Healing is overpowered

“Not necessarily true, since my computer is harder to repair than my chair despite being a lot smaller”

You comparing a hight tech computer with a old age chair? Try compare a f15 with a  E-3 Sentry and lets see whoo will be reapired fist.

 

“Can you give a *gameplay* reason for why engineering modules should benefit interceptors 4 times as much as frigates?”

1-They not benefit the interceptor, they repair with the same rate who everyone.

2-Interceptor die fast under continous fire, then he will be reapired fast under repair aura.

3-Because you is a frigate player raging about a interceptor you cant kill because you use laser and he keep the heal dancing.

 

Interceptor is easy enoug to kill (sad), if you cant do this is because he is smart enough to use all suport avaliable, as you should do too.

“Can you give a *gameplay* reason for why engineering modules should benefit interceptors 4 times as much as frigates?”

1-They not benefit the interceptor, they repair with the same rate who everyone.

2-Interceptor die fast under continous fire, then he will be reapired fast under repair aura.

3-Because you is a frigate player raging about a interceptor you cant kill because you use laser and he keep the heal dancing.

 

  1. An interceptor gets 4x the % of his HP back every second compared to a frigate. And you know that’s what I meant. Playing with definitions is not constructive.

  2. Oh dear. Despite me pre-empting this argument you still trot it out. If an interceptor *needs* massive healing to be viable then you’re admitting it’s not viable without an engineer. You’re plastering one balance issue over another instead of fixing the root cause of the problem - baseline interceptor survivability.

  3. Actually I’ve spent the last week mostly flying recon interceptors and am tired of stalemates with other interceptors because we can’t kill each other. Not that it matters what I fly; I’m guessing the phrase “ad hominem” means nothing to you.

As far as I’m concerned the Interceptor should be underpowered in the hands of an unskilled pilot!

 

Games benefit from having things that allow all skill levels to take part. Engineering Frigates and Command Fighters are the “newbie friendly” ships in this game; all you need to do to get a good score in one of those ships is to stay close to other people, and your buff assists will do the rest.

 

However, the Interceptors by and large are harder ships to fly, and the harder the ship is to use properly the more powerful it should be.

 

Note that I am not suggesting that because an Inty is twice as hard to use, it should be twice as good. Far from it. Let’s try to do this in a table of sorts…

 

Let’s assume the following applies to the Engineering Frigate:

Effort In: 2/10

Power Out: 6/10.

 

In other words, you can achieve the Engineer’s full potential with very little effort. Next ship!

 

Command Fighter:

Effort In: 4/10

Power Out: 7/10.

 

So, for twice as much effort, you get a 1/6th power increase over the Engineering Frigate. Seems unfair, doesn’t it? Well it’s not - it means that a less experienced player in an Engineering Frigate can still hold his own as opposed to being obliterated.

 

Moving on… let’s pick an Inty at random here.

 

ECM Interceptor:

Effort In: 8/10

Power Out: 8/10.

 

See the pattern here? Huge amount of effort for relatively little power boost. However, going by these metrics an Interceptor pilot flying as well as the ship allows has a 33% advantage over an Engineering Frigate doing the same. Thus, the “pro” Interceptor should win more often out of the two. He has to work harder for his victories, and even a relatively unskilled Engineer Frigate might still get lucky and kill him, but he cannot render the game unplayable for the newbie pilot and he has to push himself hard to get that advantage.

 

This method keeps both ends of the scale happy. The rookies who stick with easy to fly ships can make a difference and feel like they actually matter. The pros can fly ships that will test them to their limits, but will reward them for the effort.

 

However, this is always going to make balancing things tricky - if the Interceptors are intended only for the best of the best, then its going to result in a lot of less able pilots complaining they are underpowered.

Weird I run an engy frigate, its a prioty target, and gets sniper fire, and every thing else killing it first, to me running one in T2 is a pain in the but because most people focus them first. In fact I read another beginner thread somewhere that listed them as kill on sight. Plus the people in that are using lazzers… I get the least amount of kills with those, you need good dps to kill one, like a gunship with rapid fire plasma on overdrive, or a sniper dropping massive hits to soften it up for the brawlers. You don’t attack a tank in other games with another support class expecting him to fall dead do you? In essence in the RPG world these are paladins, they take one heck of a beating, and can heal, aura there teams, you don’t kill them with tickle fights, you get the glass cannons, and the burst dps guys on them while the average classes deal with using there abilities.

 

Its a frigate not an interceptor, it suppose to be hard, all the old rage quitters rage about how bad the engys got nerfed and how “they lost another player” like that will matter when it goes live and 10k new players show up who were smart enough to go, “that looks nice, eww beta, I will wait for it to be done and save myself the grief.” The answer to every problem isn’t nerf, this isn’t a US gym class where if you feelings get hurt we have to dumb it down so every kid gets to feel like a winner. Just like in real life you adapt first, then after logging in 10-20 hours of soul searching trying new tricks out, then you cry it can’t be done, while some group giggles as they figured it out in 5 hours of testing, and didn’t say anything.

 

Oh and how about using a support ship like the engy as the answer? In most MMOs if you can heal, there are guys who do it. Not every one can be John Wayne, or Rambo and solo everything. its a team game even while pugging a healer is a must have in any team play. Heck go to a BG in an RPG and see who wins its the guys with the best healers, and when and only when there is no good healers its who has the best dpsers. There are so many options in this game with roles, ECM, tacklers, gunships, you get even a half of them mixed together, and you got a killer make up to kill something.

As far as I’m concerned the Interceptor should be underpowered in the hands of an unskilled pilot!

 

Games benefit from having things that allow all skill levels to take part. Engineering Frigates and Command Fighters are the “newbie friendly” ships in this game; all you need to do to get a good score in one of those ships is to stay close to other people, and your buff assists will do the rest.

 

However, the Interceptors by and large are harder ships to fly, and the harder the ship is to use properly the more powerful it should be.

 

Note that I am not suggesting that because an Inty is twice as hard to use, it should be twice as good. Far from it. Let’s try to do this in a table of sorts…

 

Let’s assume the following applies to the Engineering Frigate:

Effort In: 2/10

Power Out: 6/10.

 

In other words, you can achieve the Engineer’s full potential with very little effort. Next ship!

 

Command Fighter:

Effort In: 4/10

Power Out: 7/10.

 

So, for twice as much effort, you get a 1/6th power increase over the Engineering Frigate. Seems unfair, doesn’t it? Well it’s not - it means that a less experienced player in an Engineering Frigate can still hold his own as opposed to being obliterated.

 

Moving on… let’s pick an Inty at random here.

 

ECM Interceptor:

Effort In: 8/10

Power Out: 8/10.

 

See the pattern here? Huge amount of effort for relatively little power boost. However, going by these metrics an Interceptor pilot flying as well as the ship allows has a 33% advantage over an Engineering Frigate doing the same. Thus, the “pro” Interceptor should win more often out of the two. He has to work harder for his victories, and even a relatively unskilled Engineer Frigate might still get lucky and kill him, but he cannot render the game unplayable for the newbie pilot and he has to push himself hard to get that advantage.

 

This method keeps both ends of the scale happy. The rookies who stick with easy to fly ships can make a difference and feel like they actually matter. The pros can fly ships that will test them to their limits, but will reward them for the effort.

 

However, this is always going to make balancing things tricky - if the Interceptors are intended only for the best of the best, then its going to result in a lot of less able pilots complaining they are underpowered.

Well, pardon me not knowing those “stats” you pull off from no where.

 

In my opinion, Interceptor, Covert Ops in particular in T2 takes minimal effort and skill to butcher the opposing force, be it fighter or frigate. They are very often the main front line ship, that actually stand a survival chance. I own a Swift Mk. III and keeping it alive is the most simple task I have ever tried.

 

Engi frigate in T2 is extremely fragile compared to my T3 engi, that will need focusing to take down due to the large increase on modules and modules slots that is made available in T3.

 

Healing in current from is no mean overpowered, but does greatly improve the combat ability of the already powerful Interceptors further. The increased healing percent per tick compared to bigger ships means point capping and tanking is very much an interceptor’s job as much as a guard’s job with the poor fighters unable to contribute as much as they should.

 

In short healing is

 

Very strong when put on an interceptor because of the percentage healed.

 

Weak on fighter because of poorer speed and the small increase in survivability relative to the speed lost.

 

Just right on frigate with their overall higher resist in general. (healing Guards not long range)

 

 

It is rather sad when you are unable to kill an interceptor without landing big alpha strikes as they will simply heal back to full strength in a tiny amount of time.

 

In T3 everything changes, healing and other aura buff is vital to success and teamwork is everywhere due to large amount of 4 man squads from major corps dominating. A well organized premade of 4 in a team of 10 or less is simply not what I call a pub game. That is nearly half the team.

I’m just going to steer this back on topic.

 

Healing is and isn’t overpowered.

 

You’re all regarding healing power across all Tiers.

 

Stop it.

 

T2

In Tier 2, healing ATM (since the 0.8.3 update) is brilliant. With the range extension, I don’t feel my aura is too restricted to be useless or too wide to be an answer to everyone’s damage troubles. I can sit a nice 3km away (not too far, not too close) so my aura will cover about 500m beyond that beacon I’m looking at. I use my hail plasmas to take high-damage, but slow firing potshots at stray ships or ones that need softening up, and I try to avoid kill stealing as that ship’s death rightfully belongs to the guy who first locked it.

 

T3

This is where your problems are. With the addition of remote heals, frigate clustering comes into play, and there are very few ways to counter them aside from mass Cov Ops nuking/Plasma Arcing. Mass healing (nanodrone cloud and mass shield) are often forsaken or replaced with remote healing due to the high amounts of health it can restore in just 3 seconds.

 

I’ve said it a dozen times before, so I’ll say it again. My list of improvements for healing are as follows:

  1. Convert all healing to percentage based.
  2. Make self-healing more efficient.
  3. Make the remote heals short ranged and with slightly less healing capability than they have now.
  4. Remove remote healing altogether.
  5. Add the following module:

HAZARD Virus  [V2.0]

ECM Module

Range: 1800m

CD: 80 seconds

Effect: Infects the target with the HAZARD virus. The HAZARD virus prevents the target from using restoration modules and prevents healing altogether. This includes the Regenerative Hull Ship Modifier, the Mass Shield Generator, the Nanodrone Cloud, and the Remote Hull Repair/Shield Generator. Natural shield regeneration is left untouched.

An infected target will spread their infection over a 1500m radius to any ships (friendly, hostile or you) that remain within that radius for 8 seconds. The duration of the effect depends on the size of the target - larger targets will be infected for longer. However, if a target has a healing aura active, the virus will spread over the radius of the healing aura instead. Using a remote healing module when infected will immediately apply the virus to the target.

@JasanOuinn: this should be true, intis should be harder to play, currently at least the covert ops are not!

even unskilled pilots can score better in such a ship than playing any of the “easy” classes.

 

you just have to activate orion and plasma arc and you do such an insane damage… if that doesn’t kill the enemy you can still suicide.

other inti classes are aso kinda op, i was doing some sparring 1vs1 and i had to find out that you stand close to 0 chance in a gunship vs. an ecm… wth? after losing 2 or 3 times i switched to coverts ops and then i just won every 1vs1… it was SO easy… a gunship is purely focussed on killing, i was even having an (the best imo, sniper rail + spreadmods) anti inti loadout equiped but still… the covert ops just does the job 10x better (skilled players, NOT pub fails who don’t know how to play).

 

in pub games the gunships work a lot better, but only because the inti pilots you face are bad. they often score very well even if they bad pilots. i did realise that covert ops are strong but i did not realise that they are THAT strong. lots of unskilled covert ops might make you think the class is ok, but it really isn’t. i can give you some 1vs1 if you want, you will be surprised… maybe you can win with a tackler… maybe… but i wouldn’t be to sure about that, you can still cloak and evade in the cov ops and prevent the enemy from using the f module with the plasma web.

 

@topic: heals in t2 seem fine to me, maybe the healing rate is a bit to high but the range is totally fine. especailly covert ops with heals are hard to deal with.

% heals or ship size based heals sound like a fine idea to me but so far i like the changes. i can’t comment about t3 much, a rarely play it but i have seen some combat recon frigball matches where it ends with 7-6 after 15 minutes, all players were constantly fighting but rarely anything ever died… so i would say it still seems unbalanced to me. 

I’ll bite:

 

  1. Plasma arc requires to you aim nose of your ship at the enemy for 3 seconds while keeping enemy within 300m. That is not easy by any stretch of imagination. In fact, it’s pretty much impossible against a good player in a frigate, who will dodge at least a few ticks. Fighters and interceptors who get killed by it are usually either double teamed by ECM and CO with timed stasis or utterly horrible. I find latter scenario to be far more common, but claiming that a bad interceptor pilot will get a lot of damage with plasma arc is absurd.

 

  1. Orion module gives you firepower that is marginally better than that of a command fighter or a tackler and equal (no overdrive) to vastly inferior (overdrive) to that of a gunship. Calling it “overpowered” is akin to calling all quad gun ships overpowered.

 

  1. Suicide gives kill points to whoever damaged suicider last and assist points to everyone who hit him or assisted anyone who hit him in the last 15 seconds. Outside of a few fringe cases such as team rush on the captain who picked a light ship, suicide is not really a viable module choice. Frankly, I woulnd’t mind removal of said module (in spite of the fact that I have a purple version of it) because it promotes a specific type of bad play (CR meat rush) in squads that I really do not enjoy playing against.

orion mod: well having the same firepower as a fighter in an inti which can deal even more damage with all the mods isn’t fine in my book. with an inti you can get into a good shoting position rather easyly compared to a fighter. you can also charge weapons and then use orion mod to get a max efficiency.

 

frig used to have 6 guns, by your logic this would be equal to an overdrive gunship, thus making it useless. is a gunship useless? nope… were the pre 8.0 frigs op? nope…

 

plasma arc: yes i won’t take the full damage of plasma arc, but i will be hit at last for a short period of time which is enough to deal 3-5k dmg to a frig. this is nothing an interceptor should be able to do. if you are up against a good player you will take even more damage. my point is: covert ops is strong even played by bad players and it is op if played by good ones. if you can evade that mod so easyly in a firg, the inti pilot is doing it wrong…

 

sucide: oh i am just about to lose a fight? let’s make him die a pointless death! he deserves it doesn’t he?.. this takes away quite a big part of skill, combined with plasma arc this leads to serios issues. not to mention combat recon… and detonation

Engineering ships should not be able to heal themselves using the group modules. This would fix engineering ships.

 

No, no, no.

 

The game is balanced so that the DPS of any ship attacking the Engineering frigate (provides you didn’t set your ship up like a tard) outdoes the healing that the Engineer can produce. Combine this with people actually bothering to use any form of tactics in combat and you should be able to take them down just fine.

 

The problem is with players not knowing how to prioritise targets and make use of the cooldowns and weaknesses of their opposition. If you take away the self-healing capabilities of the Engineer, they have zero sustainability in an engagement. If anything, ships already go down too easily as it is right now.

 

TL;DR: L2P.

orion mod: well having the same firepower as a fighter in an inti which can deal even more damage with all the mods isn’t fine in my book. with an inti you can get into a good shoting position rather easyly compared to a fighter. you can also charge weapons and then use orion mod to get a max efficiency.

 

frig used to have 6 guns, by your logic this would be equal to an overdrive gunship, thus making it useless. is a gunship useless? nope… were the pre 8.0 frigs op? nope…

 

plasma arc: yes i won’t take the full damage of plasma arc, but i will be hit at last for a short period of time which is enough to deal 3-5k dmg to a frig. this is nothing an interceptor should be able to do. if you are up against a good player you will take even more damage. my point is: covert ops is strong even played by bad players and it is op if played by good ones. if you can evade that mod so easyly in a firg, the inti pilot is doing it wrong…

 

sucide: oh i am just about to lose a fight? let’s make him die a pointless death! he deserves it doesn’t he?.. this takes away quite a big part of skill, combined with plasma arc this leads to serios issues. not to mention combat recon… and detonation

  1. Having same firepower for 7 seconds is fine. You make it sound like it’s always on.

a. Gunships vs frigates comparison is invalid for reasons of speed. Gunship has greater speed and maneuverability during overdrive then interceptor. Most fighters are maneuverable enough to be able to avoid incoming fire well enough. Frigates by their nature are ships that lack ability to bring their main guns to bear on any fast targets outside their immediate frontal cone. Fighters and interceptors do not have this problem by design and are therefore comparable.

  1. You are contradicting yourself. Plasma arc is high skill, high risk, high reward weapon. A bad player will either miss it entirely, or misjudge the firing window and kill himself.

  2. No comment. I made my thoughts on kamikaze module clear.

Hydra 2

 

Shields: 8,869

Resists: 50/-10/20

Regen: 106/s

Mass Shield Mill: 190/s

Effective Min Shield HP/s: 266.4

 

Hull: 15,190

Resists: 45/55/61

Nano could MK 3: 163/s

Effective Min Hull HP/s: 236.35

 

Min Required Damage to cause hull damage: 502.75/s

 

The trouble is that this requires two damage types at the same, which is not possible.  In this situation, the best damage type to use to kill this frigate is EM, requiring 519/s to cause hull damage even though this is not the weakest hull resist as KIN would require 680.35/s…

 

Unless I am missing something with the shield regeneration mechanic, this can easily get out of had when you toss in +20 hull from T1 implant I don’t use, or +35 Hull / +26 Shield from a Mk 3 / Mill command ship.  Can also switch from +20 shield to +25% shield regen, but that needs maths I didn’t do yet.

 

So if we are 80/90/96 and 76/16/46 with the same regen:

 

Min eShield/s: 343.36/s

Min eHull/s: 293.4

 

Min Dmg Required: 636.76/s

Min EM Dmg: 653.06/s

MIn Kin Dmg: 814.36/s

 

4x T2 Mk 1 Rapid Plasma have to hit 45% of shots to cause hull damage.

4x T2 Mk 1 Stab Railguns are unable to damage the hull…

4x T2 Mk 1 Assault Railguns have to hit 71% of shots to cause hull damage.

 

Anyone who has played eve will quickly see this a passive drake on-top of a remote rep buffer armor tank…

With some tweaking some more Experimental drops, I could probably make an Eng frigate immune to all interceptor main weapons.

 

I don’t even want to think about the higher tier ships…

T3 engineers and guards are generally tanking ECM, Recon, tacklers, command.

With some tweaking some more Experimental drops, I could probably make an Eng frigate immune to all interceptor main weapons.

 

I don’t even want to think about the higher tier ships…

While you can’t make them fully immune, properly specced Cerberus-2 is basically immortal to interceptor fire once you get its shields off and start hitting hull. It will outregen damage of any two guns once both hull and shield regen start to work.

Anyone who has played eve will quickly see this a passive drake on-top of a remote rep buffer armor tank…

With some tweaking some more Experimental drops, I could probably make an Eng frigate immune to all interceptor main weapons.

Yep, and everyone hates the Drake - those against it hate the tank it poses, those in it hate the low dps it squeezes; it’s nothing more than a meatshield. Give it an extra role (like healing) = immortal and useful.

And they are already immune to inty weapons, all you need is the right mods (T3).