Bring Back 4 man squads in pvp and add incentive to bring 8 man wings into pvp.

I’ll start with saying that facing kill squads is what makes this game fun and enjoyable for those looking for a challenge, and there will always be those that complain, but they are the minority.

What will bring up and give this game life is pilots working together joining forces and making large squads, not just 2 man teams, but 3 man and 4 man squads.

don’t punish the playerbase for wanting to queue up in 4 man squad by not letting them even get a game when the population is low or even high but with no squads to fight against.

allow squads of 4 to go up against randoms in ranks 12-15, this will allow squad play while leaving the lower levels to their usual ‘balance’

in lower tiers I’d still want those squads to be able to be created, but that’s up to the devs. perhaps place a mechanical limit on the number of people able to be squaded in ranks 1-11 pvp up to 2 or 3 pilots. 

Squad-play will drive this playerbase, don’t defeat it by not allowing friends to fight together against their enemies. Bring on competitive fights and even fights where it’s entirely one sided, this game will benefit from the immense enjoyment from all pilots of all types looking for a fun time. 

 

4 v random isn’t a good idea

 

however, 2 v random like we had was great combined with the ability to fight squads with ± 1 player. It created perfect incentive for squads (will also need squad indicator so people know who’s in a squad… idk why that was ever removed)

 

current system discourages squads. And I’m sure that’s exactly what the devs want - they clearly don’t want squads in pvp

7 minutes ago, _terrorblade said:

(will also need squad indicator so people know who’s in a squad… idk why that was ever removed)

People complained about the squads, especially if they lost a match, so they removed squad indicators. It was even suggested to do so beforehand.

 

 

I do not agree. Current tournament is impossible if you are in a random team, the maximum that you get is one two victories (if you lucky), third victory is more like a lottery.

im not even gonna bother reading your post, just NO! killsquads are not fun and even now with 2 player squads can severely ruin the fun in pub games. if devs come up with a game mode that is based more on cooperation who knows, but pvp in this state is not reasonable for this.

 

i think squads do nothing in the current mm to be honest.

battles are very often one sided without any squads or with squads, it does usually totally not matter.

the mm cant even get soloers right

 

facing a kill squad isnt really that fun. i think that is also already covered in leagues for anyone who is still a newcomer. i do think, facing kill squads makes one a harder player however. but you have to be ready to do it, and it should not be forced upon you.

i also think, players who still played in the era of 3-4 squads, and used to squad even in the times, where squads were punished by the mm with additional weight, are all in all todays’ best players.

anyway, kill squads means, that the game is e.g. a 4v4, with one side having an organized squad, which is prepared for most tactical situations. that is the definition, not a “good squad playing on one side of the table”.

 

i do think historically, trying to fight against squads and listening to the QQ was a big mistake however. soft pansy players and the carebears who told them, their true problem is squads, so people who think - and still think - they speak for newcomers layed the words into their mouth. squads were no problem until someone started complaining, and until people started to blame it. then came the fear of losing players. but someone who quits because others are better at a game than oneself will not really quit for that reason.

 

i have no solution. i see mechwarrior has solved it by putting all squads into its own queue, without any matchmaking. larger amount of players play squads. you can squad up to 12 people. it was just a question of developing that culture. sometimes a battle is over in a few minutes and one side gets rolled, you dont see people complaining non stop, you just queue the next. however mwo has no ranks, so putting all players into one big squad queue isn’t dilated.

i see warthunder simply puts you in a temporary virtual squad and matches those into chunks with other squads. yet again i see culture developing through it.

 

what i could see for star conflict is introducing at least the concept of players to group for the same game, even if they are not put on the same side, as a social feature. but for true teamplay, both the culture of the players, as one can see through the comments, and the devs, would have to change.

 

however the biggest mistake imho was to assume squads are automatically better and more dangerous together, than randoms. that is complete BS. if randoms know each other, and i know a lot of seasoned players from their playstyle, they can become just as dangerous as a squad, while 4 nubs who just founded their own little corp will be terrible. if the MM then assumes a few newomcers to be hardcore vets, just because they squad, they will stop doing it. and if people cant play with friends, they will leave, and you have a natural filter for unsocial players.

 

this is a self fullfilling prophecy, and i can only say, this is a total dev-side failure, and all the whining and the excuses coming how hard it is in the special case of SC are exactly that.

but i also say its not easy, with the decisions made in the past, to simply correct it over night.

1 hour ago, g4borg said:

 

however the biggest mistake imho was to assume squads are automatically better and more dangerous together, than randoms. that is complete BS.

 

Heh heh and heh.

 

I have few question for you. I assume that you think that you are good player (don’t we all). 

Do you play league?

Also do you play league when top russian teams play?

(If you don’t then you don’t know what league is)

How many games in this league is close?

 

I was in one of top teams and from my expiriance it is just farming and end score 20:0.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, g4borg said:

 

if randoms know each other, and i know a lot of seasoned players from their playstyle, they can become just as dangerous as a squad,

 

4 good randoms will never win against good squad.

Never! 

I played in good squad. 

We didn’t lose single game that we played.

4 players that are all good and all on TS will lose game only against better squad. Never against randoms.

 

And yes I don’t like to see squads in PvP because when you drop in as random on side that have bad squad good squad will farm you no metter if you are excelent player.

 

1 hour ago, g4borg said:

while 4 nubs who just founded their own little corp will be terrible

 

That is correct.

 

1 hour ago, g4borg said:

 

 and if people cant play with friends, they will leave, and you have a natural filter for unsocial players.

 

 

 

They can play league with friends.

 

Also I would have np if devs implement  regular PvP just for squads. But please no hot joining fom single players. Just squads vs squads

 

 

 

On 13.12.2017 at 8:30 AM, WolfKhanGeneral said:

I’ll start with saying that facing kill squads is what makes this game fun and enjoyable for those looking for a challenge, and there will always be those that complain, but they are the minority. …

I get your point and I am sad that the state of SC has banned squads (for good reasons). But I fear the critics are not the minority.

Please understand, if you and your friends are so organized that you bring together squads, please take the chance and play leagues or tourneys, or even dreadnaughts …

Super organized squads are dangerous for PvP because the can suck out fun so quick…

I hardly can get a sheme to get my dailies consitently, not to speak of organized and timed dreadnaughts… I just come in to have fun - I do not want to organize my daily  life time  after events in  SC … I cannot, becauses of something called real life ![:dntknw:](<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/dntknw.gif “:dntknw:”)

 

3 hours ago, g4borg said:

… l a newcomer. i do think, facing kill squads makes one a harder player however. but you have to be ready to do it, and it should not be forced upon you.  …

I think that is the best point raised so far. Let there be a niche for kill squads, but not in the most low-threshold competitive play :: PvP !

 

But I also think that 2-squad teams is good in PvP and could be elaborated a bit more: lets say ther’s a pool of random vets that would check a box that makes them possible instructors for newbees in lower PvP, not to win but to make them comfortable with the PvP and maps and tips etc, to let them stay, these instructors would get iridium or other currency of high value for vets (or they maybe even choos, so they can advance and change grinding for community work/help) … or newbees could have a npc-wingman ship in lower PvP/PvE/Coop that they could give targets etc… Why not reward community help and fair team play in lower ranks?

On 2/18/2018 at 9:51 AM, avarshina said:

  1. Please understand, if you and your friends are so organized that you bring together squads, please take the chance and play leagues or tourney, or even dreadnaughts …

 

2. I think that is the best point raised so far. Let there be a niche for kill squads, but not in the most low-threshold competitive play :: PVP 

 

  1. to be honest, I’m getting there on the organized front, but looking at it from a corporation perspective, ‘leagues’frowns upon corporation teams. there is no venue for a corporation to bring intself into and represent itself as a whole in leagues, and it’s hard to get a team online at one point being limited by only having so few players to choose from, only being able to bring in new available players at certain times, as well as booting to make room for active players.

 

tournaments are stuck in t3. that sucks.

 

dread battles have their place, but you need to have a good active corp. working on that bit.

 

  1. make another pvp queue, perhaps bring back realistic gamemode.

 

Or, simply place ranks 13+ as a place where squads of up to 3-4 get games easily, which would condense squads into one tier. the one that’s supposed to be challenging.

On 2/18/2018 at 8:03 AM, GatoGrande said:

  1. 4 good randoms will never win against good squad.

 

  1. I played in good squad. 

We didn’t lose single game that we played.

 

  1. 4 players that are all good and all on TS will lose game only against better squad. Never against randoms.

 

  1. And yes I don’t like to see squads in PvP because when you drop in as random on side that have bad squad good squad will farm you no metter if you are excelent player.

 

  1. They can play league with friends.

 

 

 

 

 

  1. Depends on the players and communication or simple spacial battle awareness of the pilots. written communication is just as effective as spoken, sometimes even better.

 

  1. everyone has those runs, they never last.

 

  1. incorrect

 

  1. that’s a matchmaker issue where the randoms make the difference. as for the squads, experience will come through hardship, and hardship is needed to improve the playerbase on all levels.

 

  1. perhaps like, 2 times out of the year that they play before the friends quit the game, and then they need new friends, which are hard to come by, even harder to get on at the same time. especially with so low numbers allowed in a single league team. most league teams will be randoms who have next to no experience in realistic game-modes, which is a tradgedy in terms of competitive play. We need corporation league listings, one team with every corporation member on that team.

If you’re looking for actual competitive play, that needs to happen. Most league ‘teams’ are going to be simple nubs. allot of current league teams will think that they’re doing great, but they’re just farming the nubs who waltz in not knowing what to expect, if they can even get a game at all, on a server that has good ping for that matter.

 

If you think that russians pilots are inherently better because they usually get their prefferred servers, feel free to see what happens when they hit up a 300 ping server and the non-russian team catches 40 ping or less. honestly, the only way it’s going to be fair is if both teams have the same ping.  

1 hour ago, WolfKhanGeneral said:

 

  1. Depends on the players and communication or simple spacial battle awareness of the pilots. written communication is just as effective as spoken, sometimes even better.

 

  1. everyone has those runs, they never last.

 

  1. incorrect

 

  1. that’s a matchmaker issue where the randoms make the difference. as for the squads, experience will come through hardship, and hardship is needed to improve the playerbase on all levels.

 

  1. perhaps like, 2 times out of the year that they play before the friends quit the game, and then they need new friends, which are hard to come by, even harder to get on at the same time. especially with so low numbers allowed in a single league team. most league teams will be randoms who have next to no experience in realistic game-modes, which is a tradgedy in terms of competitive play. We need corporation league listings, one team with every corporation member on that team.

If you’re looking for actual competitive play, that needs to happen. Most league ‘teams’ are going to be simple nubs. allot of current league teams will think that they’re doing great, but they’re just farming the nubs who waltz in not knowing what to expect, if they can even get a game at all, on a server that has good ping for that matter.

 

1 hour ago, WolfKhanGeneral said:

If you think that russians pilots are inherently better because they usually get their prefferred servers,

 

I don’t think that they are better because of servers I just think that then game is most populated and you can play against realy good teams.

 

It is not like in US prime time when we have just one team farming.

 

1 hour ago, WolfKhanGeneral said:

 

 honestly, the only way it’s going to be fair is if both teams have the same ping.  

 

Indeed that would be fair but

soon we will all play just on one server.

 

 

1.  2. 3.  4. 

 

Every one have own experience.

My are four years of playing this.

 

Easiest way to win is in good squad.

4 man squads were removed because of excessive farming and ruining experience to new players. Especially because of good players were farming in T2 and T3 back then.

 

Leagues were formed because of that.     

 

I was playing league from start of it.

League are max rang ships as you know. But the feeling for me was and still is like T2 farming. Better team farm worse one and final score is 20:0 in 85%. 10% are when you get an equal team. 5% when you get better  opponent and you are farmed.

 

If I was developer I would remove squads long ago. Even squads of two players. How ever I would implement regular PvP just for players in squads. Not like leagues but like max number of 12 players on each side all squads from 2 to max 4 players.

 

I started to play this game with 11 friends.

12 of us.  We almost never played in squads but we did queue all in same time. So I can say that I played with friends and against them. And it was fun. 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, WolfKhanGeneral said:

 

they play before the friends quit the game,

 

This is real issue of all problems here.

Why they quit game.

Do you think they quit game because they wasn’t able to play in squad with you?

I know some of my friends left because of squads farming.

But that was not only reason,

some left because it was needed to much grinding. Some because of real life.

Some of them left when after hard work to build destroyers those destroyers were nerfed and Targa came to wipe floor with them.  

And so on. 

I’m down to just two of my old friends in this game that started game with me. 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, GatoGrande said:

 

This is real issue of all problems here.

Why they quit game.

Do you think they quit game because they wasn’t able to play in squad with you?

I know some of my friends left because of squads farming.

But that was not only reason,

some left because it was needed to much grinding. Some because of real life.

Some of them left when after hard work to build destroyers those destroyers were nerfed and Targa came to wipe floor with them.  

And so one. 

I’m down to just two of my old friends in this game that started game with me. 

 

9

Yes, this is true. There is no point to create any new corporations at this point. There is simply too few people left.

16 hours ago, WolfKhanGeneral said:

Or, simply place ranks 13+ as a place where squads of up to 3-4 get games easily, which would condense squads into one tier. the one that’s supposed to be challenging.

 

14 hours ago, GatoGrande said:

How ever I would implement regular PvP just for players in squads. Not like leagues but like max number of 12 players on each side all squads from 2 to max 4 players…

 

Those are really nice ideas, I never thought of PvP with exclusive squads from rank 13 on for example …

 

I wonder why a game like SOTA2 has this success, and SC not – I mean the integration of prof online-game sports and casual play that seems to be possible with SOTA2. i s it the type of map with the nps (ai bot portion) or what?

39 minutes ago, avarshina said:

Those are really nice ideas, I never thought of PvP with exclusive squads from rank 13 on for example …

1

 

 

15 hours ago, GatoGrande said:

 

If I was developer I would remove squads long ago. Even squads of two players. How ever I would implement regular PvP just for players in squads. Not like leagues but like max number of 12 players on each side all squads from 2 to max 4 players.

2

 

If this is implemented we can get back Captains games and Capture all enemy beacons back.

 

This would be also possible in regular PvP if we remove hot joining.

 

12 hours ago, SunnySweet said:

If this is implemented we can get back Captains games and Capture all enemy beacons back.

 

This would be also possible in regular PvP if we remove hot joining.

I do not want Combat Recon to be back without the voting system. I do not want to be randomly chosen by the Matchmaker.

Another option is that one of three most voted players is able to pick up an artifact that resets the match and puts you as the Captain of your team.

And yes, that’s without the hot-joining option.

On 3/1/2018 at 9:21 AM, GatoGrande said:

Do you think they quit game because they wasn’t able to play in squad with you?

yes. not being able to play together was next to the grind the main reason to quit the game. i do know a lot of people who complained about that, yes.

 

i dont know a single person who quit because he found he gets farmed.

but i know, that people who do not quit, answer the question with “i dont like to get farmed”. well boohoo who does.

 

On 3/1/2018 at 8:39 AM, GatoGrande said:

Especially because of good players were farming in T2 and T3 back then.

T2? yes. T3? lol, no. t3 was the main tier for years. the main farming tiers were the ones with less veteran population, like t2 and t4 in the time t5 was already going.

also, many who farmed like that didn’t even do it in squads. they actually went where they had no squads to face.

 

when the gravi disturbed the wolf-m meta, the tier mixing got introduced, or adaptive was bugged, or whatever was the problem of the month, things changed constantly, so it’s hard to say what the problem was at which time anyway.

 

On 3/1/2018 at 8:39 AM, GatoGrande said:

Leagues were formed because of that.     

leagues were formed way too late. when it came out, it was empty and the damage was already done, we already had a huge exodus of players. it took a long time to build up enough “propaganda” to get people back into it.

 

On 2/18/2018 at 4:03 PM, GatoGrande said:

Do you play league?

no. i played leagues in start, and tried it later again, but it is not the same as playing a large game, and it was sometimes just disgusting gameplay full of cheese.

i did play ctb in t4 and later t5, and even back then in t3 a lot, so i like the game mode, but it is also not the thing i wanna play all the time.

besides pvp, the only special mode i liked was tournaments.

 

On 2/18/2018 at 4:03 PM, GatoGrande said:

4 good randoms will never win against good squad.

you should read properly. i said, if players who come in randomly - so a no squad game - know each other, they can be just as dangerous.

randoms do not even play against squads.

 

i know a lot of players who do lots of pvp, and even if we never spoke a word to each other, if we land in the same game, we play together, synergize. after a few years of play, you start to know the nicknames, the styles, even weaknesses, the temper, etc. - after all our playerbase isn’t thaat big.

 

On 2/18/2018 at 4:03 PM, GatoGrande said:

And yes I don’t like to see squads in PvP because when you drop in as random on side that have bad squad good squad will farm you no metter if you are excelent player.

it’s easy to be “excellent” in a good squad, or have good stats, if you have experienced wingmen, and especially if you never play solo, and only play where the small games are.

 

helping a weaker squad as random to even the odds is an honor, especially if i know the players on the other side.

if i see the weaker squad gave its best, i do not mind such a matchup, even on the losing side.

 

what i do mind is, that usually the stronger squad gets even the stronger randoms. and that has to do with handling squads simply wrong, and is not the squads fault.

or that restrictive rulesets atm. put players into a 2v2, with no hotjoiners, or hotjoiners arriving almost at the end of game. i’d rather wait a few more minutes for a bigger game.

 

the ability to go directly for enemy spawn, and win by early pressure is btw. imho an abuse of broken game dynamics, and cheap victories because of how spawning works. i do not count that as fairplay or sportsmanship, but even learning to avoid being pressured like that is important. still, if someone sees that as “squadplay”, i do not.

 

On 3/1/2018 at 8:39 AM, GatoGrande said:

My are four years of playing this.

that would mean, that you were probably not playing in the golden time of t3 in '13, where we had no squad matchmaking, and squads kept coming. and nobody complained.

 

until they started making it harder to squad. but adding weight on squads turned out to be only a natural filter, so that only the best players would squad further. 

because i explain again: if you add a weight to a squad made up of top players, nothing changes in the maths. if you however add the weight to a mediocre, or weak squad, everything for them changes.

 

On 3/1/2018 at 8:39 AM, GatoGrande said:

If I was developer I would remove squads long ago. Even squads of two players.

and how would you be different from the devs here? your game might fail even faster!

 

if you were a developer i would hope you would sit down, take the literature, and learn the stuff. and you would discover, that focusing on the social aspect of a game is key to its success. because the large majority of players are socially motivated. and they contain just as many bada$$ players, so don’t think by not taking those you keep the good ones.

 

you even ignore your own skill curve. you said yourself, you played in squads. i am not sure who you exactly are, but if you did that, we most likely met. you ignore your own development into that good player you say to be, and that this development included playing with - and against - squads.

 

just tell me how someone in a pure solo-queue should ever have learned the value and usage of a wolf-m. without support, without others playing similar ships, that ship is a weak choice. and still for years it was the cornerstone of esb or wpk gameplay.

 


note gato: i am not against a pure endgame squad solution

like, e.g. trying to match squads into their own queue, with an opt-in for soloers (e.g. by creating a one-man-squad). mwo does that and its cool there. and certainly mwo has a lot of weaknesses conflict does not have, still, squadding there is normal, just as losing and winning games is.

 

i just protest against the brainless vilification of squads, as an excuse why the mm does not work. it’s the attitude of a moron.

 

On 3/1/2018 at 11:54 PM, SunnySweet said:

If this is implemented we can get back Captains games

that mode just never worked right, even if it was the easiest way to defeat ESB.

 

i like the mwo approach yet again, there the “VIP” is an NPC controlled mech you have to escort along a random path. that way, the whole game mode makes sense.

5 hours ago, g4borg said:

i like the mwo approach yet again, there the “VIP” is an NPC controlled mech you have to escort along a random path. that way, the whole game mode makes sense.

Nice!

 

I was long thinking if the NPC (AI) part of the SOTA2 map was part of it’s success? (dunno, played the free for linux beta version only few times years ago)

 

Another thing crosses my mind: will the ranks 16, 17 and up be new endgame? I mean, will there be attempts to start anew and separate it technically and socially from casual play (ship-ranks 5-15) and freshmen play (r1-4)??? Maybe thats why the Wolfhound is rather weak - because in future it will mixed in competition (battles) against its own kind of post r15 endgame (esports) ships?

if the captain could be an ai variant, I’d personally start them in slow ships, base speed, probably dessies upgraded to a high point where they won’t go poof for a good 3-6 minutes of good heavy focus fire along a fixed arc where the two opposites, an empire and a jericho variant for example, equally balanced so that without anything else hitting them, the final shots would essentially be them blowing eachother up at about the same time. their end would be in a sort of broadside, meaning that they would meet in the middle of the map and decrease speed until they’re perfectly broadsiding with all of their cannons. it’s important that no non ai ships or debri/asteroids be able to slow their path. this would keep the game steadily moving and call for battle in large en’mass and force. the captain ai would focus on any other ship using meson cannons or a heavy blaster variant and so on for good old show until the enemy dessie comes in range, I’d imagine about 2-3km where it will immediately focus all cannons and modules, probably mainly cannons at it’s nemesis.