Major mechanics overhaul needed

Today I saw an all too familiar sight; three T5 pilots in Warden’s Outpost running for the warp gate as soon as the Bios showed up.

The reason they ran is simple; Invasion is badly designed, poorly implemented and utterly at odds with the rest of the game. In any other mode those pilots would have grouped together and fought back, and their mixture of Engineer, LRF and ECM, with a second Engineer on standby, would have easily won out.

Yet they ran, because Invasion doesn’t encourage teamwork.

So what has to change? Well, the first and most important change is that Invasion MUST be brought into line with all other modes.

This means…

  1. Teams.

All players of the same faction should automatically be teamed up. They should count as allies, share sensor range, be unable to damage one another (even in PvP areas) and be able to heal and buff each other.

This is important because every other mode does this; players are assigned teams by default. The lack of auto-teaming causes Invasion’s focus on solo play. The argument of ‘you can squad up’ isn’t valid - people don’t squad on the fly.

  1. PvP isn’t the focus of Invasion. Accept this.

I regularly fly through PvP sectors without incident, even in weak ships. When I do engage in PvP, the other player typically asks me to stop attacking them. There are players who want PvP in Invasion, but they are the minority; the bulk of Invasion’s players want PvE.

  1. Looting and Rewards should be instant.

One of the issues with Invasion is the fact you can spend a great deal of time farming for loot, only to die and lose everything. No other mode does this; there should be rewards offered to pilots who die with loot in the cargo bay.

I already know there are players who will argue against this and claim this would ruin Invasion, but anyone who flies around observing player behaviour will know the hardline ‘no rules’ open world touted by the hardcore players is diametically opposed to what the majority want and expect from this mode.

The should just be a teaming interface. plain and simple. nothing else is needed

Those pilots are cowards…

 

Biomorphs are easy if you got a good team.

True that. I can solo two groups at once in my Anaconda M. If I had an engi with me, I could just farm them all day without incident.

 

And to your ninja edit:

The should just be a teaming interface. plain and simple. nothing else is needed

Yes, that too.

‘If you’ve got a good team’ most Bios are easy. The problem is that unless you set out as a team with the express intent of fighting Bios, you won’t have a team when they show up.

That’s why I edited because I reread. But Libroty just HAD to post it.

That’s why I edited because I reread. But Libroty just HAD to post it.

Hey, I almost posted ONLY that part. You should be thankful I caught your ninja edit, too!

  1. PvP isn’t the focus of Invasion. Accept this.

I regularly fly through PvP sectors without incident, even in weak ships. When I do engage in PvP, the other player typically asks me to stop attacking them. There are players who want PvP in Invasion, but they are the minority; the bulk of Invasion’s players want PvE.

  1. Looting and Rewards should be instant.

One of the issues with Invasion is the fact you can spend a great deal of time farming for loot, only to die and lose everything. No other mode does this; there should be rewards offered to pilots who die with loot in the cargo bay.

I already know there are players who will argue against this and claim this would ruin Invasion, but anyone who flies around observing player behaviour will know the hardline ‘no rules’ open world touted by the hardcore players is diametically opposed to what the majority want and expect from this mode.

 

The ‘majority’ of players don’t want PvP in Invasion because they are lazy and want a large payout with no risk. We already have a team game mode focused on PvE where rewards are instant. It’s called… PvE. And the ‘majority’ of players I’ve heard on the forums say it’s BORING. Many refuse to even fly PvE missions because of how repetitive they are.

 

The only difference between the Invasion mode you are suggesting and PvE mode is that Invasion wouldn’t have a set script (besides that it’s the only place to get blueprints and alien crystals). Other than that there is absolutely nothing to keep Invasion from becoming just as boring and irrelevant as PvE if PvP combat is removed.

Citation needed.

I mentioned I have had pilots request that they not be attacked in PvP sectors. Is that ‘laziness’? Unlikely. Based on my observations, my own experience and my experience of games with comparable PvP mechanics to invasion, I can say with confidence what it is that makes them not want PvP combat.

  1. Fairness. PvP mode is ‘fair’ in that team size is equal, ship quality and capability is as close to equal as can be managed, and so the game has an innate fairness to it. Invasion has no such safeguard.

  2. PvE players don’t want unsolicited PvP.

Runescape proved that nicely. The original concept of RS was that the high-reward skill locations for non-combat skills would be inside a PvP area. This proved hugely unpopular and year after year Jagex were bombarded with demands to remove the skilling and PvM content from the PvP areas.

Put simply, the pilots who go to Invasion to play PvE do not want PvP thrust upon them.

I have never seen you or anyone else provide any evidence that your claim toward player attitudes are true. I have, however, seen that players who DO enjoy no-rules PvP also enjoy bullying, harassing and griefing other players, particularly those who are clearly ill prepared for PvP combat.

So we can add that to the list of reasons to do away with Invasion’s PvP ethos.

  1. It encourages antisocial behaviour, harassment, dishonesty and fosters suspicion and distrust between players.

There are players who want PvP in Invasion, but they are the minority; the bulk of Invasion’s players want PvE.

…anyone who flies around observing player behaviour will know the hardline ‘no rules’ open world touted by the hardcore players is diametically opposed to what the majority want and expect from this mode.

Citation needed.

 

So tell me then, when was your last poll? I’d love to see the raw numbers. I’ve got plenty of personal experience to bring to the table as well, but if you’re going to rule that as inadmissible I don’t see why your own personal experiences should stand as qualified evidence.

 

PvE players don’t want unsolicited PvP.

 

80% of the map is under station protection, including a handful of rank 10 zones. Players are given warnings both on the map and at the jump gates if they are about to enter a PvP zone. Most open PvP zones are restricted to Rank 10, with a handful being Rank 7, so players can’t get in with anything lower than a T3 ship. How is that unsolicited? It is practically screamed in players’ faces at every turn.

 

If players are angry that they got shot down in an advertised PvP zone, that is their own fault. If players want to enjoy Invasion and avoid PvP, they need only keep Station Protection active and stay out of the PvP sectors. It’s not that hard.

 

If that’s still too tough for them to figure out, they can go enjoy round after round of pure PvE in a four-man team, and get a guaranteed loot chance to boot.

 

This game caters enough to the ‘helpless’ type who want everything spoon-fed to them. Invasion doesn’t need to be one of those.

Players are forced into PvP sectors to complete missions. If they are forced to enter PvP space to take part in PvE activities they have every right to be angry.

If you want to change faction, you are also forced into PvP space. Several achievements likewise require you to fly in PvP space for varying durations.

Finally, Devs themselves state the intended audience for Invasion is ‘players who want to explore’. Your attitude is that players who want to explore can only do so where YOU say they can, and you’ll kill them if they don’t obey.

That’s not exploration; that’s thuggery.

Your entire counter-argument is laughably flawed and utterly detached from reality. Go and actually play some Invasion Mode and pay attention to what the PvE mode asks you to do, then note how players are behaving.

The truth is, this is Sector Conquest all over again. Remember the players who boasted how awesome it was going to be to bring T3 ships and own the T5s with them? They never brought T3. What they ACTUALLY wanted was for everyone else to fly T3 so they could stroke their e-peen and farm in blue / purple T5. They wanted to bully other players and abuse them for personal gain, and they acted like they were entitled to do that; that it was somehow ‘fair on everyone’ that they could abuse this game mode to their own ends.

Isn’t it interesting how similar the pro-PvP arguments sound around here?

Making a second post instead of a long edit.

 

Consider the following: Imagine if someone began boasting on the forums about how they abused the Sector Conquest mechanics to get themselves killed to friendly fire several times per match and then use that to get a teammate punished by the GMs. What do you think the reaction would be? Do you think most players would support that behaviour? Would they praise it? Probably not I would think. If anything, boasting about it would, one hopes, cause the GMs to pay careful attention to their game logs and perhaps even take action against them.

 

And yet look at the kind of ‘feedback’ we’ve had for Invasion - players boasting gleefully about how you can trick the game into making your opponent the aggressor and then kill him without penalty. These are people who are glorifying in abusing game mechanics and exploiting them to their own benefit while punishing innocent parties.

 

The core problems with Invasion crop up time and again. Forcing PvP on PvE pilots makes them resentful and results in a negative experience. The total lack of teams makes squads vastly more powerful in invasion than in other modes, and gives them a massive and unfair advantage in PvP. The PvP issue is further compounded by the “defender advantage” of any attacking squad having to jump into a sector blind, and potentially being split up. As such, even if you want to play PvP fairly, you almost certainly can’t play it on fair terms.

 

A part of the problem lies in the fact that there is a growing cancer in the upper band of this game; an attitude among veterans that it’s perfectly fine to farm players and abuse them, in any mode. I won’t name names, but I’ve seen first hand good players intentionally seeking to grief other players and actively encouraging others to do so… and then people wonder why this game has such a low player count.

 

The problem, Soldiers, is that you either aren’t looking at the right problem, or you are part of the problem. There are a group of players Invasion needs to be protected from - it’s the kind of player who has no interest in giving the other side a fun gaming experience. You can’t demand lawless Invasion Mode with no rules and no boundaries and then in the very next breath bemoan the lack of players and how everyone’s camping in T4 PvE and T3 PvP modes. It’s all the same problem - the majority needs protecting from the abusive elites.

 

And yet look at the kind of ‘feedback’ we’ve had for Invasion - players boasting gleefully about how you can trick the game into making your opponent the aggressor and then kill him without penalty. These are people who are glorifying in abusing game mechanics and exploiting them to their own benefit while punishing innocent parties.

 

I know you be think of me. XD

Anyways, Jasan is right. The only reason “most players” want no-rules pvp in Invasion is because it is not “most players”. “Most players” are a loud minority of veterans or elitists. It is like the annoying person on the mobile at the theatre. If we took an ingame poll I would bet than more than 60% want invasion to be PVE oriented.

I know you be think of me. XD

Anyways, Jasan is right. The only reason “most players” want no-rules pvp in Invasion is because it is not “most players”. “Most players” are a loud minority of veterans or elitists. It is like the annoying person on the mobile at the theatre. If we took an ingame poll I would bet than more than 60% want invasion to be PVE oriented.

Personally, all I want is a nice squad interface. I don’t want to be forced into teams. Currently, invasion is pretty neat. It’s got plenty of safe sectors for everyone to feel safe to farm in, some even with aliens. It’s got a few PvP sectors, where people have to take risks. Besides, from what I’ve seen, even in PvP sectors, almost no one attacks anyone else. And if I die because someone else attacked me, it’s my fault for not being careful. Every ship class has some possible response to an attack. So long as you stay out of facetorp range, you’re usually safe.

 

Yes, I’d love the ability to work together in invasion. But it shouldn’t be forced upon people. What I like about invasion is the freedom of choice - to be able to attack, and yet willingly not. Teams are not the solution.

You can’t demand lawless Invasion Mode with no rules and no boundaries and then in the very next breath bemoan the lack of players and how everyone’s camping in T4 PvE and T3 PvP modes. It’s all the same problem - the majority needs protecting from the abusive elites…The problem, Soldiers, is that you either aren’t looking at the right problem, or you are part of the problem.

I see what you’re doing. You’re glomming together random comments and topics I’ve made to justify your viewpoint that somehow I am one of these “abusive elites”, and therefore all of my points are irrelevant or flawed. Cute.

 

 

  1. Players are forced into PvP sectors to complete missions. If they are forced to enter PvP space to take part in PvE activities they have every right to be angry.

  2. If you want to change faction, you are also forced into PvP space.

 

  1. Several achievements likewise require you to fly in PvP space for varying durations.

  2. Finally, Devs themselves state the intended audience for Invasion is ‘players who want to explore’. Your attitude is that players who want to explore can only do so where YOU say they can, and you’ll kill them if they don’t obey.

 

 

  1. Your entire counter-argument is laughably flawed and utterly detached from reality. Go and actually play some Invasion Mode and pay attention to what the PvE mode asks you to do, then note how players are behaving.

 

  1. There are several missions that take place in protected space. If my memory serves me, you can actually decline a daily mission and be presented with an alternate one. Meaning, if you don’t want to go into a PvP zone, you can refuse said mission and see if the next one will keep you in a protected zone. Players are not forced to do anything. This victim-mentality over a game mode that actually makes you take risks to obtain the rarest loot is just pathetic.

 

  1. False. There is a 100 GS option that allows players to switch hangars instantly without having to risk the frontier sectors, of which the player has only to make it through 2 of them. On a T4 micro-warp or tackler, this is trivial. Once through those areas player have convenient paths all the way to their respective bases under complete station protection, during which they can activate cruise-control and read a book.

 

  1. Achievements contribute nothing significant to this game at the moment. Maybe a title, if you’re lucky. But nothing that affects actual gameplay.

 

  1. Again, painting me as the enemy. Consider this: The developers changed several rank 10 sectors in faction space into station protected zones so players could change stations more easily without fear of getting ganked. YET, they left frontier space alone. Why do you think that is? Could it be that there is supposed to be some PvP risk in this gamemode after all?

 

  1. Seriously? Your closing argument is “You don’t know what you’re talking about. Go play the game, kid.”?

 

Since we’re making character accusations, allow me one of my own. Your arguments have much in common with the entitled mentality of players who expect to get everything in this game for free because it’s a ‘free-to-play’. News Flash: This game is equal-opportunity, not equal-risk. Players have the exact same opportunity to go farm for T5 blueprints, and if some don’t want to risk it, that is their own fault. The tools are there (squadding, corporations) and if players aren’t willing to use them they have nobody to blame but themselves.

 

Oh, and I’ll keep my ability to shoot down some micro-warping punk who decides to try and steal my hard-earned loot before I can tractor it in, if it’s all the same to you.

How to decline mission?

How to decline mission?

 

I hit a ‘cancel’ button by accident on day under the daily mission tab in hangar. It changed the mission, which was weird and unexpected. Then again, maybe that only happened because I had more than one daily saved up.

yea probably that.

Personally, all I want is a nice squad interface. I don’t want to be forced into teams. Currently, invasion is pretty neat. It’s got plenty of safe sectors for everyone to feel safe to farm in, some even with aliens. It’s got a few PvP sectors, where people have to take risks. Besides, from what I’ve seen, even in PvP sectors, almost no one attacks anyone else. And if I die because someone else attacked me, it’s my fault for not being careful. Every ship class has some possible response to an attack. So long as you stay out of facetorp range, you’re usually safe.

Yes, I’d love the ability to work together in invasion. But it shouldn’t be forced upon people. What I like about invasion is the freedom of choice - to be able to attack, and yet willingly not. Teams are not the solution.

The advantage of teams is that it allows for more exciting missions and events. Currently, you pretty much have to assume pilots are alone when designing for Invasion; teams would mean you can create more group focused content.

Missions, for example. Currently, missions are pathetic. ‘Go here, watch a transport fly across the map, and possibly kill three low-level bots who can barely scratch your shields’ pales compared to even a single round of PvE.

Even with teams players are not forced to work together, but it does allow them to come together more efficiently when events like Bios kick off.

Even with teams players are not forced to work together, but it does allow them to come together more efficiently when events like Bios kick off.

 

See, but I don’t really want to be that much more efficient when bios come in. I can usually take them alone, and keep the loot to myself. And yes, help would be really nice sometimes, like when I fail to notice a large group of pirates about to start shooting at me while I try to take down some bios, but to be honest, I wouldn’t really care either way. I just feel like forcing people on to teams is just taking the entire option out.

 

On the other hand, I do ask from time to time if people in the sector want to squad to kill the aliens. Sometimes, help is nice. But I don’t want it all the time. Simply adding a nicer squad interface would make life ever so much easier.

I like it as-is. I mean, yeah, some team-involvement would be nice, but 99% of the time I fly solo and do fine in invasion.