Yeah, because all those other modules that affect every other ship is just a strength too far also.
that’s called team composition. plus you can still focus fire them down, drain their energy, tackle them, spam them with missiles… etc…
there should be tactical options like energy denial for engi/command… just needs tweaks…
not this IDDQD nonsense…
plus as i said, if you make it just change one disable (ion) to 1-2 second duration or make it disable offensive modules only (slowing fields, dps boosters, tackles, other ecms, pulsars, etc…) and take out stasis and change the function of metastable… and also provide an activation cost for active modules… thatll fix all that garbage.
Just now, I got a T3 experimental Ion Emitter module to go along with my experimental Stasis Generator. Both combined, assuming no implants or modules to counter effects, 12.5 seconds. Since energy drainer only affects modules and afterburners, it doesn’t really count. Add in the 2 seconds for the Metastable, that’s 14.5 seconds in ideal circumstances. Those circumstances including “one Mississippi, two Mississippi” aren’t going to happen. Don’t forget those 14.5 seconds include the 6 seconds the ECM’s being a target and not moving.
I’m not gloating, just happy.
I’ve also noticed more module loot, and some for T3. Maybe the devs noticed my comment that when I reach T4, I’ll be all green.
one more thing i should add. in order for energy denial to work as intended, each active module should have an initial activation cost. just like in rpgs - enchantments/effects that drain energy also cost a small amount of energy to use.
this is because it provides a tactical tradeoff. a decision has to be made whether to activate the module with it’s associate cost and energy drain, once you are already low on energy.
some modules had their energy consumption tweak after that and cap pool / regen changed here and there on certain ships but the biggest thing Dev missed was adding activation cost on the other modules (i think activation cost got added to one or two, can’t remember - lazy to check patch notes)
that’s 14.5 seconds in ideal circumstances. Those circumstances including “one Mississippi, two Mississippi” aren’t going to happen.
in fact, the circumstance are MORE than ideal, since you don’t need to keep the target perma disable. just when they are a threat to you. so that 12.5 seconds is actually 20+ seconds…
1. Define “break”
2. It was, when all frigates had 3 sets of guns.
3. Define.
4. This is the basic answer. ^ And it does not “Take Down Any Unit”
already defined in the thread. basically makes everything useless, and targets sitting ducks.
self-explanatory: interceptors counter frigates, but certain interceptors would be better suited to counter different units/frigates/command units.
actually, if you can aim… yes it does… except guards, pretty much.
say in 6 v 6
a broken team say made up of
5 x ECM
1 x LRF
Will totally pawn every other 6 man team almost all the time say … 75% success rate ?
rofl… this methodology is totally flawed… :\ it’s like saying having a team of 6 LRFs will completely own everyone lmao.
also, after more testing with LRF, on some maps like the ice map, there is almost no line of sight. on those maps, obviously LRF isn’t your best choice, but on open maps, they are OP. and that’s why they need fixing.
if the map doesn’t suit LRF, don’t play LRF… don’t just buff the damage to compensate, then it breaks open maps, where it in fact shows how OP this thing is.
Lets work with Realistic capture the beacons 4 vs 4 no healers just to start.
4v4 is pretty boring. games should probably be balanced for 8-12 players, which is the average.
although you still have to balance small squad battles to some regard, but in the end itll be impossible, because of the range of units… more than 4 units…
Fleet battles are made up of multiple small engagements that repeat over and over.
1v1 is inaccurate due to the dependence of one ship to one another
2v2 is only reflective of CQC and results are skewed in awkward 2 ship combos that rely on tactical deployment say on certain weapons needing doubling up to be effective like heavy lasers (old) or Coil Mortar / Blaster and LRF + any other ship combo
3v3 has pilot skill getting in the way as most encounters of this type ends up being very close
4v4 is more well-rounded as outcomes are more obvious
any bigger and you have fleet strategy coming into play which does not exist outside of top corp tournaments. which are … once a month affairs ?
if you watch matches from afar you’ll see these 4v3’s 3v2’s 2v1’s going on all the time in clusters all over the map. And I find it interesting that certain combos consistently come out on top in those. None of which have a pure ECM wing dominating in any given engagement. They make a hella contribution on a per ship basis but nothing outstanding that another group of ships can claim not being able to counter / contain.
Take Wolfs 4 ECM vs 2 Guards + 2 Commands scenario above
2 probable outcomes
ECM wins by taking out 2 bases and Guard+Comm squad defending their last base unable to move out without risking instant loss -or-
ECMs engage after taking 2 bases and find out they are being outshot from range (atleast 2 will lose shields by the time they come within striking distance)
atleast 1 will die by focus fire and another by pulsar being cycled.
DPS being handed out (simple aggregate DPS vs Survivability for both sides is good enough an indication) means all ECM modules have 1 use lifecycle except for probably the last ECM alive being able to reactivate for a second (and last) time.
If you repeat that scenario over and over, the ECM wing WILL decide it’s better to stick with taking 2 bases and wait it out as engaging a Tank squad is no guarantee. Either as a group or synch’d individual runs.
so assuming this walk-through is accurate:
Is ECM broken due to the fact that they can consistently win by objectives? - no
Can another combo of ship types tank and outshoot a pure ECM wing? - yes
And if ANYBODY says the 4 ECMs can come in as a pack and cycle their stuns over and over on a single ship one at a time and survive then I honestly have nothing more to contribute lol.
(2 x ECM + 2 x Gunship Singularities maybe - but it’ll be more of a case the singularities dictating play and ECMs playing bodyguard until Guards are out then roles are reversed when its ECM vs Command)
Zero flight skills (flying straight) = Guard advantage
Formation flight allows simultaneous shots (ie. if one ship gets in range, all ships are in range) = no advantage
Here’s me doing a straight up head to head,
8 Guards sitting still waiting for 8 ECMs charging in
I used Neutron Zealot for guards and Stilettoes for ECMs modded numbers based on what I’ve got fitted in hangar currently
Keeping it simple, Guards shooting Positrons and ECMs have Shrapnel strapped on
Chronology is from top to bottom
Time splice between volleys
ECM Stiletto
6,369 shields -10 EM
2,890 hulls 70 EM
shield regen 81/sec
Shrapnel
start shooting range = 1,500m
damage per shot = 1,176 Kinetic
DPS = 1,372 Kinetic
I did make a mistake with Stuns range, it should have come earlier between when ECM group had 4 - 2 ships. Even still I ran the numbers and remaining ECMs were not enough to take out even one Guard.
So:
You can argue that no flight skills assumption gimped the ECM group in this sim. And the zero spread gave too much of an advantage, since Positrons had more opportunities to shoot than Shrapnel (I made that assumption thinking it number of shots fired between the 2 groups were even, it obv was not so…)
You could re run the numbers by assigning a hit probability to Positrons (either arbitrary or assign by range) and roll a die per shot made.
Despite the extreme outcome in the head to head above it does illustrate 3 big points
A. Range is a factor when dealing with ECMs or any interceptors for that matter
B. Focus fire and thinning down the ranks is an investment that pays off when you finally get into CQC
C. Flight competency is a game changer despite claims of dumbing down etc. Especially for the interceptors.
Rate of fire? -> time for each side to blow up a ship.
Formation? guard should stay close, but ECM should not.
Items/build of both side? Hp/shield, weapons damge/hit, those factors are important of course.
I also suggest a 80~90% actual hit for guard side, not 100%. (the hit rate is much lower in actual match, of course)
From my experience, this situation also relies heavily on the actual skills of both side. The more skilled pilots of both side, the more advantage the ECM side has.
420m / sec interceptor speed (grossly rounded down from 427)
positron ROF taken at 50 shots per minute or 1.2 seconds per shot or 504m between shots
Sensor range was not accounted for but actual range is 5,375m ( but more importantly target locking time was not included )
Terrain was open space
Formation (and generally physical coords) were not considered as per assumption (wanted to keep numbers aggregated and manageable)
basically assumption is if 1 ship had range on an enemy ship, all allies have range and ofcourse vice versa
Relevant ship data in second spoiler below .jpg
* purpose of sim is not trying to represent actual flight conditions as that is insurmountably impossible to achieve. but it does give the extreme outline of what is possible in terms of numbers. But more importantly uncover obvious imbalances quickly.
Now if ECM were as OP as it was claimed to be, the sim would show extreme one-sidedness towards that end but evidently it did not. If anything it showed the opposite where Guards on Positrons are decidedly stronger. When you apply human mechanics and observable realities you’d sort of can see how things will sway back towards ECM’s favour before finally looking like it’s all fair (ie. add in flight skills and imperfect aim and terrain opportunities)
@ Rakza - activated pulsar stays active. and only pulsar was taken into account above. more accurately, only the first pulsar pulse was taken into account. inty will be dead by 4th second within pulsar range in any case.
activated pulsar stays active. and only pulsar was taken into account above. more accurately, only the first pulsar pulse was taken into account. inty will be dead by 4th second within pulsar range in any case.
Start by drain energy + energy neutralizing missile and praise the lord.
Little trick against the T2 Guard : Until it’s not a Crus type Q, Flank it and just stay at 1600m. Pewpew it, take a cookie. (works against the alligator C too)
Against a Crus type Q : Stay at 1400m, Use the Hitbox (to compense the spread by attacking) from below. Stay in this huge blind spot, pewpew it, take a second cookie.
Never attack by above ! NEVER ATTACK IN FRONT OF A GUARD !
Now profit. R5 ships can’t use the R6 implants, so they have nothing to compense Frigate’s weapons weakness.
Edit : Stay in the Jericho frig’s butt at T5, WE HAVE A CANNON BELOW OUR SHIPS NOW !
it seems that we shoudl turn every game into LoL, even though it’s not as popular or successful as people claim it is…
in fact, Riot yearly revenue is equivalent to a single large grocery store pretty much… peanuts… tiny company… does lots of advertising tho to make you think otherwise…
can you imagine this being acceptable in any FPS class-based shooter? ie: MW/BF…
“omg dude, he stunned me, i cant move for 12 seconds… omg i can’t shoot now! he hacked my weapon!”… yea pretty much… can you imagine all the rage?
the day they put a weapon like that in, is the day they kill their own game.
The best counter to a guard is Recon. With parasitic remodulator you can tank the pulsar damage while draining their shields. Remember resistances don’t factor in since it’s a 1 for 1 trade of shields from them to you so a recon is the best ship for the job. Once you get their shields down it’s just a matter of time…very few guards build for hull tanking.
Also best 4 man squad:
ECM, ECM, Recon, Engi
The recon can spydrone tacklers and Covert Ops so they can’t sneak up on your engi as well as drain the shields of whoever is your focus target. The 2 ECM’s rotate their disables so you can chain lock down ships…and the engi…heals and tries not to die Also with 2 ECM’s and a Recon beacon caps will be a breeze
This isn’t the best setup for max dps but it allows you to have the mobility to react to attacks on side beacons as well as helping protect your Engi. Basically the Engi is your main source of firepower and should be advancing forward towards the enemy beacons staying behind the interceptors. Once you kill 1 or 2 enemies, go in for a beacon capture while they’re still respawning then move back towards the middle, push to the next beacon, rinse repeat.
The main goal isn’t to actually capture the beacons but force the enemy pilots to come to you to try and stop the capture. Odds are they’ll come in separately and then you can just pick them off one by one.
Also with 2 ECM’s and a Recon beacon caps will be a breeze
