The class, the subclasses, their purposes...

 

ECMs… mmm… okay, i will deal with it. You convinced me = SOLVED

 

Its not … Two days ago battle starts I m flying r12 empire gunship (level 8, mk4 laser, two vernies) and a guy called ImMyOwnMasterNow  (Now I know who that was) killed me twice in a row with his premium ECM r11 (with much more better bonuses - P2W?). I was puzzled how fast he killed me and how little damage I managed to inflict with my gunship. Also I recognized great skill of that pilot. So I decided to take my ECM r11 level 5 just to see how much damage i can inflict to his ECM with my ECM. I manage to find him alone and dogfight starts and it lasts for about a min or so … I knew that he will kill me eventually and it is perfectly ok (better ship, exellent skill). I died. Next round situation is repeating but this time after 30 sec of dogfighting I decided to lure him in front of whole my team (two guards, one engy, two gunships) and all of them start to fire at him… Hmmm -  i thought - he will run away or we gonna kill him finally … but noooo … he stayed and continue dogfight with me 20–30 sec then he killed one of gunships and then he run away with almost undamaged hull. Whole fleet lose 1 min to shoot at interceptor and he goes away.

 

Well, yes we were terrible pilots and our ship setups suck and he was great - NO - truth is - we were 6 average T4 pilots with 6 average t4 ships  and he had great skill and OP ship. Why OP? Because however skillful pilot of F16 is he cant fly over whole Russia and expect to survive. If a skill is OP nerf down ship or tank or weapons or whatever so that balance could be achieved and to prevent unlogic and ridiculous stuff to happen. Or if the Takamina has great skill does it  mean that whole wing of average pilots cant kill him in reasonable time frame?

 

How many average pilots is needed to kill one skillful 10, 15, 20 ? Same situation happened to me last month. Me, rennie ashll and six other guys in perfectly aligned  formation couldn’t kill ecm 40 sec or so.

He had three adaptives if it was the same build as his last video. I am therefore not surprised that you didn’t manage to kill him. Did you take out a tackler and try with that?

Millan it doesnt matter if he had 3 adaptives or leather panties. Some things shouldn’t be possible in any case. Skill or no skill. I managed it too (staying in front of whole wing for 30 - 35 sec) later in one other pvp match with my ECM.

Millan it doesnt matter if he had 3 adaptives or leather panties. Some things shouldn’t be possible in any case. Skill or no skill. I managed it too (staying in front of whole wing for 30 - 35 sec) later in one other pvp match with my ECM.

Well I don’t know. I’ll admit ECMs are harder to kill than cov ops in my tackler, but they are a lot easier to kill than recons that can cloak, copy themselves and warp away leaving behind a combination of mines, microlocators, holoships and spy drones. I really don’t see the problem with ECMs, especially not derpy full adaptive builds ^^

I think you should actually be happy that he was in an ECM and not in his cov ops… That guy is hard to kill in ANY inteceptor.

Its not … Two days ago battle starts I m flying r12 empire gunship (level 8, mk4 laser, two vernies) and a guy called ImMyOwnMasterNow  (Now I know who that was) killed me twice in a row with his premium ECM r11 (with much more better bonuses - P2W?). I was puzzled how fast he killed me and how little damage I managed to inflict with my gunship. Also I recognized great skill of that pilot. So I decided to take my ECM r11 level 5 just to see how much damage i can inflict to his ECM with my ECM. I manage to find him alone and dogfight starts and it lasts for about a min or so … I knew that he will kill me eventually and it is perfectly ok (better ship, exellent skill). I died. Next round situation is repeating but this time after 30 sec of dogfighting I decided to lure him in front of whole my team (two guards, one engy, two gunships) and all of them start to fire at him… Hmmm -  i thought - he will run away or we gonna kill him finally … but noooo … he stayed and continue dogfight with me 20–30 sec then he killed one of gunships and then he run away with almost undamaged hull. Whole fleet lose 1 min to shoot at interceptor and he goes away.

 

Well, yes we were terrible pilots and our ship setups suck and he was great - NO - truth is - we were 6 average T4 pilots with 6 average t4 ships  and he had great skill and OP ship. Why OP? Because however skillful pilot of F16 is he cant fly over whole Russia and expect to survive. If a skill is OP nerf down ship or tank or weapons or whatever so that balance could be achieved and to prevent unlogic and ridiculous stuff to happen. Or if the Takamina has great skill does it  mean that whole wing of average pilots cant kill him in reasonable time frame?

 

How many average pilots is needed to kill one skillful 10, 15, 20 ? Same situation happened to me last month. Me, rennie ashll and six other guys in perfectly aligned  formation couldn’t kill ecm 40 sec or so.

 

 

 

You don’t understand how to kill a interceptor, then. A inty with 3 adaptive is practically untouchable. It has practically over 50% damage reduction to the shield, that is 7k on a jericho ECM. You just have to slow them down (tackler inhibitor beam, guards AoE slow, Energy siphon, Slowing field missiles, ecc…) to make the adaptives useless. Then you can kill them.

 

P.S A empire gunship isn’t the best ship for dogfighting.

 

I agree with millanbel, recon are much much worse to kill…

On the idea that interceptors are OP:

Not everything is about the kill, you need to realize.

 

Most interceptor pilots can be effectively neutered in one of three ways:

Tacklers consistently applying slows, whether it be the inhibitor beam, gravi-beam, or engine inhibitor,

ECMs chaining stuns, and

Guards using mass propulsion inhibitor.

 

Any one of these three instantly makes an interceptor pilot feel at the very best uneasy about continuing to harass or capture, and the very worst – like dead meat.

 

On top of that, all three of these make interceptor pilots easier to kill, as well as want to flee. Conveniently, they’re already organized from most useful to least for aiding in an interceptor kill.

 

Of course, there are pilots such as “ImMyOwnMasterNow”, as he has named himself, who really know how to fly their ships. This is because they tend to be very good at risk management, flying ability, and aiming. Most teams can’t cohesively counter such pilots, but that is because most teams are made up of random pilots that don’t know who they’re going to face or who they’re working with. Surprise such a pilot with two tacklers and an ECM, and they won’t be nearly as good at picking up kills.

 

On the idea that ECMs are OP:

I can agree that ECMs are extremely aggravating. Being unable to do anything but fly for ten seconds, then being unable to use any modules or afterburners for seven more, then not being able to do anything at all for four more after that can be enough to drive a pilot to ragequit.

 

Of course, there is the magic of the Proton Wall. Each reduces “controlling effects” by ~30%, if I recall correctly, stacking multiplicatively. This affects ion diffuser, stasis generator, ECM special, white noise, and IR Pulsar. Maybe spy drones, although I’m not sure. But energy drain, parasitic remodulator, engine inhibitor, and all AOE debuffs are unaffected. It may seem like an underpowered module, but it’s a life saver that tends to make ECMs much less of a threat. Stacked with the J2 implant, which reduces “controlling effects” by 20(?)%, it helps quite a bit.

 

Keep in mind that combat reboot is a hard counter to all ECM debuffs, and that recon cloak is a hard counter to energy drain.

 

Remember that you can fly as much as you like during ion diffuser.

Remember that you can shoot as much as you like during energy drain.

Remember that you can aim yourself before a stasis generator.

 

It might be difficult to kill a smart ECM pilot. But keep in mind that if you play smart, it’s difficult for an ECM to kill you, as well.

 

Yes, they’re frustrating. Yes, the Wakizashi AE is OP. No, they’re not OP.

 

On the idea that commands are underpowered:

As full disclosure, I hate flying commands.

 

On that note, I still know a bit about flying commands. There are two main niches between which commands sit: Self-buffing, and team-buffing.

 

Self-buffing commands take it upon themselves to become carries. Increased energy regeneration makes energy stability easy. Large numbers of capacitor slots increase damage capacity. As commands are either Jericho or Empire, they each have their own options for tanking – shield or hull (which is its own can of worms. Just think of it as peek-a-boo vs. smash-and-grab). Valkyrie increases damage output to nearly match that of a gunship on overdrive. Graviscanner increases forward speed, helping get in and/or out of a situation to do and/or avoid damage. The shield and hull resist buffs are merely extras, acting as if there were yet another shield or hull slot. That leaves room for some extra multipurpose modules, healing when needed.

 

I know for a fact that commands can carry a team. Build it with the right ideas, and they’re tough killing machines. Don’t ask me for ideas, though. Like I said, not a command pilot.

 

Team-buffing commands put the team first. Using Valkyrie, graviscanner, and resist buffs, they help the team deal and take damage both. Playing it careful by staying back, they can survive – and make the front lines tougher while doing so. Increased energy regeneration on top of extra capacitor slots means an easier time diffusion tanking for those times when the enemy breaks through the line. Not being an engineer generally means not being the first target, too.

 

Commands are very helpful as support. The damage and speed they give are very helpful in the short bursts they tend to be available. The resistances they give are harder to see, but can mean the difference between having 100 hull left or being in the respawn queue. Play it safe, and for goodness sake, try to learn what gets you killed before complaining.

 

Overall, commands fit a spectrum between the two niches, and are far from underpowered.

 

On the idea that tacklers are underpowered:

I hate tacklers.

 

I hate tacklers on two levels. I hate them because I have no knack for flying them, and I hate them because they are my nemesis as a covert ops pilot.

 

Tacklers are indisputably the best way to kill an interceptor. Gravibeams apply slows on command, and tend to give approaching interceptors heart attacks. With luck, a multipurpose module will be used, marking the start of a short timer in which an interceptor may fly without being slowed. Target painter makes that time less relevant, increasing damage done to the interceptor. And engine inhibitor immediately arrests an interceptor in mid-flight, sometimes making pilots wonder why their ship isn’t responding to their controls.

 

To kill an interceptor as a tackler, the goal is to slow them down. Every interceptor has a number of counters to slows – multipurpose modules with the F8 implant, cloaking, microwarping, stunning, or waiting it out inside a protective bubble. So, of course, the most effective way is to force the interceptor to use these first, and then to suddenly pop engine inhibitor while they try to get away from your team, sealing their fate. That is, of course, not always possible, but some interceptors will turn away from an attempted attack upon so much as a tickle with gravibeams.

 

But aside from being the collective nemesis of all interceptors, tacklers also play a valuable role in support. Target painter makes any target easier to kill – not just interceptors. Inhibitor beam makes any adaptive tank want to run away – and generally fail, given the range. Slowing modules help make any target easier to hit. An on-command 20% damage boost helps, too.

 

As a mostly Federation pilot, I rely on speed very, very much. Trust me when I say that tacklers are not underpowered.

@StatueofLibroty

*Interceptors: killing sprees = more score = easy rank-up. Tacklers can stops them only if the player know that his ship is a support and not an assassin! Coordination is not really here in soloQ and tacklers have a hard time doing their job… Guards are okay, it is true. ECMs won’t touch the enemy’s interceptor, it is too fast :stuck_out_tongue:

If a player like “ImMyOwnMasterNow” found a way to be the best, others can too.

*ECM are annoying, not unbeatable, read my last post and you will see that i said it was okay and SOLVED.

*I didnt say that commands are underpowered, I said that if you have MULTIPLE commands ships in the SAME TEAM it is not worth thanks to the buffs not being cumultative. It would be cool if the devs could create a tutorial on how to play each class and explain for this one that it is not worth at all taking many of them in the same team.

*I didnt say Tacklers are underpowered, I said their special module don’t fit the support-ship they are meant to be. It is confusing for a new player and he will try to go assassin-like, wich is wrong with this ship. Again a tutorial on each class should be implemented.

I also said that it is strange that the singularity gun build on them does that huge amount of damages for a support-like ship.

 

I hope I am clear now.

:wink:

The tackler is strongest if used as an assassin-ship. It can also do support, but this is actually a waste of tacklers powers.

 

The assassin-tackler is naturally very squishy, so it must depend on speed and rotation speed to evade. It is a must to equip it with speed increase modules. A cruise engine is optional, if u use it u must also use at least two engine slots with vernier and the crew rotation increase. Also of course u will need multipurp-modules to prevent being slowed down.

 

Since u will use rotation a lot to evade enemy fire, the singularity cannon is best weapon, since it can be fired only so often, the reload time can be used to evade and rotate away from enemy fire. With sing it is also easy to kill microloc fast.

 

As an assassin ship ur prime weapon is the cloak. U cloak, fly to enemy and attack only when cloak epires naturally. Enemy will be surprised. Then u have 15 sec to attack and kill. U will get hurt but u can use adaptive shield and repair to survive. Then u recloak and repeat. This goes easiest with single ships, but if u are good u can also attack ships in a group, just think about way to escape for example an asteroid to hide.

 

A slow, best the engine inhibitor, also is very useful as an assassin weapon, since if used directly after cloak enemy intie will be surprised, not use multipurpose fast enough and die. 

 

This is difficult to fly because u must look at lot of things and coordinate well, but if u do it right tackler is not underpowered and a good assiassin. Tackler as support is actually a valid option for Aces or players with bad coordination skill, but should not be seen as best way to fly tackler.

@ErikErikson

You should definitely read the former post of this thread. This ship isn’t an assassin and the singularity build should be reworked for less damages.

It is not as efficient to use a tackler as an assassin since it is not his purpose and you will surely die too often…except maybe with the singularity build…This one is broken and, for me, needs a nerf then this ship will be more often saw as it is originally: an ambushed support with a lot of slows.

Also, you can see that the only actual weapons worth to equip to a tackler are the gravi-beamer (thermal: good vs shield and hull), wich is the special designed weapon for this subclass, and the singularity gun (EM: good vs shields), wich is completly sorting out of nowhere. Not any kinetic (good vs hull) weapon is worth to equip. This is another sign that this ship isnt a finisher but only a support.

 

You could also send and eye to my previous post on my old “assassin tackler” where I though the contrary until the last post, here i explained how I wanted to use it like an assassin with a pewpew dps railgun with 50% crit chances and 80% bonus damages. I used a tactic, but not working: I was completly wrong and misled by the special module and no in-game tutorial for each class. Here it is.

@Xerrio: I do not completely understand…do u believe what i say or not?

 

I can only tell u i have played with a guy who really could fly an assassin tackler very well for months, i have seen the utter carnage he left behind. There is no doubt that a tackler is a perfect assassin ship, only rivaled by a CovOps. Though is does indeed rely on the sing cannon, as u say. Still the sing cannon build is not broken, since a similiar amout of mayhem can be reached using a CovOps. Both these builds require lotta skill, which only very few people have. 

 

Also of course a tackler is very good with a gauss cannon.

 

At the end of the day, all i can offer you is an explanation on how to build an assassin type tackler-which i did. If u believe me and use this build or not is ultimately up to you.

@ErikErikson

Yes, I believe, no i don’t like :wink:

I want the tackler to have a clearly defined role by the devs in a tutorial in-game for each class.

For the moment, if you have read my list of roles (and not subclasses! no misunderstanding here!) in the former post, I think it is a support and i find it not fair to use it like an assassin with EM damages and also not viable because of its “easy-dying” nature: 1) Vernier + some shield defense? =>You cannot escape the enemy’s team, the timer of the cloak is too big, and you do a kill for a death. (Aniways, this kill should not happen with the nerf I am asking for :p) 2) Cruise engine + adaptative shield? =>You can’t kill your opponent.

 

Aniways, my list of roles on the OP is why i don’t agree with you :stuck_out_tongue:  \o/

Ah yes, i understand. it is indeed a bit strange that a tackler can be flown both ways. Though many ships have dual roles, commander or LRF for example. Yet changing much atm doesnt makes sense, game is dying anyway, effort not worth it.  

@ErikErikson

I’m sorry, but i like this game for real, and i want to improve it as much as i can by telling my felling about it to the devs :slight_smile:

Yes, sadly the game is dying because of the next gen but a game with an actual good teamplay-based and inovations will still have its place in the world of video games :wink:

I won’t have to choose between star citizen and star conflict because i will play BOTH!

This is why me, a player, gives my idea to the dev team :smiley:

 

Now, i get back to the problem:

We do need a tutorial for each subclasses, a nerf on assassin tacklers (singularity op), maybe a rework of the special module of tacklers, and maybe a rework on non-stacking zone buff.

 

I know all you are saying here, stop taking me from high!

An ECM can stun the whole team and thx to that: THIS IS GG because your team will see paralized players and play the vultures.

For the command ship, i only said that the buffs arent cumultatives and it could be improved. Nothing more.

And for the tacklers…walala… I don’t understand that ship. Their special weapon is the gravi-beamer, so i should use it like a support ship… but i see so many singularity double or triple shot to kill that I don’t understand the devs thoughs when they created this class.

 

And the game knoledge… please, im here since 2013 \o/

 

And like I said to Finemw: “By the way, i know that, Assassins / Supports / Defenders are only a general name that i give them because doing their role means doing those as well ^^”

 

The ECM special module lasts all of 2 seconds (without a proton wall or the J2 implant). If an entire team can die in 2 seconds, that is worthy of an award in my books.

Also, very few pubs understand how to focus fire, much less have common sense, so an entire team dying in 2 seconds because of an ECM special module is almost impossible.

 

Buffs for commands aren’t supposed to stack, that would be broken as all hell. Imagine, 7 commands on a team, all running the buffs. You are talking several hundred points of resistance for EVERY SHIP on the team, as well as a 200%+ damage boost, and a 300%+ speed boost. No, just no. Commands are fine as they are. Not underpowered, not overpowered.

 

Tackler all depends on the build.

@ErikErikson

You should definitely read the former post of this thread. This ship isn’t an assassin and the singularity build should be reworked for less damages.

It is not as efficient to use a tackler as an assassin since it is not his purpose and you will surely die too often…except maybe with the singularity build…This one is broken and, for me, needs a nerf then this ship will be more often saw as it is originally: an ambushed support with a lot of slows.

Also, you can see that the only actual weapons worth to equip to a tackler are the gravi-beamer (thermal: good vs shield and hull), wich is the special designed weapon for this subclass, and the singularity gun (EM: good vs shields), wich is completly sorting out of nowhere. Not any kinetic (good vs hull) weapon is worth to equip. This is another sign that this ship isnt a finisher but only a support.

 

Yes, Tackler is actually technically an assassin by the game’s help screen definition. “A Tackler’s objective is to find and destroy enemy Recon and Covert Ops ships”

 

Sounds an awful lot like an assassin to me. The Singularity build on a tackler shouldn’t be reworked for less damage, that is the entire function of that build. Singularity cannons are supposed to do high damage per shot, that is how they are designed. It really isn’t broken. Supernova singularities are fairly hard to hit with (compared to normal singularities, or other weapons), and it requires considerable skill to use the build without dying to skilled players.

 

Also, gauss is my absolute favorite gun to use on tacklers. I have the capabilities of 1 or 2 shotting interceptors with it. So gauss is extremely good on tacklers (for being an assassin).

The ECM special module lasts all of 2 seconds (without a proton wall or the J2 implant). If an entire team can die in 2 seconds, that is worthy of an award in my books.

Also, very few pubs understand how to focus fire, much less have common sense, so an entire team dying in 2 seconds because of an ECM special module is almost impossible.

 

Buffs for commands aren’t supposed to stack, that would be broken as all hell. Imagine, 7 commands on a team, all running the buffs. You are talking several hundred points of resistance for EVERY SHIP on the team, as well as a 200%+ damage boost, and a 300%+ speed boost. No, just no. Commands are fine as they are. Not underpowered, not overpowered.

 

Tackler all depends on the build.

 

Maybe you could have read my other posts so you could have see multiple time me saying: ECM problem = SOLVED (or just check the edits on the OP)

And for the command ship buffs problem, you can just read the edit on COMMAND section on the OP before making a useless comment :stuck_out_tongue: (this has been made after some comments of mine that you didnt read either i think \o/ )

There is no sarcasm here, just saying true things :slight_smile:

 

Yes, Tackler is actually technically an assassin by the game’s help screen definition. “A Tackler’s objective is to find and destroy enemy Recon and Covert Ops ships”

 

Sounds an awful lot like an assassin to me. The Singularity build on a tackler shouldn’t be reworked for less damage, that is the entire function of that build. Singularity cannons are supposed to do high damage per shot, that is how they are designed. It really isn’t broken. Supernova singularities are fairly hard to hit with (compared to normal singularities, or other weapons), and it requires considerable skill to use the build without dying to skilled players.

 

Also, gauss is my absolute favorite gun to use on tacklers. I have the capabilities of 1 or 2 shotting interceptors with it. So gauss is extremely good on tacklers (for being an assassin).

 

If you follow my list of Roles on the OP, I don’t understand why a class would have something different from another. Why would fighters have an assassin if friguates don’t have one? (snipers are carries, don’t tell me engineers or guards are xD).

If this list is wrong and ships only have roles for themselves, I don’t understand why is there strangely the same amount of subclasses in each of them and why the icons of guards, ecms and commands are almost the sames for example…

 

If a subclass, here the tackler, have a purpose, it can’t be builded for another. Two choices:

  1. The tacklers are assassins and there is a big problem in balance with classes: lack of support for fighters and no game for interceptors when there is tacklers for opponent.

  2. The tacklers are supports, needs a little rethink on the special module, i made a proposal in the OP if you want to check it and also needs a nerf on the singularity and gauss cannon builds.

 

This has to be reworked if I am correct >:)

 

Oh? And don’t forget that 20% bonus damages on an already high damage gun (singularity + special module) make an extremly powerful tool…AND WHEN IT CAN HIT MULTIPLE TIME THE SAME TARGET WITH A SINGLE SHOT, IT IS WORSE x(

 

 

I’m starting to really like this thread, there is some people here to enjoy a real conversation :smiley:

It cant hit the same target more than once (bubbles) that got patched out a while ago

Step one to get people to stop responding to the same things: Write using readable english

Step two: Don’t make walls of text (can technically be part of step one)

Step three: Don’t edit the OP and say nothing in the actual thread

Besides that part, do be aware that classes can be played as different roles. Yes, engineers are typically support. No, it’s not impossible to make them carries. Just like tacklers: Yes, they’re very good support. No, it’s not impossible to make them carries.

And about singularities: If they’re OP, try using them and see where that gets you.

And about singularities: If they’re OP, try using them and see where that gets you.

Singu is the easiest to handle weapon coz on close range you can’t miss and combined with tackler slowdowns and Target painter quite powerful.

A gravi beamer withb curved reflector(1600m range is enough believe me) can put out more DMG but is harder to handle(but I like it on my parallax)

Singu is the easiest to handle weapon coz on close range you can’t miss and combined with tackler slowdowns and Target painter quite powerful.

A gravi beamer withb curved reflector(1600m range is enough believe me) can put out more DMG but is harder to handle(but I like it on my parallax)

Impossible to miss, eh? I’d hate to see how well a federation gunship with singularities does against interceptors at close range.

Oh wait, that’s right - extremely mediocre due to missing the majority of shots.

Unless you’re some god of singularity cannon, it’s extremely easy to miss, even at close range.