Turtles are OP

Ships
#1

Everything needs to have counterplay. What is the weakness of a Turtle? Getting behind them?

 

  • Shields don’t prevent them from getting into tight spaces – they’re just as maneuverable as a ship without a shield, as the shields just clip through level geometry. This means I can’t use the terrain to my advantage to get behind them.

  • They’re way too fast and can outrun even an interceptor, the fastest of ships, while the interceptor is boosting (tested with Dagger AE) 

  • Rotation speed better than Fighter’s (tested with Machete AE). It sounds normal that clunky frigates couldn’t outmaneuver them, as maneuverability is a frigate’s weakness, but a fighter not being able to get around a Turtle? Once they start ramming into you, it’s impossible to get away because they’re faster than all ships and have better rotate speeds.

 

So, uh, how exactly are we supposed to get behind them? Catch them off-guard? Use an invisibility cloak? Only having those is absurd. There is not enough counterplay to Turtles.

 

Proposed changes:

 

  • Shields collide with terrain, making it difficult to maneuver Turtles in tight spaces

  • Speed is changed so it’s slower than a fighter, but still faster than a frigate

  • Rotation speed is changed similarly

  • Hull strength increased

  • Weapon damage increased

  • Weapon range decreased

 

Right now Turtles are a miserable attempt at a mix between a tank and whatever else. Just stick with the tank – the added stuff just makes them worse from a gameplay standpoint. 

 

#2

Turtles can only be damaged frontally by either explosive weapons (Coil Mortar etc) or fighter Singularity Cannons.    I would suggest maybe try using Singularity on your fighters since it will do more damage to the cruiser at the end of Fire Support anyways and it’s great for killing swarms of deimomans.

 

 It isn’t really until tier 3 that fighters are fast enough to outrun any of the enemies in PVE and really only federation fighters built for speed at that.    Try this…use Singularity cannon,Rank 2 sensor/weapon range implant, Rank 4 strafe implant, the rank 6 projectile speed implant, and equip 1 horizon module in your CPU slot.   This should make it much easier to dodge both turtles when they get close and the cruiser missiles.

#3

“It isn’t really until tier 3 that fighters are fast enough to outrun any of the enemies in PVE”

Dagger AE and Machete AE are ranks 4 and 5

 

“This should make it much easier to dodge both turtles when they get close”

No I don’t think you understand. When a turtle gets close, it is _impossible _to get away without someone else drawing its attention/killing it. I have the +75% strafe and +20% turn speed crew implants installed, and I still can’t get away from them after I’m being pushed by their shield. Their rotation is locked to your ship, and if you try to boost away they catch up because they’re faster, and if you try to rotate past them, they just instantly rotate their shield along with you.

#4

turtles are just one of many ways pve is terrible.

#5

What is the weakness of a Turtle?

 

Coil mortar, eclipse launcher, singularity cannon or kinetic supercharger. Also guided torps. Also skill.

#6

Turtles are easy to kill. But it’s needed something some players forget. As millanbel says skill and teamplay. You can kill them with any weapon. You only need to fire at them from different angles than your teammates. 

#7

Sounds like OP needs a coil mortar and a nice big serving of GitGud cornflakes.

#8

Everything needs to have counterplay. What is the weakness of a Turtle?

They have enormously big Hit Box for explosion weapons because of that, which is even easier to hit than regular ships (not like it is hard to do, but just an example)

#9

Read from post 24 to last:
[http://forum.star-conflict.com/index.php?/topic/30411-i-got-some-questions/?p=364606](< base_url >/index.php?/topic/30411-i-got-some-questions/?p=364606)

#10

And we have another example of not taking proper equipment for the mission. Any class have weapons that will damage turtles in front. However there is not much saying that explosive weapons on frigates/destroyers and singularity on fighters is the proper equipment for this mission. 

#11

is this a troll post?

 

equip any aoe weapon and git gud.

#12

I honestly don’t see an issue in them either, just have explosive weapons and you are good to go, PvE is mostly depending on the right ship setup anyways.

#13

well i would just read what he writes

he has problems killing turtles with low rank ships

 

so it might be a problem in low rank ships to do some of these missions

 

and as experienced player, you have to think back in those shoes, how pve is, if you start the game.

 

it’s quite clear, once you got a guard with coils or a styx, stuff like that is easy, and its easy to say git gud. But as always in such discussions, its beside the point.

the OP has to accept, it would be easier if he unlocked some ships and weapons which are better to “farm pve”, and synergizing ships is better done in pvp, as are also many of the mentioned ships rather pvp oriented.

 

for the game design it means, it’s one feedback of early players, that might need a closer look into which pve’s are available at start, and probably there are ideas how to balance the lowest pve modes for t2 ships better.

as always, lower tiers need a very fast progression so players can try more different ships early on, and its never bad to revisit that every 1-2 months until its really fluid.

#14

well i would just read what he writes

he has problems killing turtles with low rank ships

 

so it might be a problem in low rank ships to do some of these missions

 

and as experienced player, you have to think back in those shoes, how pve is, if you start the game.

 

OP has templar and templar s - one of the best ships from lower tiers for this pve… Both perfectly capable not even in playing in that pve, but also soloing it. What he needs - is a little experience and thinking - what type of damage is there? Where are the spawns? Should I tank the damage (with guard) or EM scatter and kill all from hiding (LRF)? He has some fighters and commands pretty capable of equipping singularity cannon. And in tiers he is playing there are only up to 12 turtles IIRC per game.

The problem is not with turtles - In general problems are with:

  1. players don’t know they can select map for PvE
  2. players are forcing ships “I have to level this up” for maps not suitable for the ship type
  3. players are taking ships not suitable for the map, kamikazing into first enemy group and wants to be carried 
  4. players are refusing to think how to improve the gameplay experience “I came here for pew pew, not for the thinking!” 
  5. players are refusing to teamplay “we have 3 destroyers I have engie, ecm and recon. ECM it is!”

 

Those are the basic problems with PvE. Additionaly - with just 20 positions in our contact list it’s VERY hard to organize proper squads for pve. Map is ok, enemies are challenging, but not too hard. I would say that fire support and defense contract are the best balanced maps in the PvE category.

#15

OP has templar and templar s - one of the best ships from lower tiers for this pve… Both perfectly capable not even in playing in that pve, but also soloing it. What he needs - is a little experience and thinking - what type of damage is there? Where are the spawns? Should I tank the damage (with guard) or EM scatter and kill all from hiding (LRF)? He has some fighters and commands pretty capable of equipping singularity cannon. And in tiers he is playing there are only up to 12 turtles IIRC per game.

The problem is not with turtles - In general problems are with:

  1. players don’t know they can select map for PvE
  2. players are forcing ships “I have to level this up” for maps not suitable for the ship type
  3. players are taking ships not suitable for the map, kamikazing into first enemy group and wants to be carried 
  4. players are refusing to think how to improve the gameplay experience “I came here for pew pew, not for the thinking!” 
  5. players are refusing to teamplay “we have 3 destroyers I have engie, ecm and recon. ECM it is!”

 

Those are the basic problems with PvE. Additionaly - with just 20 positions in our contact list it’s VERY hard to organize proper squads for pve. Map is ok, enemies are challenging, but not too hard. I would say that fire support and defense contract are the best balanced maps in the PvE category.

 

so basicly, “turtles are not the problem, what i think is the problem is the problem”, even if i was not really sure, if your answer was really to what you quoted, as i think my critique was not mainly at you :slight_smile:

 

but i was refering to how to read the problems of the player. and criticized exactly the mindset of veterans, who think, just because they see the picture more clearly, everything is allright, and giving answers like that.

we have to remember, getting more insight also loses us the starting perspective, acting like we “know” what people want in a tier, most of us played actually “in reality” for as short time as possible, is a double edged sword. Even if we started it several times (as we both have)

 

he said something about machete. he seemed to “expect”, that all ships should be able to do pve.

in this regard, the answer is, as you point out, no.

 

its still dual information:

   a) to us, that players early have problems with things, we dont consider to be a problem, so maybe if we really think we are the guys who know what other people want, also should listen to it seriously

   b) to the devs its still a feedback, that players expect something, and this means some things are “ambigious” to them.

 

to your list…

if people dont find things, it is usually a sign of missing “accessibility”

however i stopped criticizing it, because making things accessible seems to be done by “disabling complexity”.

otherwise, yeah, stuff is valid, except you cant force people to get smarter without expecting it to happen.

which is kinda the art of game design, to make people learn while playing, how to play better.

 

also of course, i wasnt saying turtles are a problem, and of course, “nerfing the turtle” would be wrong as reaction :slight_smile:

 

it is a valid critique imho, that players in low tiers expect the early missions to be solvable by any kind of ship they equip. and if not, this could be noted to the player, by suggesting e.g. something on mission failure. some games go this length, if they truly want to keep their “trial until success” type of gameplay.

#16

From introduction of this premium ship parts, I did over 1200 PvE missions on different difficulties. If I see a pilot that looks like he doesn’t know what is he doing I am trying to get the information what he thinks the problem is. Some are just ignoring me, small percentage are trying to figure out the setups especially when I show them how to get the mission done solo with full shields at the end. In rare cases they even want to squad up and learn. Majority though answers “I don’t see a problem. If I lose with this team, maybe next one will be better”. Most of the players in PvE of second difficulty level are playing in very similar way - kill first target, move to the next, kill next target, move to the next, mob killed a player - oh well, I will read some comic book. For Fire Support and Defense Contract they are really surprised that they can regenerate hull, even when most of them don’t have ANY shield booster/hull repair. Also I repeatedly see engineer frigates without any auras. Or even without stations. Barrier, warp gate, sometimes shield repair - looks like stock ship, cause most of that players are flying with lasers. So - yes that should give some feedback to developers. What I noticed the main problem is a total lack of information. Some hints like “enemy is vulnerable to explosive weapons” or “green box will repair hull of your ship and your teammates by xxxx HP” and “red box will give your team  +50% damage boost for 12 seconds” can make a lot of difference. Also icon description of “select scenario” should be renamed to “select PvE mission” and it should switch places with that big PvE banner. 

I will not even go to duplicators problem - from those over 1200 missions, I noted that players used duplicators 17 (seventeen) times, 15 of which were in highest difficulty level. I spent over 100 duplicators to revive teammates in that time, of which 57 refused to play further. 

 

Sorry OP for hijacking your thread, if any mod thinks this discussion should be moved elsewhere, please feel free to do so.

#17

From introduction of this premium ship parts, I did over 1200 PvE missions on different difficulties. If I see a pilot that looks like he doesn’t know what is he doing I am trying to get the information what he thinks the problem is. Some are just ignoring me, small percentage are trying to figure out the setups especially when I show them how to get the mission done solo with full shields at the end. In rare cases they even want to squad up and learn. Majority though answers “I don’t see a problem. If I lose with this team, maybe next one will be better”. Most of the players in PvE of second difficulty level are playing in very similar way - kill first target, move to the next, kill next target, move to the next, mob killed a player - oh well, I will read some comic book. For Fire Support and Defense Contract they are really surprised that they can regenerate hull, even when most of them don’t have ANY shield booster/hull repair. Also I repeatedly see engineer frigates without any auras. Or even without stations. Barrier, warp gate, sometimes shield repair - looks like stock ship, cause most of that players are flying with lasers. So - yes that should give some feedback to developers. What I noticed the main problem is a total lack of information. Some hints like “enemy is vulnerable to explosive weapons” or “green box will repair hull of your ship and your teammates by xxxx HP” and “red box will give your team  +50% damage boost for 12 seconds” can make a lot of difference. Also icon description of “select scenario” should be renamed to “select PvE mission” and it should switch places with that big PvE banner. 

I will not even go to duplicators problem - from those over 1200 missions, I noted that players used duplicators 17 (seventeen) times, 15 of which were in highest difficulty level. I spent over 100 duplicators to revive teammates in that time, of which 57 refused to play further. 

 

Sorry OP for hijacking your thread, if any mod thinks this discussion should be moved elsewhere, please feel free to do so.

Excelent post niri!. What ive seen from PVE is that most players: 1) dont know how to play the mission properly; 2) dont know how to fit their ships properly (i think that every ship is capable of being efective at T2-3 PVE); 3) dont know/care they can improve; 4) dont possess basic shooter skills (aiming and dodging); 5) dont bother to understand game/module mechanics (plenty of commands/engies activating all buffs at the first second of the round). These players keep repeating their behaviour, reason why you see them performing awfully bad at T4-5 PVE (awful builds, awful use of active modules, awful shooting and dodging, awful positioning and situational awareness, etc), being the firsts to die and expect as usual to be carried by others. The problem i see is that these kind of players lack proper instruction to the game, where one of the most effective ways would be to be mentored by other more experienced players (imo the mentoring system is a great idea, but only untill R4 is way too short. Mentoring should last at least to R9). Other methods could be a more advanced tutorial system (similar than the actual one, but expanded to specific use of modules, dodging and using certain tricks), although, apparently for russians, this seem to be more of a western cultural problem where players are used to be baby sitted (i agree with them).

#18

If I see a pilot that looks like he doesn’t know what is he doing I am trying to get the information what he thinks the problem is. Some are just ignoring me, small percentage are trying to figure out the setups especially when I show them how to get the mission done solo with full shields at the end. In rare cases they even want to squad up and learn. Majority though answers “I don’t see a problem. If I lose with this team, maybe next one will be better”. Most of the players in PvE of second difficulty level are playing in very similar way - kill first target, move to the next, kill next target, move to the next, mob killed a player - oh well, I will read some comic book. For Fire Support and Defense Contract they are really surprised that they can regenerate hull, even when most of them don’t have ANY shield booster/hull repair. Also I repeatedly see engineer frigates without any auras. Or even without stations. Barrier, warp gate, sometimes shield repair - looks like stock ship, cause most of that players are flying with lasers. So - yes that should give some feedback to developers. What I noticed the main problem is a total lack of information. Some hints like “enemy is vulnerable to explosive weapons” or “green box will repair hull of your ship and your teammates by xxxx HP” and “red box will give your team  +50% damage boost for 12 seconds” can make a lot of difference. Also icon description of “select scenario” should be renamed to “select PvE mission” and it should switch places with that big PvE banner. 

I will not even go to duplicators problem - from those over 1200 missions, I noted that players used duplicators 17 (seventeen) times, 15 of which were in highest difficulty level. I spent over 100 duplicators to revive teammates in that time, of which 57 refused to play further. 

 

Sorry OP for hijacking your thread, if any mod thinks this discussion should be moved elsewhere, please feel free to do so.

 

I have similar tales to tell doing PvE lately.

 

I was doing R10 fire support in a guard as its easy to tank eveything on the map and dampen the missle spam when i got to soloing the destroyer at the end (yes they all died) i had one player comment that i should set my phase shield to Kinetic… against an enemy that did only thermal damage at the time. Its baffling how someone can make the little effort to figure out how a guards phase shield works but cannot identify incoming damage types.

 

Another player at R13 commented at the start that the team should not expect much from him as he had just got his new ship, fair enough. Im a big fan of initial levelling of ones ship through PvE as a good fit will see you through without much issue and its a decent use of a x2. He brought a command and immeadiatly charged into the 1st wave, snipers and all. Instadead. Its bizzare that people will suspect ahead of time their limitations but still try to be a hero instead of working with the team especially in a team boosting ship.

 

In both these occasions players simply refused to respawn. It seems to me that the ignorance from not caring to learn for themselves or ask someone/the information not being spelled out in black and white by the game is irrelevent. In either case those that want to get better will, but only through their own efforts. Explaining one thing to a player will only lead to another ten things that a decent player/games difficulty level took for granted to begin with.

 

OT: Yes turtles are strong but hardly unbeatable, plenty of good suggestions here on how to deal with them, or use the spectate function before you respawn and see how others are able to do it. Actually that watch the point leader tip was in the game for a while.

#19

I have similar tales to tell doing PvE lately.

 

I was doing R10 fire support in a guard as its easy to tank eveything on the map and dampen the missle spam when i got to soloing the destroyer at the end (yes they all died) i had one player comment that i should set my phase shield to Kinetic… against an enemy that did only thermal damage at the time. Its baffling how someone can make the little effort to figure out how a guards phase shield works but cannot identify incoming damage types.

 

Another player at R13 commented at the start that the team should not expect much from him as he had just got his new ship, fair enough. Im a big fan of initial levelling of ones ship through PvE as a good fit will see you through without much issue and its a decent use of a x2. He brought a command and immeadiatly charged into the 1st wave, snipers and all. Instadead. Its bizzare that people will suspect ahead of time their limitations but still try to be a hero instead of working with the team especially in a team boosting ship.

 

In both these occasions players simply refused to respawn. It seems to me that the ignorance from not caring to learn for themselves or ask someone/the information not being spelled out in black and white by the game is irrelevent. In either case those that want to get better will, but only through their own efforts. Explaining one thing to a player will only lead to another ten things that a decent player/games difficulty level took for granted to begin with.

 

OT: Yes turtles are strong but hardly unbeatable, plenty of good suggestions here on how to deal with them, or use the spectate function before you respawn and see how others are able to do it. Actually that watch the point leader tip was in the game for a while.

They think it’s kinetic because those kind of missiles on the cruiser look yellow. Remember full ship info and incoming damage effects are probably not on by default and players are left guessing forever until someone tells them or they actually go for a browse through the settings to see what’s there ;p

#20

They think it’s kinetic because those kind of missiles on the cruiser look yellow. Remember full ship info and incoming damage effects are probably not on by default and players are left guessing forever until someone tells them or they actually go for a browse through the settings to see what’s there ;p

 

I played for a few months without afterburners. All the way into t2. The tutorial was really bad back then, and I didn’t think to check keybinds for other useful stuff.