazy to quote and comment individually, so I’ll just keep things short and sweet. IMO, LRFs were fine without RT, and nobody needs a get-out-of-jail-free card. If you get caught out of position, blame yourself. 

 

That said, JLRFs do feel quite a bit squishier. But then again, everything’s squishy as compared to the Imperial version. 

 

 

I agree with you 100 %

 

As the saying goes Jericho LRF is " treated like a Red-head Step-child" 

36

Allready LRF ACES!! new build for being more lame. Aside from the well know RT + EM scattering field + long range weapons, I advice you to fit the emergency barrier so you don’t have to think when you need to press the magic button. Just do it when the green thing spawns and you are at 10% health. Drop mines and survive to fight another day. Just remember to fire a tachyon torpedo at the poor fool that tried to kill you, to add insult to the injury.

 

Tier 5 at this moment is 5vs5 3 or 4 LRF per side and a lone or two fools flying other thing (usually guards and engineers)

 

But they are not planning to remove the reverse thrusters because reasons.

 

Ok, we will see how much till this is again the frigball vs frigball boring stuff with leapfrogging frigates everywhere.

 

I’m fed up. 5 games at T5, an average of 60% of teams were made by LRFs, all with said combination (except mine, I’m the fool it seems)

37

So today Akaurl replied that they are not planning in removing the reverse thruster. I hope they won’t try to “balance” the class around the new found toy, when it was already balanced without it.

 

Looks like Desintegrator will get reduced firerate. 

 

kek

38

Looks like Desintegrator will get reduced firerate.

kek

Yes, that will fix the problem… Mostly for the mauler which is doing so well because of the desintegrator…

39

Whatever, LRF is great… My own can fly 10000m/s over 25km!

Yes, i mean this serious.

40

Nice logical fallacy. This is about teamwork, not personal stats.

Most complaints about LRF overuse boil down to ‘more teamwork = winning the match’, so my response was based on that viewpoint.

If you are being completely serious about wanting more teamwork, LRF overuse is only a symptom of the real problems to be fixed.

1)Currently, teamwork doesn’t necessarily guarantee better rewards.

  1. Players are not rewarded for merely attempting to complete objectives; they must be successful. Therefore, the only absolutely sure way to earn a reward is through kills/assists.

  2. For newer or even intermediate players, capturing a beacon oftentimes ends up being similar to a zergling rush, at best, or a swarm attracted to a bug zapper, at worst. There is minimal to no entertainment value for participating in these situations.

  3. The ideal situation of finding a losing match to be highly entertaining happens so rarely that it is unrealistic to ever expect, so most players rely on rewards to provide the ‘fun’ that they are looking for.