Damage Types, and how they are dealt with

Suggestions Balance
#1

I’m noticing a few more issues with damage types, and while i wanted to put it in my potential post, i want to try to keep the subjects seperate so that others can chime in on it and present more feed back, so that as a community we can approach it from many different angles.

I am noticing three major problems with armor tanks, out side of the fact that i feel regeneration (active) Modules are not good.

The first is

"Passive regenerative Shielding Vs ???.." (Problem 1)

Passive regeneration armor mods are required at to high a level.

"armor tanking, vs shield tanking" (Problem 2)

The first is i believe we should have a third damage pool " hull" Along with an armor and shield pool

the reason for this is because when you tank as an armor tank, you take damage to modules, and that puts armor tanking

at a huge disadvantage over shield tanking. Second i feel that as an armor tank, shields can be reduced a little more, and armor can be increased a little more.

Lets consider…

* shift some more of the shielding to armor

Example

T2 Deimos has 6.2k armor, 4.2k shields

New

8.2k armor, 2.2k shield

Effective change

50% of shields transferred to armor.

Damage principles (Problem 3)

if you have been reading my posts about all the suggested changes, I have been making, you will understand how i for see the game going. You have for example seen that i desire to see a little more skirmish, and a little less sniping, but at the same time want to make sniping more viable and vulnerable (by taking away ship abilities to snipe, changing laser/plasma to short/medium range, and railguns to long range).

But i am starting to worry about the basic principles of the game what i mean by this is, Shielding and armor are basically the same. they regenerate the same, they take damage the same, but this is firstly not balanced, and second the above mentioned effect of damaging the hull is not the same as for say in eve, of damaging the armor. this is a fundemental flaw in the game.

My proposal is this

Since shielding and armor regenerate now and work in the same way, that makes armor safer to tank, largely because you have the massive shield regeneration from passive modules. so in essence you can basically double tank.

I think this is unfair to shielding.

I want to see active mods regenerating in a stable way to passive regeneration now, and passive regeneration nerfed to only 30-40% (its roughly a 15% Buff to shield tanking effectiveness). The major reason for this change is it makes using other passive mods equally beneficial. because as it stands now, its likely any shield tank has passive shield regen mods, not resisitance.

On top of this armor needs to be different. the armor pool should be larger then shields, but slower regenerating, but regenerating larger chunks. This is because you have shields regenerating for the ship out right, so if you make the armor and the shield regeneration at the same rate, you get over powered tanking on the armor tanks.

Lastly, Armor tanks need to have higher resistance then shield tanks, but this should be done through a means that is, well not passive (passive module slot). an option for this is to make the armor resistance mods that are for active slots, use those active slots, but be active-passive (you activate them, they drain small amounts of energy, but basically are passive and resistance is like 150, rather then shields 100).

You want to do this because as it stands now, armor is the last line of defense, where as for a shield tank, you have armor acting as a line of defense if they manage to get through, while as an armor tank you don’t have that second line to protect you from a timely demise.

Take a look at the win-loss ratio in game. this is likely the reason why empire is doing so poorly

#2

you have quite a few mistakes in your suggestion which makes it mute…

shield and hull have different weakneses , there are 3 types of damage ingame , they do NOT take the same damage.

there are tons of different active and passive modules for resistence and shield/armour regen that already exist ingame,

check the shop and untick compatible to my ship and go through active and passive modules of T2 and up to see what im talking about.

i suggest looking around more next time ;3

#3

I suggest you read more next time. I am well aware of the mods.

This is not the issue, I am proposing that armor by default has a set amount of resistance which is higher then that of shielding.

for example, armor has 35 all resistance base, and sheild has 15.

this is because with the suggested changes above, armor rep is slower, which is caused because of the shield regeneration mitigating damage. its a long math process, but this is the way for it to be balanced.

Further, we can use more damage types (Explosive, and plasma can stand to be added) for things like plasma weapons, and missiles dont really fit EM or thermal. and if missile Main weapons are to be added as its being talked about in the near future, we just need an independent type of damage.

further, plasma should DoT effect Shields to make it unique, and to help with the lower amounts of damage output.

#4

Shielding and armor are basically the same. they regenerate the same, they take damage the same

they dont regen the same, shield regens faster than hull due to passive skills and greater % in regen modules.

hull doesnt even regen without mods.

Since shielding and armor regenerate now and work in the same way , that makes armor safer to tank, largely because you have the massive shield regeneration from passive modules. so in essence you can basically double tank.

you cant double tank due to pure ineffectiveness and different weapons and missile types,a shield tanker will get his shield destroyed by a plasma

user and with a simple mod change so will his hull, tanking both doesnt change anything, especialy when theres 1 weapon that does both types of critical damage to the ship, also missiles.

I think this is unfair to shielding.

ever chased a capable jericho interceptor?

shields can be taken down but it requires heavy hitting, if stacked right its 3 times better than hull.

I want to see active mods regenerating in a stable way to passive regeneration now ,

the current mods arnt perfect, but the passive regen of hull is 0.

because as it stands now, its likely any shield tank has passive shield regen mods, not resisitance.

resistence on shields is about 3 times more effective with the right piloting, i just fought a T4 attack ship that warded shots off like its butter.

Take a look at the win-loss ratio in game. this is likely the reason why empire is doing so poorly

that bar is 0 indication to anything, im actualy jericho due to prefering missile damage buff, but i use federation ships because i enjoy their ability

and im already rank 7 in the armada.

also the empire is still as strong as ever, desin is still OP as ever, and their attack ships still tank and move better than anyone.

I suggest you read more next time. I am well aware of the mods.

it doesnt seem youre aware enough if i had to type all of this.

Further, we can use more damage types (Explosive, and plasma can stand to be added) for things like plasma weapons, and missiles dont really fit EM or thermal.

if i remember correctly the devs said they want a game with a certain amount of modularity that wont be as complex as EVE nor will be too simple to more serious players, and tbh i think the current systems are just the right amount,but rebalancing is an endless task so yeah.

missiles go boom, thats thermal :___________________/

further, plasma should DoT effect Shields to make it unique, and to help with the lower amounts of damage output.

its already over the top ,a weapon thats effective vs both shield and hull AND dot? no thank you.

im not being sarcastic or offensive, its just an easy way to respawn to a wall of text.

if you still think that i missed your point, due tell in specifics.

#5

Shielding and armor are basically the same. they regenerate the same, they take damage the sam

The above was stated by active mods, not passive. in general they are the same.

Since shielding and armor regenerate now and work in the same way , that makes armor safer to tank, largely because you have the massive shield regeneration from passive modules. so in essence you can basically double tank.

The above was stated based on the previous statement. Armor tanking is a double tank when you have shields regenerating at 500-1000/s because of passive tanking. You dont need to set up for double tank, you just tank armor, and passive regen the shielding. as a result, you get uber tank from double tanking (basically unintentionally).

I think this is unfair to shielding.

The above stated, again is because of the previous red text.

I want to see active mods regenerating in a stable way to passive regeneration now ,

What is ment by this is that its better to have active mods regenerating as the core way of regeneration, not passive (like shielding for example)

This way passive is the means to support the tank, not the means of the tank

I** f it supports the tank, then active mods can delete or go on timer, which means the ship becomes vulnerable, that is how you fix over powered tanking, Some things right now just refuse to die because of the over powered nature of that passive shield regen (100%+)**

so the solution is changing the active mods to be 1/2 the cooldown of now, at a slightly lower effect, over a longer duration of time, so that critical strikes can burst through the moderate healing, and so that during that 15-30 seconds of things being on cooldown, you can burst the target down. Instead of kiting around rocks and tanking 6-7 people’s fire. its not balanced.

Take a look at the win-loss ratio in game. this is likely the reason why empire is doing so poorly

that bar is 0 indication to anything, im actualy jericho due to prefering missile damage buff, but i use federation ships because i enjoy their ability

and im already rank 7 in the armada.

also the empire is still as strong as ever, desin is still OP as ever, and their attack ships still tank and move better than anyone.

This is because of the passive regen, try armor tanking with out that passive mod. Its broken. It needs a fix.

if i remember correctly the devs said they want a game with a certain amount of modularity that wont be as complex as EVE nor will be too simple to more serious players, and tbh i think the current systems are just the right amount,but rebalancing is an endless task so yeah.

missiles go boom, thats thermal :___________________/

Adding another damage type does not complex anything, its just about balancing the mod itself, so its an issue of the other mods. Adding these types just make the game more diverse. 3 damage types is very basic, it needs to be upgraded to 4 min, and perferably 5.

further, plasma should DoT effect Shields to make it unique, and to help with the lower amounts of damage output.

its already over the top ,a weapon thats effective vs both shield and hull AND dot? no thank you.

Plasma is good against stationary targets. If they move, its very hard to hit them, Infact it’s very bad, something like 20-30% accuracy. the only real way of fixing this is to upgrade their movement speed, which hopfully will be done. But another fix is for the dot to counter react regeneration (atleast enuff to keep full regen down) For example if i have regen of 1000 s / sec a dot of 800 a / sec would counter the regeneration partially so that if they keep moving, or hiding, they can be kiled.

damage does not need to be as above, it was just an example, but the idea is there. that if they hide, because of the low change of hitting, it will help plasma have a fighting chance.

as for stationary targets, nerf the damage a little, and it will be good.

#6

Shielding and armor are basically the same. they regenerate the same** , they take damage the sam**

The above was stated by active mods, not passive. in general they are the same.

but you cant just ignore skills/passives and say its the same, it doesnt work that way, YES the active modules have the same values but thats for general game balancing, you cant have different types of tanks and expect sandbag fights where everyone dont move and just powerhouse everyone

Since shielding and armor regenerate now and work in the same way , that makes armor safer to tank, largely because you have the massive shield regeneration from passive modules. so in essence you can basically double tank.

The above was stated based on the previous statement. Armor tanking is a double tank when you have shields regenerating at 500-1000/s because of passive tanking. You dont need to set up for double tank, you just tank armor, and passive regen the shielding. as a result, you get uber tank from double tanking (basically unintentionally).

as i stated earlier, you cant double tank effectivly with the current weapons and modules, its mute.

the game needs some serious balancing, its nothing new.

I want to see active mods regenerating in a stable way to passive regeneration now ,

What is ment by this is that its better to have active mods regenerating as the core way of regeneration, not passive (like shielding for example)

This way passive is the means to support the tank, not the means of the tank

I** f it supports the tank, then active mods can delete or go on timer, which means the ship becomes vulnerable, that is how you fix over powered tanking, Some things right now just refuse to die because of the over powered nature of that passive shield regen (100%+)**

so the solution is changing the active mods to be 1/2 the cooldown of now, at a slightly lower effect, over a longer duration of time, so that critical strikes can burst through the moderate healing, and so that during that 15-30 seconds of things being on cooldown, you can burst the target down. Instead of kiting around rocks and tanking 6-7 people’s fire. its not balanced.

everything is killable, everything.

changing the current active mods to the current passive regen rate will make frigs even more of a flying coffin, attack ships atm are the real powerhouses due to manuverability+respectable tanking, frigs are nice and interceptors can be a joke, your suggestion nerfs the command modules and kills frigs even faster, the game needs serious balancing, this isnt the way to apply it.

Take a look at the win-loss ratio in game. this is likely the reason why empire is doing so poorly

that bar is 0 indication to anything, im actualy jericho due to prefering missile damage buff, but i use federation ships because i enjoy their ability

and im already rank 7 in the armada.

also the empire is still as strong as ever, desin is still OP as ever, and their attack ships still tank and move better than anyone.

This is because of the passive regen, try armor tanking with out that passive mod. Its broken. It needs a fix.

no, its because they have insane abilitys such as desintigrator and overdrive while having more HP, im not saying theyr not killable, but they mostly have the upper hand.

further, plasma should DoT effect Shields to make it unique, and to help with the lower amounts of damage output.

its already over the top ,a weapon thats effective vs both shield and hull AND dot? no thank you.

Plasma is good against stationary targets. If they move, its very hard to hit them, Infact it’s very bad, something like 20-30% accuracy. the only real way of fixing this is to upgrade their movement speed, which hopfully will be done. But another fix is for the dot to counter react regeneration (atleast enuff to keep full regen down) For example if i have regen of 1000 s / sec a dot of 800 a / sec would counter the regeneration partially so that if they keep moving, or hiding, they can be kiled.

plasma is the fastest projectile weapon class in the exception of stablizied railgun, has the least spread and is effective vs both HP types with 2 simple modules,a 100% velocity module with 20% spread makes almost every plasma a insta hit at <3500 distance.

#7

but you cant just ignore skills/passives and say its the same, it doesnt work that way, YES the active modules have the same values but thats for general game balancing, you cant have different types of tanks and expect sandbag fights where everyone dont move and just powerhouse everyone

its not the same,nor is it balanced. passives being equal to actives is never how it should be, passives should support, never be the foundation of a tanking type (Like shield regen and how heavily all shield tanks rely on this one passive capacitor).

but you cant just ignore skills/passives and say its the same, it doesnt work that way, YES the active modules have the same values but thats for general game balancing, you cant have different types of tanks and expect sandbag fights where everyone dont move and just powerhouse everyone

as i stated, you dont have to double tank, you passive 1 mod, and you have double tank. i dont know tier 4+ is like, but down here in 2-3, its broken.

everything is killable, everything.

changing the current active mods to the current passive regen rate will make frigs even more of a flying coffin, attack ships atm are the real powerhouses due to manuverability+respectable tanking, frigs are nice and interceptors can be a joke, your suggestion nerfs the command modules and kills frigs even faster, the game needs serious balancing, this isnt the way to apply it.

no, it will not. lower cooldowns = tank increase. that means in general all survivability will go up. which means more skill is required to kill. sitting around and raw power tanking will still not work, nor should it ever, but it will prevent me from 4k 4k 4k 4k 4k 4k spaming you (like that) and killing you in no time because you crap is on cooldown.

no, its because they have insane abilitys such as desintigrator and overdrive while having more HP, im not saying theyr not killable, but they mostly have the upper hand

the sniper / missile thing is fun, but its broken, imo delete them. they only serve to encourage camping and its because of camping you se 28394324 vs 2 KDS.

plasma is the fastest projectile weapon class in the exception of stablizied railgun, has the least spread and is effective vs both HP types with 2 simple modules,a 100% velocity module with 20% spread makes almost every plasma a insta hit at <3500 distance.

shouldent be intentionally spaming spread, that should never be viable for a means to kill stuff, its just abuse of mechanics, and imo, i’d ban someone doing that

#8

no, it will not. lower cooldowns = tank increase. that means in general all survivability will go up. which means more skill is required to kill. sitting around and raw power tanking will still not work, nor should it ever, but it will prevent me from 4k 4k 4k 4k 4k 4k spaming you (like that) and killing you in no time because you crap is on cooldown.

dodging hits as a frigate is impossible with the best of flying vs the worst shooter, naturaly no1 is standing still for that half a shot dodge over long distances but your suggestion still doesnt fix anything, also i dont get the bolded part.

the sniper / missile thing is fun, but its broken, imo delete them. they only serve to encourage camping and its because of camping you se 28394324 vs 2 KDS.

well atleast we agree on 1 thing, iv been crying for sniper related weapons and abilities to be removed since CBT, with no luck obviously.

shouldent be intentionally spaming spread , that should never be viable for a means to kill stuff, its just abuse of mechanics, and imo, i’d ban someone doing that

im not sure i get what you mean…

the 20% spread is a bad thing… you obviously want a full damage shot… the module gives 100% velocity because plasma is rather slow in its natural form, lasers are insta hitting and rail is SLIGHTLY faster, but the mod makes it a viable weapon with a small cost.

also if i understand you right, using a flak cannon playstyle is BAN worthy? thats like saying being a cripple in a marathon is cheating…

#9

dodging hits as a frigate is impossible with the best of flying vs the worst shooter, naturaly no1 is standing still for that half a shot dodge over long distances but your suggestion still doesnt fix anything, also i dont get the bolded part.

Its like this. Right now the situation is as follows

Lots of damage being taken due to one ceptor hovering over me, I am full tank frigate, and killed by them (all be it takes a second or two to kill me).This could be fixed if tank dident have 45 second cooldown. It would require more then a ceptor to kill a frigate, and as a result, ceptor damage would become moot unless in groups of 3 or so (which is how i want it, and how it should be) When versing a frigate (Only)

Also ceptor and figter batles should be near equal, though fighter should win most of the time (say 4/5 but 10-15% Remaining hull)

so the equation works out to be

3 ceptors > 1 frigate

2 fighters > 1 frigate

1 frighter > 1 frigate

1 fighter > 1 frigate

2 seceptors > 1 fighter

well atleast we agree on 1 thing, iv been crying for sniper related weapons and abilities to be removed since CBT, with no luck obviously.

the only thing that needs to happen to sniping is that it needs to be reduced by 50% of its current range (to 6.5k max) The reason for this is simple and id demonstrated by a game i played earlier today.

16 vs 16 game.

both teams together tightly.

Score at the end of the game 1 to 36

why? Massive sniping. Its broken, and the devs are fighting for sniping. It is alright at 6.5 km range, but not 15 km.

The reason is simple, you cant strife or roll enuff to dodge it when coming head on, and you can only come head on to someone if you are approaching them, the only difference is weather or not they realize you are there, and if you are parked at a +10 km positive elevation height at 15 km from you, its hard to come at them from top or bottom or even behind. So in this position sniping is overpowered. Further, you have their team to worry about when trying to get to them.

So to fix this, you need to nerf the range. the weapons should be

Railguns (up to 6.5km with mods) Highest burst damage, longest range

Lasers (up to 4.5km With mods) highest accuracy, damage over time

Plasma (up to 3.6km with mods) highest rate of fire, moderate damage.

shouldent be intentionally spaming spread , that should never be viable for a means to kill stuff, its just abuse of mechanics, and imo, i’d ban someone doing that

by spamming spread i mean intentionally making your weapon spread really high, so that when you shoot 100 projectiles go 100 different ways to decloak a emp player.

#10

i think you should notice that no armor means death.Now in games we often see shield-tank ships with full shield and little armor are still flying and shooting ,but we never see armor-tank ships flying and shooting with no armor.

And you should know that ,shield tank have much motility than armor tank,it means that they fly faster and may escape in situations that armor tank may die.

I mean that if armor tank have no armor ,he will die but if a shield tank have no shield ,he still have some armor(though weak) and he may escape.

And suppose a situation,i am a armor tank , attacked by a sniper railgun(or other high DPH weapons), and i have only 2000 units armor ,so next hit may mean death to me.But if i am a shield tank,next hit means i have no shield and i lost some armor ,i am still alive and can repair my shield even to full.So what i want to say is that armor tank may die attacked by a high DPH low DPS weapon but shield tank may not(or lives longer?).

#11

we need a hull type of life, and an armor one.