Star Conflict OBT v0.9.1 Discussion

Mercenary Center Patch Discussion
661

you still haven’t explained what the correct calculation is. thanks.

 

as per your example, B can be higher than 1 if plasma have a75% crit damage rate…

 

furthermore, in that example neithr A nor B were higher than 1 ;\ in the second example they were, to illustrate percentages as increases on 100.

 

 

that makes more sense…

 

but still, you haven’t really explained the significance of the result :\

 

nor  a base damage variable into the equation, or explained why crit chance is being calculated as damage…

Let me cover this.

 

In programming, you never express a percentage as a percentage; you express it as decimal. 100% = 1.0, 50% = 0.5, and so on.

 

The way this critical function appears to work, to me at least, is as follows:

 

Each time you inflict a hit, the appropriate function is called to calculate whether bonus damage is applied, and how much should be applied. Based on what we’ve given, there is an overall 3.5% DPS boost due to critical hits over a given period.

 

For ease of mathematics, let’s assume we’re dealing with a weapon that deals 300 dps. Let’s plug some numbers in and see what happens:

 

if a = 7% and b = 50% (we’re using a railgun, clearly), then a*b = 3.5% as proven above. This means that critical hits are boosting our effective damage per second (hereafter ‘edps’) to 310.5.

 

If this is a charge weapon, then based on the above maths it doesn’t matter how we use it. Assuming all our shots hit, then our overall edps remains 310.5.

 

I could speculate on what happens if we throw in crit chance / crit damage modifiers, but to do that accurately I’d need to know if they apply before or after all other modifications. ie: is a charge shot calculated by 3(a + bonusCrit) * (b + critDamage)/3, or bonusCrit + 3a * b/3 + critDamage.

 

The order in which modifiers are applied will have a big impact on their end effectiveness.

662

really wasn’t necessary :stuck_out_tongue:

 

my question was rather: is chance included as damage for charged shots… or is it calculated as a chance?

 

if it’s calculated as chance, then anti just didn’t state that in his post, which leads to my confusion. he included it in the formula, which seems to represent DPS and not damage, if you omit the crit chance multiplier when no crit occurs, then it makes sense as damage. well besides the fact that his formula is missing base damage variable at the beginning.

 

i know what the formula is anyways, i posted it about 10 pages ago. and it seems to represent the damage i see in the game… so everything is fine there.

 

btw, anyone noticed the net is all messed up?

 

amazon and washington post hacked, outlook.com down for 3 days, yahoo was down briefly yesterday, my VOIP is down today…

 

any chance the NSA revelations have anything to dow ith some of this? ;p not to mention power outages as a result of hot weather. but blah.

663

@Antibus :

 

I really hope devs will not try to implement Lootable Free Synergy.

The loot rating is already low (cause you have to won battle and praise the lord to not have EMPTY !)

The snowball effect is already here in High Tiers.

 

Edit : And reduce/rework the Subfaction GRIND !

664

they could do it instead of empty loot. empty loot makes not much sense anyway imho.

 

At least, I do not think anyone will miss that, since we have chanced based extraction now anyway (it was ok as it was not implemented this way back then)

 

So I do welcome any replacement in the empty loot pool

 

At least I think, you would agree on that Rakza, right?

665

they could do it instead of empty loot. empty loot makes not much sense anyway imho.

 

At least, I do not think anyone will miss that, since we have chanced based extraction now anyway (it was ok as it was not implemented this way back then)

 

So I do welcome any replacement in the empty loot pool

 

At least I think, you would agree on that Rakza, right?

 

I will agree with the looting system when a team that loose a game will be able to have half of the max looting try (Loot bonus with booster/DLC/Premium include if the players have them)

666

I will agree with the looting system when a team that loose a game will be able to have half of the max looting try (Loot bonus with booster/DLC/Premium include if the players have them)

 

with the current looting system, this game can’t even be considered an mmo (it lacks other features as well), or even a competitive game.

 

in mmos, all items are available on the market/tradable to prevent imbalances that could result from simple RNG-based loot drops that cannot be bought/sold.

 

in effect, the looting system should be a ‘bonus’ only. you can still buy all gear on the market, but you also have a chance to get some of that gear (ie: military) while looting.

 

experimentals should not be exclusive to loot, since it is RNG based, and no trading mechanism exists to create a sense of balance.

 

it’s basically a system that favors players with 6-12 months to kill, and several thousand GS.

667

I disagree. Experimental weapons are fine in drop only.

 

Trading would most certainly be nice at some point, but it would also resort in bigger communities / richer players having even better equipment. While traded experimentals on a market would actually devalue mk3 items. Military is below mk3, so it is really intended to be used as placeholder for the next tier, until you reach subfaction levels.

 

I do however also feel, that some sort of “re-using” existing loot or alternative paths to “craft” experimentals you really want to have would be awesome, maybe with some kind of salvage/crafting system - which you also could use to recycle items from ties not needed. Atm, most items are just stockpiled and hopefully result in a GS boost if they are patched out in a way. Selling them is often not really an option considered, it seems really like a last resort.

 

Atm. all you can do is pay GS to increase your gamble chance, and basicly always try to salvage anything. An additional choice to “not want the item, but give me a resource that can be used to create items” (Salvage Valuables) also comes into mind.

 

I definitely think, on that area however, things could be done better. I like markets and trade, however, generally, in games, but don’t miss them in this one (it makes having an experimental gun really something to strive for). I rather want to see better subfaction advancement, since a fully blue ship should be the baseline for tournament like endgame pvp.

 

Combined with personal crafting, personal loot was pretty awesome in D3. In fact, besides playing a new game, it was the only thing I really liked about that game. I do however not want SC to have similar item mechanics, I do like the Mk1-Mk2-Mil-Mk3-Exp system in general.

 

In fact, I think, this game does not need extreme grind factors to succeed, we can safely say, the experiment at the moment proves, that those players who like the game, would continue to do it even in epic endgame gear, while I think, some grindy parts of the game are even too harsh to newcomers atm.

668

I disagree. Experimental weapons are fine in drop only.

 

Trading would most certainly be nice at some point

 

alternative paths to “craft” experimentals you really want to have would be awesome

 

Atm. all you can do is pay GS to increase your gamble chance

 

then you disagree with every mmo out there, and every game ever published.

 

trading will not be implemented. there is no trade system in world of tanks.

 

crafting not necessary, just adds complexity. it just needs to be on the market.

 

it’s not only GS. it’s also time. even using GS it will take you months to get the experimentals you need… and that’s in T2/3, it only gets harder from there.

 

also, by using credits instead of GS it will take you 3 times longer… you’re talking years of looting unless you spend GS. basically, unattainable except through sheer luck.

 

oh, and that is with premium and the DLC with extra loot chance :\

 

also, some more math that doesn’t add up: oreo cookies and subway footlongs: http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/21/us/oreo-high-school-experiment/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

669

then you disagree with every mmo out there, and every game ever published.

 

trading will not be implemented. there is no trade system in world of tanks.

 

crafting not necessary, just adds complexity. it just needs to be on the market.

 

it’s not only GS. it’s also time. even using GS it will take you months to get the experimentals you need… and that’s in T2/3, it only gets harder from there.

 

also, by using credits instead of GS it will take you 3 times longer… you’re talking years of looting unless you spend GS. basically, unattainable except through sheer luck.

 

oh, and that is with premium and the DLC with extra loot chance :\

 

also, some more math that doesn’t add up: oreo cookies and subway footlongs: http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/21/us/oreo-high-school-experiment/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

Most of your arguments are based on a assumption that untill you get full on purple gear, you are useless, this is completely wrong. You are not required to have full experimental gear to be efficient in the game, while full mk1 to full experimental is a noticeable upgrade, mk3 to experimental is not, the difference is marginal. In the way this game plays there are hardly instances where those marginal values would change the outcome of the battle, yes we can theorycraft and assume many things, but it will not change the fact that those margins (even mk2+greens to mk3+greens+purples) affect the outcome much less than a coordination/teamwork/gamesense. Ability to understand where you have to be and what time and what you can and cannot do, will win you way -way more matches than raw gear. This game is not 1v1.

670

even using GS it will take you months to get the experimentals you need… 

 

 

I rather not compare this game all day long to WOT, since some mechanics of WOT atm even makes people leave that game. It was the first attempt of an FPS*-MOBA back then, hugely pushed by famous eve online fansites, and simply stated how much games like it are craved by the general population. I never liked wot, i always loved SC, and this should speak for itself.

I did say, I like trading in general, but I don’t explicitly miss it in this game.

 

I think MMO is a very broad term and usually only involves techniques how you solve players to find each other. Most MMOs have trading systems at their core, and in terms of network programming “mmoesque” protocols are usually a different mindset than “fps protocols” in terms of how you design them (massive dynamic information vs. low latency information). This makes this term very vague, so I don’t think, I disagree with those games published.

 

I don’t feel complexity is an issue of online games. Even console mmo shooters are pretty complex.

 

The difference in our experience of this game is maybe, that I don’t think experimentals are “needed” for gameplay, but usually you try to get as much experimentals as possible for your favourite ships. It is a simple bonus for playing long.

 

I did state, that I disagree about the general grind factor and the drop of 10% multiple times, especially, since complex probability suggests, that 10% chance in multiple draws actually reduces the individual 10% at each additional draw, and by the simple fact, that as a programmer with a scientist mindset, I do not really believe in true “randomness” anyway, but I already have the feeling, we have different views about the power and usage of mathematics.

Also, please note, that I usually prefer to include pro- and con- thoughts in my posts, so we might not even disagree that much; I just disagree experimentals should be buyable, from your specific post. :slight_smile:

 

*) for clarification: i used fps now in terms of “frames per second engine” or similar, basicly third-, first person shooters with really fast intervals of network sync, to differentiate from typical 16fps full state update RTS (wc3, aoe2, lol, dota, etc.) or dynamic stateless MMO engines (older online space shooters like BFG, eve online), to avoid confusion why i say “MOBA”. gosh, this terminology war will never end!?

671

no, they’re based on the fact that i played t2 r5/6 and t3 r7, which all give you experimental T2 drops, and all i have is a target painter! in over a month’s worth of game time… i had probably 8-10 chances, used GS on 2-3 of those, all failed. used credits on the rest, just got a target painter. according to what i spent, i should have 2 mods according to those averages. but that is 2 mods per month… lmao… and you have to stay in T2 or R7 to get them… you have to sit in the tier where you want experimentals :\ pointless waste of time.

 

dude, experimental gear that gives range boosts in some cases breaks things… you’re not talking about a small percentage any more, you’re talking about disabling the target before they are in range to disable you. huge advantage. white noise, stasis, ion emitter, tackler mods, spy drones.

 

experimentals basically ad 7.5-15% on top of base module stats, so if you’ve played for 6-12 months, you will have significant advantages. even over mk3 they are a 5-10% boost. that’s the way percentages work: diminishing returns when stacked.

 

enough of this already… it’s not theorycrafting… it’s a straight up advantage that is unattainable without grinding for months, and even then, it’s RNG luck-based. since someone might get a experimental statis on month 2, meanwhile you might get 3x sentry drone, and only get a statis 2 years from now… so i heard you like to play the lottery. that goes for any other module as well.

 

what i would like to see stargem release are the probability calculations for obtaining a specific experimental item. i want the probabilities for: obtaining an item in 100 wins, obtaining an item in 1000 wins, and 10000 wins. not a RANDOM item… the same specific item. the probability will be MUCH lower (orders of magnitude). i already know what the random item probability is anyways, roughly speaking.

 

anyways, doesn’t matter, using probability to distribute items in a PVP class-based shooter is just nuts.

 

I think MMO is a very broad term and usually only involves techniques how you solve players to find each other

 

nah, quake 3 had a server browser built-in and you can’t consider it an mmo.

 

if you mean social features like a friends list/corp list, you can consider that to be one required feature of a mmo, yes.

 

but one feature doesn’t make an mmo… it’s just a single feature: in this case a friends/corp list.

 

every mmo i know of with an item grind has a trading system.

 

in that same sense, i’m sure there are mmos without a trading system, but they also have no item grind :\

 

mmo is a set of features, or a ‘game experience’ is probably a better term.

 

as for experimentals: they’re buyable in every other game. either from a merchant or from other players themselves.

 

gd, this isnt quantum or particle physics.

672

Math. It hurts JP’s brain. Can someone dial the numbers down a bit? 

673

i can replace the numbers with sweet rolls, if that would make better sense.

674

experimentals basically ad 7.5-15% on top of base module stats, so if you’ve played for 6-12 months, you will have significant advantages. even over mk3 they are a 5-10% boost. that’s the way percentages work: diminishing returns when stacked.

I don’t have an access to a game atm, mind reminding me significant amount of experimental modules that will provide 10-15% advantage over mk3 gear

every mmo i know of with an item grind has a trading system.

In same time every mmo with trading system compensates with drop rates and overall amount of possible loot

675

I don’t have an access to a game atm, mind reminding me significant amount of experimental modules that will provide 10-15% advantage over mk3 gear

In same time every mmo with trading system compensates with drop rates and overall amount of possible loot

 

no, 7.5%-15% over mk1, 5-10% (technically 4.7-9.4%) over mk3. depending on the module.

 

i don’t have a game open either so you’ll just have to do the math.

 

but for example: if a mod has 40 base stat, add 2 or 4 = 5-10%. 40 to 42 is the low end of experimental bonuses.

 

the point about trading/market/loot systems is that the gear is available to anyone, and not only to a lucky few.

 

also, i can give you some general probability stats for experimentals.

 

considers i got 1 (should have gotten 2) using a mix of gs/credits out of ~10 tries. taking 2 out of 10.

 

so 2 mods per month, out of 100+ unique mods in T2. ie: 1/50… (edit: technically, this is an error, should calculate for each mod 1/100, and do bi-monthly, but it doesn’t throw the math off by much, not relevant)

 

2% chance in the first month, 18.3% chance in 10 months, 33.2% in 20 months, 45.5% in 30 months, 54.4% in 40 months, 63.6% in 50 months… probabilities… gotta love em lmao… 86.7% chance in 100 months. 95.2% in 150m. 98.2% in 200m. 99.3% in 250m.

 

in other words, you are NEVER guaranteed to get that item… it’s diminishing returns ;p you will most likely end up with copies of other items.

 

what this also means in general terms is that it will take 50 months to obtain roughly 63.6% of all the unique T2 mods… assuming 2 per month, at 100+ unique mods.

 

this gets worse in higher tiers, because there are more unique modules available. i think in T3 it’s 150-200+ unique modules.

 

if you want the math for 3 mods per month, here you go (but now you either have to play 4-5 hours a day or spend pure GS instead of credits): 2.97% chance in 1st month, 26.9% in 10m, 45.3% in 20m, 59.5% in 30m, 70% in 40m, 77.9% in 50m, 83.6% in 60m, 87.9% in 70m, 91% in 80m, 93.4% in 90m, 95% in 100m.

 

in any case, you’re talking months if not years for each tier. basically according to the green calc there for 3 mods per month, it’s ~2 years to obtain ~50% of the unique mods in T2. higher for T3 and beyond.

 

are we starting to make some sense yet? ;p

 

i hope this isn’t like some of the math they were not planning on releasing…

 

oh, if you want the formula, it’s: 1 - (U-1/U)^(MP)

 

where U = number of unique mods in tier, M = months, and P = mods acquired per month

676

no, 7.5%-15% over mk1, 5-10% (technically 4.7-9.4%) over mk3. depending on the module.

My point is that MK3 is technically 100% available to anyone, and margins of experimentals over mk3 is neglectable to change the outcome of an encounter, so that why i do not have a problem with no trading or presence of an experimental gear

(The time required to obtain those mk3 or the gold price of prem equivalents is a different story altogetherer)

 

 

i don’t have a game open either so you’ll just have to do the math.

 

but for example: if a mod has 40 base stat, add 2 or 4 = 5-10%. 40 to 42 is the low end of experimental bonuses.

 

the point about trading/market/loot systems is that the gear is available to anyone, and not only to a lucky few.

 

also, i can give you some general probability stats for experimentals.

 

considers i got 1 (should have gotten 2) using a mix of gs/credits out of ~10 tries. taking 2 out of 10.

 

so 2 mods per month, out of 100+ unique mods in T2. ie: 1/50… (edit: technically, this is an error, should calculate for each mod 1/100, and do bi-monthly, but it doesn’t throw the math off by much, not relevant)

 

2% chance in the first month, 18.3% chance in 10 months, 33.2% in 20 months, 45.5% in 30 months, 54.4% in 40 months, 63.6% in 50 months… probabilities… gotta love em lmao… 86.7% chance in 100 months. 95.2% in 150m. 98.2% in 200m. 99.3% in 250m.

 

in other words, you are NEVER guaranteed to get that item… it’s diminishing returns ;p you will most likely end up with copies of other items.

 

what this also means in general terms is that it will take 50 months to obtain roughly 63.6% of all the unique T2 mods… assuming 2 per month, at 100+ unique mods.

 

this gets worse in higher tiers, because there are more unique modules available. i think in T3 it’s 150-200+ unique modules.

 

if you want the math for 3 mods per month, here you go (but now you either have to play 4-5 hours a day or spend pure GS instead of credits): 2.97% chance in 1st month, 26.9% in 10m, 45.3% in 20m, 59.5% in 30m, 70% in 40m, 77.9% in 50m, 83.6% in 60m, 87.9% in 70m, 91% in 80m, 93.4% in 90m, 95% in 100m.

 

in any case, you’re talking months if not years for each tier. basically according to the green calc there for 3 mods per month, it’s ~2 years to obtain ~50% of the unique mods in T2. higher for T3 and beyond.

 

are we starting to make some sense yet? ;p

 

i hope this isn’t like some of the math they were not planning on releasing…

I know i am one darn lucky xxxxxxx, and single example is a bad example, but here is what i have:

750 battles won out of 1157, 90% with active licence + god knows how many PvEs

46 Experimentals total

T1 - 2

T2 - 25

T3 - 15

T4 - 4

T5 - 0

I joined when star conflict got available on steam on steam, it was 0.7.something.

I am sure that i am on a “lucky” side of a distribution here, while i know people that had 2k games won and 2x less experimentals, but they did not have a license for all of those games (less loot attempts per win)

677

well, if pves are not counted in battles, then i can see how that works.

 

but just for comparison, i have some 400 battles won, only 1 T2, and about 4-5 T1s.

 

and yes, they do confer an advantage. 5-10% over Mk3, and as mentioned, when ranges are involved, they break a lot of stuff. in some cases they allow the module to be constantly cycled where mk3 require a cooldown.

 

still 25 T2 mods, out of 100+ is a drop in the bucket. if you got some good mods, it’d only because you are lucky. how many of those are duplicates btw? cuz honestly, if you own 25% of unique T2 mods, it’s the same as saying you have a 25% chance of getting a specific mod. slightly less than a year of playtime according to my calcs. (~9 months, less obviously if you play more than 2-3 hours per day, on which i base my calcs, and thats with premium and the loot scanner)

 

but, i can put it differenlyt, if you have 46 mods, that’s like playing 15-23 months at 2-3 hours per day. if you play 4-6hours, you’re down to 7.5-11.5 months, using a mix of credit and GS… if you use all GS, i can see you getting that down to 6-8 months game time. or predominantly GS. still, 46 mods split across 4 tiers, which include 500-600+ unique mods truly is a drop in the bucket.

 

anyways, doesn’t matter if you tweak the drop rate… it won’t work… items must be available on market. only way to solve the RNG/probability problem.

 

not sure what kind of mods you got, they must be really good lol. there’s no shortage of situational/worthless mods, which could easily fill your 25% quota… then you’d be singing a different tune ;p

 

actually, looking at your stats 5 days 12 hours = 5.5 days. i have 3 days, 11 hours = 3.5 days.

 

there’s simply no way you can have that many experimentals lmao… unless pve is not counted in hours in-game… 46 compared to… my 6? almost 8 times as many in not even double the play time? something wrong mr. wong. that would be like almost 4 times the drop rate. unless you spent 3/4 of your time in pve, or used only GS to salvage.

 

still, i could be at the extreme low end (as per my lack of T2 drop rate) and you could be at the extreme high end. explaining our differing opinions. such is the nature of probability. in the end, you could take an average, somewhere along the line of 50% T2 gear in 1 year, 30% of T2 gear in about 6 months, which would seem to make sense in this case. but you are still never certain to obtain anything, you just have a higher probability of obtaining it. and that’s still way too damn long, and still based on RNG. if you played 7-8 times as long as i have (just over a month) then that’s explainable. or 5-6 months with more hours.

 

ah, you know what explains the 4x drop rate? im calculating for my T2 drops per month, not including my T1s. my stats are slightly skewed since my T1 drop rate was high, but my T2 drop rate is almost non-existent. i simply assumed that drops fall off as you progress through the tiers. but still it’s 5-6+ months as i stated to reach that level. and that’s only a small percentage of the available mods. so it’s like a lottery, taking 1 year or more to get 50% of all T2 unique mods.

678

Epics

T1 = 2

T2 = 6

T3 = 9

T4 = 0

T5 = 0

 

1,102 PVP Wins

 

No License* (12 days no epics from those), No Loot Scanner, No PVE* (10 games no epics from those), Unique loot, No Duplicates

 

17 Experimentals in over 1,000 wins

 

 

[edit]

I am supportive of a trading system where stuff can get redistributed from people with time to people with money and back again. But as it is evident from my case - even people with time will still be wayyyyyyyyyyy behind the loot count.

 

PVE is still the biggest factor when it comes to loot due to it’s 100% almost guaranteed 1 item drop; except I’ve had more than half (atleast 5 in 10 for sure) of those drops rewarded in Loyalty instead of an item.

 

I fear trading will only benefit those with money and those who PVE.

Looking forward to item crafting when it comes out tho I doubt it’ll make any beneficial impact to PVP players overall. Coz that’d be a positive gesture and I have yet to see one of those coming out from this game.

679

The T1 guy would have had at least a rank 4 ship (T2) in his line-up. Agreeing with the sentiment though, as I think all players do.

He could have been in a squad.  His tier would be tied to his squad mates.

 

Resistances are already there. Some formulas cannot be published.

But those that can be, yes, they will surely be added.

I was hoping for a centralized post, “The Math of Star Conflict” to avoid searching the forum and hoping to find it.

680

He could have been in a squad.  His tier would be tied to his squad mates.

Yep good point, that too.