Destroyers in Beacon Matches

101

Yes, but what do you think are the odds that one can keep circling around a destroyer for several minutes without anyone else from enemy team showing up? Thinking about 1v1 scenarios with a destroyer is completely unrealistic.

Which team is losing more time, the one with a single destroyer out of the battle for a minute, or the one which had 4 ships firing at it for a minute?

So you are blaming in a TEAMPLAY that someone can save the destroyer with TEAMPLAY?

The latter depend on the situation, but most likely the team with only 7 players.

You don’t get the point here. With all those totally customizable slots for passives, Destroyers can completely remove their few weaknesses (Look at a speedy antares, it goes as fast as a fed fighter, while keeping its enormous firepower), or enhance even more their strengths (for example, a tanky brave can reach +250k of hull with 60/60/60 resistances).

Hmm, every Long range using its module maybe?

I get the point. Passives is just an excuse. SP ships have this as well. So no point for destroyer.

Even if those ‘speedy’ antares is as fast as a fed fighter(I doubt that they can reach 600m/s+), they would not even be close to the figthers flexibility.

To the tanky brave: Again what can do such a flying brick bring into battle?

To the last: I don’t argue if you make such a flawed argument. Find the error by yourself.

102

So you are blaming in a TEAMPLAY that someone can save the destroyer with TEAMPLAY?

 

You seem to neither get his point. 

 

For example: you are in a covert ops. You see a completely isolated frigate (Let’s say, at least 7km away from the rest of his team). Of course, you use adaptive camo, get near it, and plasma arc it to death while you use orion and missiles. It will probably die in less than 15 seconds, no matter what. 

 

Now, let’s say your enemy is a Brave. You get near him, you knife him, and you destroy all his modules. Still, you deal him less than 1/5 of his health. Also, you have to constantly move, because if you stand still the destroyer is going to obliterate you. 

To kill him with just your main weapon, you’ll probably have to shoot him for more than 40 seconds…

 

Do you understand now? Probably not.

 

I get the point. Passives is just an excuse. SP ships have this as well. So no point for destroyer.

 

The problem isn’t the passive, the problem is the fact that destroyers already have very few weaknesses compared to other ships, so the pilots are able to even further increase their strength. In other ships you have to increase survivability and damage with passives, while in destroyers you already have very good damage output and survivability, so you can either choose to remove completely the other weaknesses (speed and maneuverability, like in the antares case), or increase even more the ship’s strengths (Sybil with over 1000 shield regeneration, Brave with insane tank).

 

The issue here is with the base destroyer stats. 

 

they would not even be close to the figthers flexibility.

 

Oh yeah, because fighters can totally lock down beacons for 30 seconds, constantly deal high damage from +5km, use turrets to automatically hit every every ship that comes near you, shoot fast-moving torpedoes with high range every 7 second, deal 15k damage in 4 seconds while still being 5km away, use drones that repair you for a total of 600 hull/second…

 

To the tanky brave: Again what can do such a flying brick bring into battle?

As I said in another post: you don’t need to be agile when you can shoot stuff from more than 5km of distance. Also, you can use wormhole. And, a Brave is still only a little bit slower than an empire frigate, it isn’t immobile. 

 

And, what if this flying brick is camping a beacon or is the captain in combat recon?

103

You seem to neither get his point.

For example: you are in a covert ops. You see a completely isolated frigate (Let’s say, at least 7km away from the rest of his team). Of course, you use adaptive camo, get near it, and plasma arc it to death while you use orion and missiles. It will probably die in less than 15 seconds, no matter what.

Now, let’s say your enemy is a Brave. You get near him, you knife him, and you destroy all his modules. Still, you deal him less than 1/5 of his health. Also, you have to constantly move, because if you stand still the destroyer is going to obliterate you.

To kill him with just your main weapon, you’ll probably have to shoot him for more than 40 seconds…

Do you understand now? Probably not.

The problem isn’t the passive, the problem is the fact that destroyers already have very few weaknesses compared to other ships, so the pilots are able to even further increase their strength. In other ships you have to increase survivability and damage with passives, while in destroyers you already have very good damage output and survivability, so you can either choose to remove completely the other weaknesses (speed and maneuverability, like in the antares case), or increase even more the ship’s strengths (Sybil with over 1000 shield regeneration, Brave with insane tank).

The issue here is with the base destroyer stats.

Oh yeah, because fighters can totally lock down beacons for 30 seconds, constantly deal high damage from +5km, use turrets to automatically hit every every ship that comes near you, shoot fast-moving torpedoes with high range every 7 second, deal 15k damage in 4 seconds while still being 5km away, use drones that repair you for a total of 600 hull/second…

As I said in another post: you don’t need to be agile when you can shoot stuff from more than 5km of distance. Also, you can use wormhole. And, a Brave is still only a little bit slower than an empire frigate, it isn’t immobile.

And, what if this flying brick is camping a beacon or is the captain in combat recon?

I got your point. That’s what I describe the 1 on 1 Pro Kill. You want an OS insta kill button to kill everything in 1s or less. Now you encounter a ship that hold out for more than 1s and you Q.Q about it. It require now teamwork to bring him with ease down, and THAT is something you don’t want. You are so in your 1 on 1, that you don’t even want a team at all. This is just what YOU want.

If you/your team let a single destroyer deny a beacon for such a long time, you make something really false. ECM is something you know or not? And what you further describe is not possible. Even a destroyer can only have 4 module slots and he have over 7 modules to use from.

And YES you need to be mobile to destroy stuff. But maybe I don’t have sitting ducks everytime in PvP just WAITING for me to kill them like you… Maybe I should make an angry letter to cine to give me such enemy sitting duck-teams.

High damage in 5km range? Against what? Defiler?

Using nonstop modules? With regen setup yes, but this mean other things are way weaker.

4s for 15k damage? Yeah because you don’t see the charge, nor can fly away…

Drones that easily die with explosives.

And nope… fighter don’t have hull/shield booster. Absolutely not.

104

Here we go again…

I got your point. That’s what I describe the 1 on 1 Pro Kill. You want an OS insta kill button to kill everything in 1s or less. Now you encounter a ship that hold out for more than 1s and you Q.Q about it. It require now teamwork to bring him with ease down, and THAT is something you don’t want. You are so in your 1 on 1, that you don’t even want a team at all. This is just what YOU want.
 

 

I don’t want to kill it in 1 second. To me, 15-20s are a fair amount of time to kill an heavy ship. Also, the implications of the fact that you need teamwork to bring one of them down are pretty big. Because, that means Destroyer>every other ship, and 1 Destroyer=2-3 regular ships. This could be fine, but the problem is that a Destroyer has the same weight as every other ship. There’s no penalty in using them. You still have the same amount of people on each team. So if your team composition is 7 regular ships + 1 destroyer and the enemy team composition is 8 regular ships, that means Your Team>Enemy team. 

 

Also, I’m a strategic kind of person, definitely not a lone wolf. Going Leeroy Jenkins with one ship just hurts your team, because if you die, they’ll be in numerical inferiority. That’s why I go completely mad when people just go suicide into the enemy team instead of doing coordinated pushes. 

If you/your team let a single destroyer deny a beacon for such a long time, you make something really false. ECM is something you know or not? And what you further describe is not possible. Even a destroyer can only have 4 module slots and he have over 7 modules to use from.
 

 

ECM shouldn’t be always the answer to everything. 

 

The problem with black hole is that it damages only the enemy team, preventing them to capture a beacon while your team can still do that. Here’s the main problem. 

Also, what I described is perfectly possible. You can use Pyro, Black Hole, Photon, Plasma turret + Repair drones and you can do everything I listed. 

And YES you need to be mobile to destroy stuff. But maybe I don’t have sitting ducks everytime in PvP just WAITING for me to kill them like you… Maybe I should make an angry letter to cine to give me such enemy sitting duck-teams.
 

 

You still don’t get the damn point, do you? Almost all the battles are static. There aren’t huge movements. Of course, interceptors and fighters move around a lot, but always in fixed places, like near a beacon, or around a rock in Team battle and Combat recon. This isn’t a problem when you have huge weapon range. You can sit near a beacon and prevent the enemy ships to come to it, and then, if needed, you can jump to the next one with wormhole. 

 

I’m not talking about people that just stand still and wait for you to kill them. I’m talking about the fact that pilots tend to fight always in the same locations, so you can move to those location and wait them to come. 

High damage in 5km range? Against what? Defiler?

 

You’ve probably never seen a low spread meson/coilgun build…

Using nonstop modules? With regen setup yes, but this mean other things are way weaker.

 

You’ve probably never seen the implant that regenerates your energy when your shields are hit.

 

4s for 15k damage? Yeah because you don’t see the charge, nor can fly away…

 

You’ve probably never used Pyro on beacons or against people trying to plant bombs.

Drones that easily die with explosives.

Yeah, if you have enough weapon range to hit a destroyer 5km away from you.

 

 

And nope… fighter don’t have hull/shield booster. Absolutely not.

 

Wait, are you actually saying that fighters are better than destroyers because they can regenerate 4k hull/shield every 40 seconds?

 

An antares with 3 drones out regenerates about 600 hp EVERY second. + Jericho router, 600 shield each second.

A Sybil fit for shield regen regenerates over 1000 shield each second.

105

I got your point. That’s what I describe the 1 on 1 Pro Kill. You want an OS insta kill button to kill everything in 1s or less. Now you encounter a ship that hold out for more than 1s and you Q.Q about it. It require now teamwork to bring him with ease down, and THAT is something you don’t want. You are so in your 1 on 1, that you don’t even want a team at all. This is just what YOU want.

Btw : it is all about survival in destroyers (in PvP, etc.) because the wait time after suffering a kill is tramendous (~1min). In other words, to use your destroyer purposefully and reasonable in battles it has to survive and mainly to suppress and try to dominate space, exactly that is the challenge.

 

 

ShonFrost, on 30 May 2016 - 5:25 PM, said:

To kill him with just your main weapon, you’ll probably have to shoot him for more than 40 seconds…

Do you understand now? Probably not.

The problem isn’t the passive, the problem is the fact that destroyers already have very few weaknesses compared to other ships, so the pilots are able to even further increase their strength.

 

That has been answered by the spokesperson of the devs multiple times: changes according to ShonFrost’s liking will not happen.

 

So , what is it that you further go into heated debate? You like destroyers, good – you don’t like destroyers evenly good just don’t fly them. Old times of 3 ship classes (and the according old logics and tactics) are over  … :snowgirl:

 

P.S.: We now have[Reaper & Phoenix Remastered](< base_url >/index.php?showtopic=30520) more in the dev’s queue and Evolution of ‘Sector Conquest’ coming …

106

I don’t know how you manage to come up with messages that contain absolutely no sense after my last post but sadly I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain it to you anymore.

107

Lord Xenon, what ships apart from destroyers do you fly?

108

Here we go again…

I don’t want to kill it in 1 second. To me, 15-20s are a fair amount of time to kill an heavy ship. Also, the implications of the fact that you need teamwork to bring one of them down are pretty big. Because, that means Destroyer>every other ship, and 1 Destroyer=2-3 regular ships. This could be fine, but the problem is that a Destroyer has the same weight as every other ship. There’s no penalty in using them. You still have the same amount of people on each team. So if your team composition is 7 regular ships + 1 destroyer and the enemy team composition is 8 regular ships, that means Your Team>Enemy team.

Also, I’m a strategic kind of person, definitely not a lone wolf. Going Leeroy Jenkins with one ship just hurts your team, because if you die, they’ll be in numerical inferiority. That’s why I go completely mad when people just go suicide into the enemy team instead of doing coordinated pushes.

ECM shouldn’t be always the answer to everything.

The problem with black hole is that it damages only the enemy team, preventing them to capture a beacon while your team can still do that. Here’s the main problem.

Also, what I described is perfectly possible. You can use Pyro, Black Hole, Photon, Plasma turret + Repair drones and you can do everything I listed.

You still don’t get the damn point, do you? Almost all the battles are static. There aren’t huge movements. Of course, interceptors and fighters move around a lot, but always in fixed places, like near a beacon, or around a rock in Team battle and Combat recon. This isn’t a problem when you have huge weapon range. You can sit near a beacon and prevent the enemy ships to come to it, and then, if needed, you can jump to the next one with wormhole.

I’m not talking about people that just stand still and wait for you to kill them. I’m talking about the fact that pilots tend to fight always in the same locations, so you can move to those location and wait them to come.

You’ve probably never seen a low spread meson/coilgun build…

You’ve probably never seen the implant that regenerates your energy when your shields are hit.

You’ve probably never used Pyro on beacons or against people trying to plant bombs.

Yeah, if you have enough weapon range to hit a destroyer 5km away from you.

Wait, are you actually saying that fighters are better than destroyers because they can regenerate 4k hull/shield every 40 seconds?

An antares with 3 drones out regenerates about 600 hp EVERY second. + Jericho router, 600 shield each second.

A Sybil fit for shield regen regenerates over 1000 shield each second.

Why should a destroyer die in such a timeframe? Especially with 40+s downtime? And no. Destroyer is not >normal ships. Else everytime the team with more destroyer would win. But this isn’t so. That’s already stated by many.

>>I’m talking about the fact that pilots tend to fight always in the same locations<<

Funny. You blame the destroyers for people having such behavior? Pathetic isn’t it? To the beacon/stations: You again use specific scenarios. Why you don’t come with all available scenarios? Doesn’t they suit all your argument? Funny that such a scenario can be used by other classes as well. A group of inties/figther can easily overhelm enemies going alone in such scenarios and then after that to the next goal. So nothing unique to destroyer.

To ECM: Why shouldn’t they be THE ANSWER? Because they don’t do damage like Covertops/figthers? Are not in the mantra DAMAGE?

They can easily control a destroyer and make them easy prey. And then your even demonised BH is abolished. Would be to easy or? Nope we focus on just using the worst scenarios for our arguments?

To the spread: Nope. They were most to focused attacking other destroyers as a fast inty/fighter doesn’t really care about the occasional hit. For that there are enough obstacles around. And if the destroyer focus just on one: One lost ship of the enemy for just your fighter?

You don’t get the point or? How will destroyer repair themselfes? Just with the pathetic ~200+ shielregen? Repair drones + special module can be countered. So you can’t have 24/7 as you imply.

And don’t forget, that they are way bigger targets as a fighter and take more damage as them from explosives.

Edit: To the ships: Tackler, Engi and guards.

109

And here we go. AGAIN.

Why should a destroyer die in such a timeframe? Especially with 40+s downtime? And no. Destroyer is not >normal ships. Else everytime the team with more destroyer would win. But this isn’t so. That’s already stated by many.

Let me explain you… (god, this seems like teaching General Relativity to a 8 year old kid…)

 

Let’s start by summarizing the general strengths and weaknesses of each class…

 

Interceptor characteristics: Incredibly agile. Very low tank. Depending on the role, they can either do incredibly high burst damage (up to 20k in 4 seconds), disable enemy ships for long periods of time, or have warp module

 

Fighter characteristics: Medium tank and mobility. Depending on the role, they can do very high damage, specialize in killing interceptors, or supporting your team and using your energy as tank. 

 

Frigates characteristics: High tank, low mobility, generally low damage (except lrfs). They can either specialize in guarding areas and tank, healing other players, or having high damage from high range at the cost of tank.

 

Destroyers characteristics: Enormous tank (up to 7 times the tank of a frigate). Slightly lower mobility than frigates. Very high damage (more than the one of a gunship, with an effective range of about 4km.) Depending on your fit, you can either specialize in very high tank, regeneration or speed. You can use modules to deal high amounts of damage, lock down areas and warp. 

 

You see? As JasanQuinn said in his post “Biggest tank or biggest weapons - pick one”, destroyers have both high damage and tank. And you can’t say they have no mobility, because their base speed is just a little lower than the frigates one, and the wormhole make destroyers able to cover huge distances. Also, the downtime is almost irrelevant, because 1) Usually destroyers survive much more than other ships, so, less respawns each match; and 2) Good players using destroyers usually _never _die in a match.

 

And yup, destroyers are more effective than other ships. 5 destroyer, 2 engies and 1 command > 5 guards or gunships, 2 engines and 1 command. I’ve tried this in tournament, most of the times, with evenly skilled players, the side with more destroyers wins. Also, the “many” that say destroyers are fine are mostly n00b players, that can do good only on them. A good player with a destroyer can do better in battle than another good player in a regular ships. And that, is seriously stated by many. Ask almost every vet on this forum. Some of them already stated that in this post.

 

>>I’m talking about the fact that pilots tend to fight always in the same locations<<
Funny. You blame the destroyers for people having such behavior? Pathetic isn’t it? To the beacon/stations: You again use specific scenarios. Why you don’t come with all available scenarios? Doesn’t they suit all your argument? Funny that such a scenario can be used by other classes as well. A group of inties/figther can easily overhelm enemies going alone in such scenarios and then after that to the next goal. So nothing unique to destroyer.

 

Yeah, but that is a GROUP of players. That means that you probably left your team in numerical inferiority. The problem here is that, for example, a SINGLE destroyer can stay near a beacon and prevent multiple ships to get there.

 

So, you want all the scenarios. Well, I think this is gonna be a long post…

 

Here are the strategies I would use in every gamemode and situation.

 

Combat recon:

  • You are the captain. That’s probably the best situation. With your tank and incredibly powerful weapons (base high destroyer damage + captain buff), you can easily just wait for people to come and try to kill you and destroy them easily.

  • You aren’t the captain. Stay in the middle of the field, possibly in an open area, and push a little on one of the side of the enemy team and start suppressing them with your weapons and modules: probably some of the enemy fighters/interceptors will come to you. If you are good enough, kill them. If you find yourself in a dangerous situation, just warp away.

  • You want to kill the captain. If the enemy captain is a frigate, than it’s very easy. Just warp very close to him, and use tempest launcher as a shotgun. If it is another destroyer, than you’ll need at least another friend using a destroyer to bring him down. If it’s a fighter/interceptor, you can still use coilguns, which are pretty effective against them, pyro emitter and black hole (I’ve seen lots of people kill captains like that, with a warp).

 

Team battle: 

 

Use the same strategy as the 2nd “Combat recon” tactic.

 

Beacon hunt:

 

Probably the gamemode where destroyers’ OPness shines the most.

The strategy is simple. As soon as the battle starts, use a blackhole on the beacon, preventing the other team to capture it for 30 seconds. Then, let your team capture it, and start to camp in front of it. When another beacon is active, immediately use wormhole to get there. If the other team is starting to capture a beacon and some of your teammates are down, use the black hole to delay the capture and let your team respawn.

 

Domination:

 

You should try to stay between 2 beacons, if you are the only destroyer in your team. With your weapon range, you can cover both of them at the same time. Again, if the enemy team tries to capture one of your beacon and your teammates are down, use black hole to delay the capture. Pyro is also effective to clear beacons from drones/Interceptors trying to get it.

 

I won’t cover Capture the Beacons, because it isn’t anymore in random pvp. But anyway, you can use pyro to clear beacons from drones, and blackhole to delay their capture. 

 

Bomb mode (I don’t remember its name):

 

An antares can easily pick up the bomb and rush to an enemy station, usually you have enough tank to survive and plant the bomb. I’ve seen people do this lots of times. Also, pyro and blackhole are excellent to kill people trying to plant/pick up bombs. Again staying between station is a great way to cover both of them at the same time.

 

 

As you can see, they all suit my argument. A well played destroyer can dominate a match. You can stay in a zone where other pilots are forced to go, such as beacons, stations and captains, and then use your clearly superior weaponry and tank to kill all the opposition. 

 

 

 

To ECM: Why shouldn’t they be THE ANSWER? Because they don’t do damage like Covertops/figthers? Are not in the mantra DAMAGE?
They can easily control a destroyer and make them easy prey. And then your even demonised BH is abolished. Would be to easy or? Nope we focus on just using the worst scenarios for our arguments?

 

Tell me another class that has just one counter. Also, ECM isn’t the answer because not everyone likes to play it. In theory, you should have a chance against all the ships with everything you use. For example: if you use a rail gunship, you can be effective against every other class except destroyers. Same with gauss and lasers. Reason? Static barriers. Not all the weapons have piercing/exploding rounds. 

 

You don’t get the point or? How will destroyer repair themselfes? Just with the pathetic ~200+ shielregen? Repair drones + special module can be countered. So you can’t have 24/7 as you imply.
And don’t forget, that they are way bigger targets as a fighter and take more damage as them from explosives.
 

YOU don’t get the point here. The “pathetic” shield regen of a Sybil can be up to 1000 shield/second, with almost 110/110/110 resistances (about 60% damage reduction). That means that 1) A sybil can regen its full 44k shield in just 44 seconds; 2) You can deny over 2k of the enemy dps. That means that most of the interceptors and fighter weapons do absolutely NOTHING to you. You can reach those stats by using 3 capacitor shield regen bonuses, 1 Em resistance booster, 1 Thermal Resistance booster, 1 Shield regen booster, the Multiphase shield module, the Jericho router, the 3c and the +10 resistance implants. Antares and brave can do almost the same thing with hull, using repair drones and resistance-focused build. 

 

Of course, all of this is without an engineer/command near you. 

 

 

EDIT: I forgot to comment your statement about spread… Try using a meson or coilgun with 3x spread reduction passives, you’ll melt everything. 

110

>>Destroyers characteristics: Enormous tank (up to 7 times the tank of a frigate). Slightly lower mobility than frigates. Very high damage (more than the one of a gunship, with an effective range of about 4km.) Depending on your fit, you can either specialize in very high tank, regeneration or speed. You can use modules to deal high amounts of damage, lock down areas and warp. <<

Slightly?! Sorry, but it’s a lot!

You lack over 20% speed and mobility. Then we have to factor in, that you are way bigger as frigates making passing/flying through not open space tricky.

Engie/LRF Frigates can warp too.

To the biggest weapons: Can we real discuss about that? There are different turretamount. It’s like comparing inties with fighters and those with LRF. The weapon itself are not higher damage-wise as the other classes. Funny thing: Every other class can reach ~3k - 5k dps vs. destroyer, making them on par with destroyers.

>>Also, the downtime is almost irrelevant, because 1) Usually destroyers survive much more than other ships, so, less respawns each match; and 2) Good players using destroyers usually never die in a match.<<

You compare the downside to the benefit. And yes, downtime IS relevant. You throw the enemy team with a kill in your called numerous inferiority. And this matter if you have only 10s or up to one minute!

>>And yup, destroyers are more effective than other ships. 5 destroyer, 2 engies and 1 command > 5 guards or gunships, 2 engines and 1 command. I’ve tried this in tournament, most of the times, with evenly skilled players, the side with more destroyers wins. Also, the “many” that say destroyers are fine are mostly n00b players, that can do good only on them. A good player with a destroyer can do better in battle than another good player in a regular ships. And that, is seriously stated by many. Ask almost every vet on this forum. Some of them already stated that in this post.<<

You compare two setups. That one of three cases can be applied is logically: Lose, draw or win. This is hardly an argument. You found a counter to your grouplayout. Maybe you should try out other compositions of your team? Come back if you tried out all compositions.

>>Yeah, but that is a GROUP of players. That means that you probably left your team in numerical inferiority. The problem here is that, for example, a SINGLE destroyer can stay near a beacon and prevent multiple ships to get there.<<

When your team has this flexibility, it can easily do that. Especially with your beloved flying bricks hunting those. Oh wait they don’t do that. They just sit at specific goals waiting for their ‘prey’ to come.

>>- You aren’t the captain. Stay in the middle of the field, possibly in an open area, and push a little on one of the side of the enemy team and start suppressing them with your weapons and modules: probably some of the enemy fighters/interceptors will come to you. If you are good enough, kill them. If you find yourself in a dangerous situation, just warp away.<<

Stunned, warp gone, maybe even AB+all modules ripped, what now?

>>- You want to kill the captain. If the enemy captain is a frigate, than it’s very easy. Just warp very close to him, and use tempest launcher as a shotgun. If it is another destroyer, than you’ll need at least another friend using a destroyer to bring him down. If it’s a fighter/interceptor, you can still use coilguns, which are pretty effective against them, pyro emitter and black hole (I’ve seen lots of people kill captains like that, with a warp).<<

What if he warps/jump away/hide?

Fighter/Inties are weak as captains, no discussion about these as they are not stuff made for such things(especially with the drawbacks as captain).

>>Probably the gamemode where destroyers’ OPness shines the most.

The strategy is simple. As soon as the battle starts, use a blackhole on the beacon, preventing the other team to capture it for 30 seconds. Then, let your team capture it, and start to camp in front of it. When another beacon is active, immediately use wormhole to get there. If the other team is starting to capture a beacon and some of your teammates are down, use the black hole to delay the capture and let your team respawn.<<

Because what? ‘OPness’ haven’t to be true.

>>You should try to stay between 2 beacons, if you are the only destroyer in your team. With your weapon range, you can cover both of them at the same time. Again, if the enemy team tries to capture one of your beacon and your teammates are down, use black hole to delay the capture. Pyro is also effective to clear beacons from drones/Interceptors trying to get it.<<

Casting BH - stunned by ECM.

Casting Pyro - just flying a bit away until it runs out.

Using warp - you see it and can fly around the beacon or - stunned by ECM trying so.

What now? Inties/fighter are small enough to hide behind the beacon.

>>Bomb mode (I don’t remember its name):

An antares can easily pick up the bomb and rush to an enemy station, usually you have enough tank to survive and plant the bomb. I’ve seen people do this lots of times. Also, pyro and blackhole are excellent to kill people trying to plant/pick up bombs. Again staying between station is a great way to cover both of them at the same time.<<

Detonation. Figthers have the easiest way to deliver the bomb. Done it many times.

To the guarding: Same as above. What now?

>>Tell me another class that has just one counter. Also, ECM isn’t the answer because not everyone likes to play it. In theory, you should have a chance against all the ships with everything you use. For example: if you use a rail gunship, you can be effective against every other class except destroyers. Same with gauss and lasers. Reason? Static barriers. Not all the weapons have piercing/exploding rounds. <<

ECM and Covert Ops are two classes. And with explosives every class can disable their modules.

Static barriers are not the whole shield area. And your flexibility should be enough to sync gaps between those areas, especially with lasers. And not every weapon is equal useful against every ship.

>>YOU don’t get the point here. The “pathetic” shield regen of a Sybil can be up to 1000 shield/second, with almost 110/110/110 resistances (about 60% damage reduction). That means that 1) A sybil can regen its full 44k shield in just 44 seconds; 2) You can deny over 2k of the enemy dps. That means that most of the interceptors and fighter weapons do absolutely NOTHING to you. You can reach those stats by using 3 capacitor shield regen bonuses, 1 Em resistance booster, 1 Thermal Resistance booster, 1 Shield regen booster, the Multiphase shield module, the Jericho router, the 3c and the +10 resistance implants. Antares and brave can do almost the same thing with hull, using repair drones and resistance-focused build. <<

A fighter/inty can go in your shield - regen is totally useless. Rip your modules - hull damage - and then?

To the hull: Explosives works wonder.

And a tackler with ion can debuff with recon extrem such ones.

>>EDIT: I forgot to comment your statement about spread… Try using a meson or coilgun with 3x spread reduction passives, you’ll melt everything.

<<

The same as other fighters/frigates can do with lasers. Except destroyer, but for those explosives work wonders.

111

Wow the walls of text are getting longer and longer…

112

Well, I’m done here. I’ll post no more on this thread after this last post, because this discussion is leading nowhere. 

 

I’ll have to admit, some of your points are actually really valid. I’ll just point out some of the flawed ones.

 

 

>>Destroyers characteristics: Enormous tank (up to 7 times the tank of a frigate). Slightly lower mobility than frigates. Very high damage (more than the one of a gunship, with an effective range of about 4km.) Depending on your fit, you can either specialize in very high tank, regeneration or speed. You can use modules to deal high amounts of damage, lock down areas and warp. <<

Slightly?! Sorry, but it’s a lot!
You lack over 20% speed and mobility. Then we have to factor in, that you are way bigger as frigates making passing/flying through not open space tricky.

Engie/LRF Frigates can warp too.

To the biggest weapons: Can we real discuss about that? There are different turretamount. It’s like comparing inties with fighters and those with LRF. The weapon itself are not higher damage-wise as the other classes. Funny thing: Every other class can reach ~3k - 5k dps vs. destroyer, making them on par with destroyers.

 

 

To the mobility: you have to take into account that destroyers can fire in a 360° dome. They don’t need rotation to turn around and shoot stuff. 

 

Yes, engie and LRF can warp too, but their warp is much weaker and trickier than wormhole. With Reverse thruster, you don’t know where you are going, and you gain a debuff in resistance when you are charging. With the engie, you have to manually enter the gate, which can be tricky, and lots of times you just end up crashing on things. 

With wormhole, you just point it, shoot, and then you can continue to fire until you get teleported. 

 

About the weapons:

 

That’s not an argument. The total dps is just higher than other ships. Turret amount doesn’t matter, a broadside destroyers just deals much more damage than other regular ships (with some exceptions). And, if you think about it, interceptors and fighters have very similar dps when considering crit chance, and LRF have higher damage at the cost of tank

 

You compare two setups. That one of three cases can be applied is logically: Lose, draw or win. This is hardly an argument. You found a counter to your grouplayout. Maybe you should try out other compositions of your team? Come back if you tried out all compositions.
 

 

 

I was on the Destroyer side when I played those tournament matches… Guess what. We went 3-0. 250 gs for everyone.

 

Just tell me a group layout that can counter the following one:

 

5 destroyers, 2 engineers, 1 command.

 

>>- You aren’t the captain. Stay in the middle of the field, possibly in an open area, and push a little on one of the side of the enemy team and start suppressing them with your weapons and modules: probably some of the enemy fighters/interceptors will come to you. If you are good enough, kill them. If you find yourself in a dangerous situation, just warp away.<<

Stunned, warp gone, maybe even AB+all modules ripped, what now?

>>You should try to stay between 2 beacons, if you are the only destroyer in your team. With your weapon range, you can cover both of them at the same time. Again, if the enemy team tries to capture one of your beacon and your teammates are down, use black hole to delay the capture. Pyro is also effective to clear beacons from drones/Interceptors trying to get it.<<

Casting BH - stunned by ECM.
Casting Pyro - just flying a bit away until it runs out.
Using warp - you see it and can fly around the beacon or - stunned by ECM trying so.
What now? Inties/fighter are small enough to hide behind the beacon.

>>Bomb mode (I don’t remember its name):

An antares can easily pick up the bomb and rush to an enemy station, usually you have enough tank to survive and plant the bomb. I’ve seen people do this lots of times. Also, pyro and blackhole are excellent to kill people trying to plant/pick up bombs. Again staying between station is a great way to cover both of them at the same time.<<

Detonation. Figthers have the easiest way to deliver the bomb. Done it many times.

To the guarding: Same as above. What now?

 

 

This could be true, especially now that ECMs are everywhere since they got buffs on special module and statis… That, IMHO, weren’t absolutely needed. 

 

But.

 

You can still stack up some proton walls + implants.

And, if you stay far enough from the battlefield, you can still use your modules while staying away from the ECMs range. Also, ECMs don’t have any camo, so you can see them while they come at you and kill them with coils/meson.

 

 

>>- You want to kill the captain. If the enemy captain is a frigate, than it’s very easy. Just warp very close to him, and use tempest launcher as a shotgun. If it is another destroyer, than you’ll need at least another friend using a destroyer to bring him down. If it’s a fighter/interceptor, you can still use coilguns, which are pretty effective against them, pyro emitter and black hole (I’ve seen lots of people kill captains like that, with a warp).<<

What if he warps/jump away/hide?

Fighter/Inties are weak as captains, no discussion about these as they are not stuff made for such things(especially with the drawbacks as captain).
 

 

A captain cannot hide. And, if it’s a frigate, it cannot warp. Or, it could try, but if it’s a lrf, it would die immediately, and if it’s an engineer, the destroyers would just destroy the gate.

 

>>Probably the gamemode where destroyers’ OPness shines the most.

The strategy is simple. As soon as the battle starts, use a blackhole on the beacon, preventing the other team to capture it for 30 seconds. Then, let your team capture it, and start to camp in front of it. When another beacon is active, immediately use wormhole to get there. If the other team is starting to capture a beacon and some of your teammates are down, use the black hole to delay the capture and let your team respawn.<<

Because what? ‘OPness’ haven’t to be true.

 

 

The “OPness” is in the fact that destroyers can deny beacons to the enemy team and warp to the next beacon each time, while in theory they should get there slowly. Why would you bring Recon, if you can just warp with destroyers?

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

>>A fighter/inty can go in your shield - regen is totally useless. Rip your modules - hull damage - and then?<<

 

Without plasma arc, it’s very hard to go under shields, and you can always use photon to kill the attacker

 

 

 

@OmegaFighter

 

I’m stopping here with the walls of text…

113

>>because this discussion is leading nowhere<<

Without discussions, something will may stay as it is and that can hardly be acceptable.

You know what? I already stated some tweaks to destroyers before the discussion.

>>To the mobility: you have to take into account that destroyers can fire in a 360° dome. They don’t need rotation to turn around and shoot stuff. <<

While it’s true, it’s at the same time false. At least if you take into dps and availability to other classes.

I found it the hard way - and on my own - that frigates can do that too. Not sure about fighters(inty doesn’t seem to do that anymore thanks to fix), as I haven’t encountered to manoeuvrable ships.

But there seem to be some limits 300° sphere/±150°? At least I encountered that.

They could alter the CTRL for normal ships to be able to aim the same way the current standard aiming is for destroyers. Then this argument would be totally invalid.

>>Yes, engie and LRF can warp too, but their warp is much weaker and trickier than wormhole. With Reverse thruster, you don’t know where you are going, and you gain a debuff in resistance when you are charging. With the engie, you have to manually enter the gate, which can be tricky, and lots of times you just end up crashing on things.

With wormhole, you just point it, shoot, and then you can continue to fire until you get teleported. <<

You see the warp from destroyer too(the ball). So it’s not they can ambush you within 1s. It takes over 6s for that. Enough time to prepare.

With awareness you can enter the warpgate before the destroyer is finally at you.

To the RT: It’s just a matter of practice. And you know, that you jump backwards.

>>That’s not an argument. The total dps is just higher than other ships. Turret amount doesn’t matter, a broadside destroyers just deals much more damage than other regular ships (with some exceptions). And, if you think about it, interceptors and fighters have very similar dps when considering crit chance, and LRF have higher damage at the cost of tank<<

Hardly more. With the explosives/AoE malus, other ships are next to on par with destroyers. And you need to consider, the size of your target to hit.

>>5 destroyers, 2 engineers, 1 command.<<

3-5 Covert Ops, 2 ECM and maybe a few commands/fighters.

Take out the command/engie and see what can happen. But with ‘tournament’ it’s only T3 destroyer, so a bit different to T4 ones. Haven’t encountered a full T4+ group except leagues.

>>You can still stack up some proton walls + implants.

And, if you stay far enough from the battlefield, you can still use your modules while staying away from the ECMs range. Also, ECMs don’t have any camo, so you can see them while they come at you and kill them with coils/meson<<

It doesn’t matter if the stun is 0.1s or 5s. The module is disabled(BH/Pyro/WH).

Covert Ops can disable the radar of a victim. This can be enough for the ECM to go in him to stun. Or the covert ops can rip the modules by himself.

>>A captain cannot hide. And, if it’s a frigate, it cannot warp. Or, it could try, but if it’s a lrf, it would die immediately, and if it’s an engineer, the destroyers would just destroy the gate.<<

I know that a captain can’t hide. But he can be behind obstacles. You imply, that the frigate stay wide open to be shot at.

>>Without plasma arc, it’s very hard to go under shields, and you can always use photon to kill the attacker<<

Not really? You kiss the xxxx of him and are already under his shield?

It’s not so difficult. Especially if you are above/below his hull(biggest distance within the shield sphere).

To cover: Many modules(white noise jammer for allies) let you ambush him, especially if he is fighting another target already.

>>The “OPness” is in the fact that destroyers can deny beacons to the enemy team and warp to the next beacon each time, while in theory they should get there slowly. Why would you bring Recon, if you can just warp with destroyers?<<

After some thinking, it removes a bit of the advantage of antares as well and the use is hardly something reliable. I would even slowly agree to remove this module.

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>>because this discussion is leading nowhere<<

Without discussions, something will may stay as it is and that can hardly be acceptable.

You know what? I already stated some tweaks to destroyers before the discussion.

*snip*

Maybe you should get some more experience, especially at r11+, 191 PvP battles in total aren’t much (Frogstats).

 

@all good luck at getting the game more balanced, I will take a long brake and maybe check if they got smth fixed in autumn .

115

I doubt it, because t5 destros are probably coming in autumn. That will be the end of rank 15 pvp.

116

See, I don’t get it… Why would a human being claim so many things with so little experience? Frustrating.

117

This thread is getting out of hand. Since this had a topic and what you discuss now is not really about it but Destroyers in general.

Closed.

If you want to continue your personal discussion, use the PM system.

Or create a new thread, for this kind of topic.

The poll can still be used.