Lets talk about the reward - punishment system

Game Discussion Levelling and Economy
1

Yesterday I got a tip from the game to not hesitate sacrificing my ship to achieve a common goal. That was obvious to me, but triggered a thought process. I just started to play T3 a couple of days ago, and the credit reward - repair/refill cost ratio took a very sharp turn down (in T3 battles with my T3 ship with good points), so I’m more sensitive to the material stuff now.

 

What I thought is: if i should sacrifice my ship to the common goal than why is it penalized? Yeah, dying means you probably did something bad. Or does it? I die many times protecting the bomb carrier or some other objective or capturing a beacon with my last strength. And i get punished for it.

The problem is: its hard to grasp what is bad play. Picking the 5th long range frigate for a team is probably a bad idea, but not always. Disabling your buffs is not a teamplay option, but sometimes it saves the day (for example you can tank that extra damage through your diffuse shield).

 

If you remove penalties and lower rewards you stay the same in credits (i dont think many people get negative net results), but you wont punish good behavior which you encourage by tips. Identifying reward worthy behavior seems to be more easy, your point already does this more or less (not perfect, but with a little tuning its good enough).

2

Tbh. screw that Tip and dont die. You serve your team better the longer you live. 

Of course I dont mean hanging back and doing nothing with this. 

Just try to take controlled risks. 

Also there are very very few situations where one player can turn the tide in one match… 

 

But maybe Im too long in this game and the resignation kicked in (in Terms of winning/loosing). 

3

Now this is a broad question. It all comes down to what you really want from the game.

 

When I started I set a goal: I want a high win ratio first, and a high k/d ratio second. These are the main objectives.

 

I want to win the game, but I also want to destroy a lot of ships, and keep a good ratio without dying. This goes hand in hand with why dying is not good as I will explain.

 

You can set different goals, you can play for dsr and try to never die, or play for objectives and helping the team only for wins. I suggest your primary goal should always be to win the game (take a risk if you have a good chance of helping, not bothering for your dsr, which is second), while a healthy dsr and little deaths is a good thing too, so don’t just go sacrificing yourself in blind hope. I will explain why.

 

Now, whether to die or not to die. I say the game teaches you wrong.

 

A destroyed ship is a useless ship. Even if you are a quarter hull and survive, you are still helping more than being dead and stuck on respawn timer, away from objective. This is how almost every pug game starts going wrong: as soon as we start losing ships and presence on the main front, we are getting weaker and enemy starts pushing in. The more the ships you lose in a short time, the bigger the advantage grows. And once the advantage is over 2 ships lost or more on one side, the battle is pretty much decided. Because it just not at that moment that you have lesser numbers, but over the course of the entire remaining game (in 90% of cases), the team will be spread out due to different respawn timers, and you will be constantly outnumbered , because people don’t know how to regroup. 

 

Ergo, the saying: “those idiots are just going in 1 by 1”. “This was an easy game. They were just coming in 1 by 1, like lemmings”. It is because they started losing at their first push, and we thinned them out, after that their respawns have set them apart, being constantly outnumbered and never regrouping against our evolving Hydra group, which you cannot kill, because if you cut one of us off, we still have full force and will replenish quickly, while you are still being at a disadvantage. So even if you sacrifice yourself in that case for… whatever it might be, it does NOT help. 

 

So DON’T die. As long as you don’t die, it is much faster to get healed up, or just get healed up a little, your modules will get ready and you can help deny enemy push by suppressive fire and active module counter. Also, regroup. Power is in numbers.

 

As long as you are there, you are still helping. Take controled risks. Whenever you start taking damage, check your attacker, see if you can deal with him, if not, pull back to your team and geat healed up. If he follows you trough the lines, your team will probably take him down. Whenever you have 2 or more lock-ons, evade and pull back immidately. 

 

Sacrificing is not worth, except in two situations:

 

  • if you carry the emp bomb and you have a good chance of making the plant

  • if 4+ enemy ships are chasing you through the map, while the rest of your team captures a beacon in realistic, you made a very nice distraction - even if you lost your 1 life ship, you got your team a beacon. Can also work in other game modes as well, sometimes.

4

I didnt really ask for advices on how to play, this post would be much better suited for a beginner’s how to play tutorial. I still dont see how punishing death is a good way to promote team oriented play.

5

… There’s a difference between “taking risks and sacrificing yourself for the greater good” and “obviously suiciding yourself so you get some points”. The game SHOULD penalize suicidal tactics, not dying under enemy fire.

6

I didnt really ask for advices on how to play, this post would be much better suited for a beginner’s how to play tutorial. I still dont see how punishing death is a good way to promote team oriented play.

 

 

… There’s a difference between “taking risks and sacrificing yourself for the greater good” and “obviously suiciding yourself so you get some points”. The game SHOULD penalize suicidal tactics, not dying under enemy fire.

 

Indeed. Rewards are FINE especially if you dont play T5. 

If you go for suicidal and pointless “CHAAAARGE-tactics” you DESERVE to be punished. Its the best way (but still not perfect) to stop players from abusing the missile-mechanics. Just suicide-charge and respawn with full missiles. 

THAT is just bad playing. 

 

And still, for teamplayers also counts the “dont die” rule, if you die you cant support your team. Yet you still can make profit if you die 1-3 times. 

 

I think its common sense that dieing gets punished. If a solo ship thinks he can buy its team time by charging into certain death (i.e. at a beacon), he is just wrong and his death is pointless. Conclusion: No reward because pointless actions deserve no reward! 

7

I didnt really ask for advices on how to play, this post would be much better suited for a beginner’s how to play tutorial. I still dont see how punishing death is a good way to promote team oriented play.

 

If you just started T3 a couple of days ago and you think ship repairs are high, not to sound rude, this is still being quite new to the game. And we are dealing with people in late T4 and T5 that don’t know these basic things, that is why I wanted to help.

 

Death is not punished enough, but inneficiency is. Actually, with the repair cost, death is punished in a wrong way. It hinders your progression, thus making it harder and harder if you’re not doing expectionally well.

 

You will get a lot of credits and sinergy if you score good points on your team, no matter how many times you die. Even more, if you die and switch several ships, you will earn more sinergy total. I see however that punishing dead by paying repairs might promote staying alive, but is holding you back because if you die often and don’t score well, and don’t have license or dlcs, than yes, you might be having a very hard time advancing. Because even I am running low on cash after 3000 games, with licensed play from the first day. 

 

Don’t auto-repair, it is cheaper to repair manually. Try to score more points for the team while you’re trying to stay alive more. 

 

You asked if the game is right by promoting death. As we said, generally this isn’t true, but if you’re in such a situation that even repair bills are a problem for you (I’m spending much more on booster modules that repair bills are worth), than you definetely should not ever try to die, no matter the case. Because if you want credits, it doesn’t matter if you win or lose - you will get them the same, as long as your score is higher. I already set you need to set a goal, on what you want to do.

 

So a simple answer to what you asking is score points, don’t die, be selfish and don’t care about winning, if you want to save money. 

Yes, game mechanics are promoting bad play, but the game is telling you another thing. I am not suggesting this, but this is a design fault.

 

Solution: credit rewards for losses should be half of what you earn, ship repairs a little lower, and winning games credits slightly higher to compensate.

 

20% more if you win

40% less if you loose

33% cheaper ship repairs

 

This might sound harsh and make you earn a bit less money, but as long as your w/l ratio is above 1.2 you are making a profit, and this would promote better team play.

8

Premium ships have no repair costs when dying.

 

And I do play a lot careless with them due to that (uninterested in artificial DSR).

 

 

PS: Stalling, distracting opponent, even if it means you yourself die, is totally rational and normal tactic, outside SCon and inside.

 

It is totally thematic decision if it is allowed, rewarded or not.

9
  1. If you just started T3 a couple of days ago and you think ship repairs are high, not to sound rude, this is still being quite new to the game. And we are dealing with people in late T4 and T5 that don’t know these basic things, that is why I wanted to help.

 

 

  1. Don’t auto-repair, it is cheaper to repair manually.

 

  1. Yes, game mechanics are promoting bad play, but the game is telling you another thing. I am not suggesting this, but this is a design fault.

 

Solution: credit rewards for losses should be half of what you earn, ship repairs a little lower, and winning games credits slightly higher to compensate.

 

20% more if you win

40% less if you loose

33% cheaper ship repairs

 

This might sound harsh and make you earn a bit less money, but as long as your w/l ratio is above 1.2 you are making a profit, and this would promote better team play.

 

  1. Its ok to help, i appreciate anything, there must be many stuff i still dont know about the game, but this is not that topic. I’m an adult myself, and i brought up a point, and dont want to get patronized when its a pretty valid one.

 

  1. I heard it many times, not measured it myself yet. Why would it be the case though? Why would the devs think its a good idea?

 

  1. See this is why i opened the topic. I’d say +20% -20% is more reasonable, as the overall win ratio will be 1.0, if you have 1.2 someone will have 0.75 (of course this is not this simple, but you see). If you win consistently and above 1.0 than the matchmaking is not functioning well, not giving you a good challenge.

 

How can we get a dev or designer answer this concern?

10

They are checking the forums regulary, but to be sure post it in suggestion forum (with suggestion for improvement). You can also contact Antibus to bring a certain situation or proposal to specific attention, he has the most contact between the developers and us here on the forums.

11

This game has tips?

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Probaly in the loading screens which I see for 0.1 seconds…

12

This game is also a high grind. Some people are prone to just care about contracts then anything else. 

 

I seen people know they completed a contract and then go AFK. 

 

this game is Unbalanced, biased towards Quantity over Quality, and above all else something that people who now pay money can enjoy. 

13

Each situation should be judged on its own merit. You should only sacrifice your life if the potential outcome is worth it. E.g. when you are directly contributing towards an objective, or sacrificing yourself to save a more important team mate.

 

Needless risks or squandering your life are the signs of a bad and/or inexperienced pilot. An experienced and skilled pilot knows when to take risks, and when not to.

14

Each situation should be judged on its own merit. You should only sacrifice your life if the potential outcome is worth it. E.g. when you are directly contributing towards an objective, or sacrificing yourself to save a more important team mate.

 

Needless risks or squandering your life are the signs of a bad and/or inexperienced pilot. An experienced and skilled pilot knows when to take risks, and when not to.

 

Still doesnt adress the fact that the system PUNISHES me if i die, no matter WHY did i do it. See the problem? If there is no punishment, death is still bad, because you lose time, so you lose opportunities to get points. With an only rewarding system (lowering the rewards so net gain stays the same) the problem would just go away, you can reward good behavior and not punish ambigous ones.

15

Several realizations and concerns I have about this post:
 

  1. Repairs are a punishment for playing the game the way the developers suggest that you play it.
     

  2. As I mainly flew covert ops, I was expected to use suicide tactics. When the developers give you a suicide module, they know you will use it. But it is the only module that I can think of that directly punishes a pilot after the match for using it during the match. What good is a module that I only use 1 or 2 times in a match? You should use that slot in the most efficient way. And if playing efficiently includes not dying, then nobody should equip it and the developers should remove it.
     

  3. Not all useful deaths are rewarded. You just distracted 2+ pilots, without killing any, and gave the edge to your team? Sorry, no points for your “worthless stunt”. I once went on a suicide run targetting the enemy captain. I did half the damage to him, but I got no points for it. The follow up kill was later than the assist timer and my team quickly wiped out the remaining forces of the other team before I could respawn and rejoin the battle.
     

  4. What if my team is going to lose and my points will be insignificant because I’m attempting to complete objectives any rational pilot will judge to be impossible? Might as well reward myself by losing quickly so I can start another match.

 

  1. You can’t punish losing too much, it’s not like this is a job. People play this game for entertainment, and if useless efforts are not rewarded enough or are punished too harshly, only great players will stay. Not a good situation if the developers are looking to make a profit.

 

  1. PvP is not meant to be your main credit source, that would be PvE. PvP is meant to be your loyalty and synergy source. Deaths are the main ways of increasing synergy and some loyalty rewards. If you die as little as possible, you are stealing synergy and possibly some loyalty from other players. (yes, my last statement is meant to sound ridiculous)
16

 

Don’t auto-repair, it is cheaper to repair manually.

 

 

I’m curious on this. Could you explain the reason so a Ace like me can understand?

 

 

“Ace” was not my word.

17

Yes you get punished for dieing, but you also get rewards for “Defending a Beacon”, “Attacking a Beacon”, “Carrying the Bomb”, “Killing the Bomb Carrier”, etc… So if you die doing one of those things you do get rewarded for it. Now I don’t know the math behind it, so you could still be getting punished maybe just not as much.

18

I’m curious on this. Could you explain the reason so a Ace like me can understand?

 

 

“Ace” was not my word.

After a certain point, the cost is maxed out.  In battle you can keep dieing but your repair cost cannot go over that amount until the end of match.  Only 1/100 durability left?  Die ten times, that’ll show the devs who’s boss!

 

Anyway, back to the major topic.  Dieing too much hinders credit progression.  It doesn’t hinder other things that I know of.  Suicidal tactics can depend on the target and your ship.  I know some on the forum hate an cov-op’s self destruct, but I can recall times I died to it while trying to planting a bomb in detonation.  It has a short window of use in that situation.  He got extra efficiency points, and probably more credits as a result.  I doubt the credit boost was worth the repair cost, but his win loss ratio probably went up by a tenth of a percent.  His whole team’s win loss ratio went up by a tenth of a percent!  The thing is, there is a difference of deaths.  Why were you dieing?  The game ignores this.  Play bait and you may die.  It can be fun, and your team may pick up a kill or two.  Your DSR could go down.  The idea of staying alive depends a lot on your ship.  If you’re a frigate going 200m/s, you might not want to die if it will take you two minutes to reach your teammates again.  If you’re going 700m/s, it can be a little more ok if you’re already in a bad situation.  At a minimum you tied up at least one enemy ship.  Strategy and purpose are hard to measure by any computer, and Star Conflict does simplify it.  I pity the guy who tries to make it fairer.  Did you die because you needed to learn?  Did you die because you ended up ambushed and outmatched?  Did you die fulfilling a purpose for a win?

 

As for stats, ignore them.  They count since the beginning a person first played, only DSR has any reflection on recent gameplay.

19

After a certain point, the cost is maxed out.  In battle you can keep dieing but your repair cost cannot go over that amount until the end of match.  Only 1/100 durability left?  Die ten times, that’ll show the devs who’s boss!

 

I would think auto repair does the same as normal repair: repairs ship AFTER battle. I say this because it seems to have a ceiling too (for T2 it seems to be around 20k).

 

For the topic: the question is than.

What is easier: punish bad behavior or reward good one?

Because the punishing part seems totally arbitrary, coming from some “make it more realistic” impulse, punishing dieing and ammo usage but not punishing picking a 5th long range frigate in a beacon hunt. The reward system seems to be more thought through. Not perfect, but if you try to abuse it, its a good chance you also make your team win (that means its a good system).

20

What is “bad behavior” though? 

dying without killing will lower your DSR(useless though), and your rewards are so low you might actually get a negative amount of credits(reward-repairs-ammo).

So in a certain way good and bad behavior already has consequences.