Shield Resistances Nerfed?

Game Discussion Balance
1

I remember checking each ship individually yesterday, Jericho had more shield resistances. Now, they have more or less the same shield resistances when compared to other factions, just small differences. Why?

 

Plasma weapons wreck Jericho ships at the moment. Note that I’m not that far in the game; there are some upgrades to make up for the loss of resistances, but they feel like they are a NECESSITY for Jericho at the moment, especially when going against someone with EMP weapons. EMP weapons on nature have higher DPS, and with the new low resistances, you cannot hold more than a few seconds even if you set Phase Shield to EMP, your shield will just melt. Not even going to mention Frigates or Interceptors.

 

Am I delusional or what? Also, why do I see +60 bonuses for Hercules Arrow (T1) instead of +30 that I see for every other ship?

2

The actual regeneration of jericho is being looked at atm, As per one of the suggestions i made, to diversify them from other races. my recommendation was to increase their regeneration from 90 to 240s/sec at the cost of resistance. This may be a pre-stat change move.

 

if its not, they are just playing with stats to balance them so be patient.

3

Please no, more shield regen is crap, i hate it. Better not receive damage instead of regenerating it!

Will take a closer look at it.

4

passive regen of 240/s isnt working…

 

i tried a theorethical passive tank (with two modules active and nothing in resistances)

with 1,8k shield reg per second

doesnt work too.

 

BUT

the same passive regen setup works fine for my

armor tank?!

 

One heavy plasma and BAM!

Shield has:

A) Big hitbox (bigger than hull)

B) weakness to EM (plasma guns are very popular)

C) can only take collision damage with a special skill

D)can be circumvented by a luckshot sometimes

 

SO:

Buff its resists

5

Please no, more shield regen is crap, i hate it. Better not receive damage instead of regenerating it!

Will take a closer look at it.

Jericho should have decent shield regen, seen as it does rely on shields.

6

Just giving more shield regen won’t do much. Yes, they should have that too, but they also need more resistances, as when your shields are gone, you are most probably dead.

 

Empire ships on the other hand, even if I attack with kinetic weapons, I have hard time taking them down. Taking a Jericho ship with kinetic weapons, I have no problem. Weird, isn’t it?

 

Also, Jericho frigates are completely useless at this stage; they cannot regenerate their shields fast enough - that is if they survive an encounter, and the reduced shield resistances are making these frigates a big fat target with a kill me sticker in the back.

7

I had in mid to do some calculations how much more dmg jericho will take with the size of the shield compared to the hull of empire. The overall is now that jericho lacks some ressistances on shield to compensate the size it has. I had in mind ot buff it abou 5 Units and 5% of Shield strengh. (effective change is somewhere about 10% here with the base reg) Regneration is difficult to balance since resistances will highly increase the effectiveness of it.

8

Where is that discussion? You mean internally?

 

Also, doesn’t energy levels affect shield regen? If so, no matter how much you buff it, you won’t be helping Jericho; to get maximum regen, you’ll have to stop wasting energy, but not always you can do that.

9

I have heard of an internal mechanic that causes shield regeneration to be effected by energy, some sort of % Variance ratio, but i have been unable to confirm it and every time i try to remember, i forget to ask one of the devs.

 

 

Buffing the resistance on jericho is the wrong way to go, Imo. they need more regeneration and they will be fine, i’d like to see their resistance come down actually, and to give them high regeneration, but weaker resistance, so that it works out to be something like this in the end.

 

 

220-240 Regeneration/ 55-65% DR - Jericho

90-120 Regeneration / 75-85% Dr - Federation

 

I grow tired with the current suggestions just to make everything the same, while it offers a balanced game, it lacks depth

and that plays a very important part in “fun” game play.

 

Balance is not just 

 

I do 450 dmg, he does 300 HPS, there for it takes me 40 seconds to kill him

 

one of the core teachings of game balancing mechanics taught in universities today is not to do this

and that you can often balance one stronger mechanic with another stronger mechanic.

 

example of this is stun lock in world of warcraft, it itself is over powered,

but easily beaten by high damage reduction or healing (equally powerful)

10

I’m sorry, but I prefer having shield resistances rather than shield regeneration. And shield regeneration IS tied to energy. One of the patch notes that I read yesterday states so. If you give more shield regen to jericho, you’ll be making their ships more and more useless. Because, you’ll be forcing them to avoid using afterburners, and any energy drain effect on them will be lethal as it will negate their regeneration bonus.

 

Also, Empire is hull tank. Your suggestion to give them high DR on their shields is absurd. 

11

I agree to lyravegas, statement.

 

To balance Jericho ships properly there are two ways:

a) fix the resistance problem they’ve got

b) reduce the shield size to the model size, like an overlaying shield and not a bubble.

12

b) reduce the shield size to the model size, like an overlaying shield and not a bubble.

This is also somewhat necessary I think, but not as urgent I feel.

13

I strongly believe regeneration is the way to go, because of two key reasons

 

 

  • The First is that jericho lack uniqueness when it comes to their shielding technology.

 

  • The second, is Higher regeneration allows for re-engagement to battle sooner. so in other words if you have to bug out tot heal up, then you take 1/2 the time the fed would. the lower resistance would only be 15-20% Max, and for the higher regeneration, you will find as a skilled pilot with good piloting skills you would survive much longer.
14

Go here for resis mechanik. lowered resis will eat up the regeneration. -30 Units (e.g. Targetpainer) of resis will cause 42,3% more damage if you go from 0resis down.

 

The only problem i see, compared to empire, is the size of the shield compared to the hull. If you go on hull you really need to hit the ship. Shield on the other hand is about 2-3 times as big as the ship itself. This is making jericho so weak right now. Making the shield fit to the hullsize will be a good solution in the first place. Even making jericho as strong as empire is right now.

15

lyravega,RedshipRory,Gentaei

i agree totaly and iam glad a few who Really know the mechaniks are taking the reins in this one

Raising regen will only make some ships immune to damage

there are moduals that you can add that will raise your regen …and it should stay that way

if people want more regen you’ll have to use a passive slot for that

16

As covered before, Regeneration and Resistance act differently.

 

Resistance increase the effective HP of a ship

Regeneration increases the effective HPS of a ship

 

They are two totally different concepts.

 

I put  a post out this morning regarding this topic. the idea is to give factions faction specific passives / mod slots, that only can be used on a ship of that faction.

 

I want to use this as a means to discuss it here in regards to it.

 

(Passive MOD) Suggested Jericho Technologies (Faction specific) are

 

Tech: Regenerative shielding: Regenerates 25% shielding, but reduces max HP by 2.5%

Raid: Adaptive shielding: increases all resistance by  25, but reduces regeneration by 4%.

 

This will give 100% Regeneration on a fighter.

Now lets pair that with the Jericho Shield Mod Slot + Capacitor Slot

95 % Regeneration, 5% HP Reduction

115% Regeneration, 5% Hp Reduction

 

total reduction = 10% (passive) 17% Mod  = 27%

 

We will use  a jericho fighter for this example

 

90/s regeneration on shields

275% Regeneration

 

247.5 Regeneration / s + 140 (synergy cap) = 387.5 Regeneration a second

Hp drops from 8500 to 6800 shields (rounded)

 

Effective Regeneration from 0 to 100% Hp = 17.5 Seconds

(non-regenerative shielding) 0 to 100% (8500 hp)  = 94 seconds.

 

rapid plasma average hit 150

assault plasma average hit 400

heavy plasma average hit 1200

hail plasma average hit 1000

 

Average hit 687 damage per shot

687 damage - 387.5 = 299.5 Dps

(rounded) 300 dps / 6800 = 22 second kill time

 

Min damage (150 rapid plasma) Unkillable

Max damage (1200 heavy plasma) 5 seconds killed

This will put heavy plasma at what it was designed (by me) to do, be effective against lighter craft, but weak towards heavy.

This sort of technology would excel again rapid fire weapons, but be extremely weak against heavy / sniper weapons.

 

The purpose for this design is to diversify the races.

Now bare in mind all of the top is math for a completely different concept, but this math was to show you, It is not broken.

the races i gave in this post above was almost equal to that of the current booster.

you vastly underestimate the value of even 50 or 100 resistance (which regenerative shielding will lose for that regen)

in the end, when it comes to making the races unique, and the jericho fun and excellent at battle, regenerative shielding is the way to go.

17

Im worried about the combination with resistances. Since regen/s scales with resis. This could make jerichos a bit to strong.

18

you are absolutely correct on this gentai, which is why i said, Jericho should naturally have lower resistance, and the federation have higher resistance.

 

This gives the races diversity when it comes to their shielding, and their game play concepts

lets assume my math is not completely fail at its gues-ta-mate for a minute, and believe the following to be true

 

180 Resistance = 65% DR

280 Resistance = 90% DR

 

you will have federation  have high DR, which means they will have a situation like this

 

5000 HP shield @

Resistance Cap: 90% DR

Default resistance DR: (140) 40%

Effective tank: 9500

Regeneration: 90 shld/s

Regeneration time 55 sec

Average Resistance

EM: 60

Thermal: 35

Kinetic: 45

 

 

Potential problems: The cloaking may have a bad cool down to work properly in conjunction to this type of shielding. It may be that cloaking will require a lower CD to make the federation work properly

 

Jericho will be different, having the inability to sustain constant high-powered weapon damage, but excelling against high RoF Weapons

 

 

8500 Shielding

Resistance CAP: 45% Dr

Default Resistance DR: ( - 140) -40%

Regeneration: 420 shld/s (synergy 7) 387s/s (synergy 5)

Regeneration time 28 sec

Default Resistance

EM: -85

Thermal: -30

Kinetic:  - 25

 

note: it should work out that a player would actually want to stack HP at a rate slightly better then resistance.

**For example, 30% HP expansion grants 5000 hp on my frigate, the resistance should work out to grant around 4500 (45%)**so hp stacking is better. further, most hp increases shielding regeneration, so its almost as if you are buffing two things with one mod. This is excellent because it means jericho will have very high hp/regen shields, with very low (-45% resistance).

 

 

Potential problems: Regenerative shielding is balanced, but it excels at fighting ROF weapons, rather then burst. this means heavy weapons will kill it very quickly (giving heavy weapons desirability) But rof will have a very hard time with it.

 

 

rapid plasma for example deal 150 damage a hit, and shoot up to 300 rpm. lets assume regeneration works as is every 2 seconds

 

Regeneration will be 800 a shield health cycle. Meaning every 2 seconds, 800 shields will be healed.

rapid fire in this time will do 5 shots. 5 x 150 = 750 damage. This means at around -5 resistance, rapid fire will cease to be able to break an

regenerative tank.  hence the - 40% resistance starting; this gives rapids 1087 dps, which means on a jericho shhip with out resistance fitted

you will break the tank in 8-9 seconds. on the flip side, at jericho resistance cap (45%) the tank will be broken only by players fitted by

sniper and heavy weapons. it will be possible for assaults to break the tank, but only if they are fitted with modules that reduce resistance.

 

 

Note: i think lowering the resistance to 600 may be acceptable, but these levels are a little lower then i’d like to see them

 

Side note: these changes will bring desirability to sniping, because jericho will become a fun target to be killed by snipers.

 

Synopsis

(things like rapid fire plasma’s potentially may not be able to break passive tank; but this is designed to be like this) one of the first rules of game design is you dont make everything the same, it leads to a game that is dull, and boring. You can for example make stun lock op vs a mage, but it is countered with another OP tactic like Ice-block, or healing.

in a similar way, regenerative shielding is good vs rapid fire, but weak toward 

 

 

As always keep in mind, the math needs to be tweaked and done better, i am a conceptual designer.

19

EM: -85

 

Uhm… 100 dmg per hit will do 666.66dmg then. o_O

 

 

Formular for Damage after Resistances:

 

R = Resistance in Units

dps = Damage per second of Weapon

dhp = Damage per hit of Weapon

Turrets = amount of Turrets on ship (2//4//6)

XX = other damage modifications (e.g. 5% more damage)

 

(1/( R +100)\ *dps / dph )\ *Turrets *( XX /100+1)*100 = Damage after resis

 

 

Example with 100dps , 200 Units Resistances , 5% modification of damage , Frigate ( 6 Turrets )

 

 

(1/( 200 +100)\ *100dps )\ *6 *( 5 /100+1)*100 = 210 Damage per second

 

 

0 Units of Resistance:

 

 

(1/( 0 +100)\ *100dps )\ *6 *( 5 /100+1)*100 = 630 Damage per second

 

 

 

You can also think this way: 1 Units adds 1% of max health as bonus. 200Units will add 200% of health.

 

Health +( Resistance /100\ *Health ) = Theoretical HP

 

From this Theoretical HP every Damagevalue is calculated. But only “Real HP” are displayed. This way we can run displayed dps for survival calculations. You can reduce incomming dps by regeneration.

 

I’ll take a T2mk3 Shieldgenerator from the Frigate.

 

128Shield/s +( 200Units /100\ *128Shield/s ) = _ 384Shield/s Theoretical _

 

630 Damage per second - _ 384Shield/s Theoretical _  = 246 Damage per second remains

 

 

 

This leads to the fact that high resis and high regen/s will make a ship extremly tanky!

 

Keep this post in mind doing calculations with resis. Regen/s also scale with resis. So your 800reg/2s will be eaten up by your -85 of em resis. So only 150 remains to counter dps.

 

Health / Regen/s + Resis -> Theoretical Health / Regen/s

DPS / DPH are linked to Theoretical Health

So you only need to scale your health and regen/s with your resis.

 

I’ll also add a Excel list I’ve created with Error a while back to test out the resis mechanik with tank builds. There you can easily compare diffrent resis, hp and damage values. This should also help you perform better with such things.

[Resistances Calculation.zip](< base_url >/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=5500)