How to Stop Disorientation

When piloting an interceptor around a target I often get disoriented as to where that target is or where I am in relation to objects in the map. I could solve that by strafing without pitching or just not moving. That makes it easier for me to get hit.

When piloting a fighter or frigate defending against a circling interceptor I get disoriented. I just shut down and tried to run if I was maneuverable enough to keep the inty in my sights.

This was how things usually went before I left and now that I have come back after so long it’s worse.

I sometimes see interceptors anal-raeping fighters and frigates and I want to know how to do that. I want to know how to combat an interceptor as well.

Maybe it’s just my playstyle or smth. I usually just sneak up and hope I do enough damage before the opponent realizes. Another way I play is simply by attrition.

Either way, being able to focus in high motion scenes would increase my gameplay and fun tremendously.

Any tips?

Watch a few inspirational dogfighting videos, even if standard atmospheric flight is simple on the first look and not 100% applyable, the knowledge and 3 dimensional understanding of the “dance” is a big step to preimagining and forseeing your flightpath, try to choose the hard fights and commit, have a good fit wich is designed to do that. But also know when to run and come again.

The best way to practise is to fight the strongest and try to adapt if it doesn’t work. Find your own timing of when to attack and when to bait.

Btw if ambushing is your kind of thing, just refine it :slight_smile:

Knowing you a little bit Efefay, you cant dogfight with high ping; good spinning interceptors need a lot of pitch, wich with high ping causes wobble: wobble screws your movement and aim and also help loosing orientation. I usually dont loose orientation even when going adaptive on interceptors (i dont fit verniers so my pitch is kinda low). I kinda guess that having low FPS helps too to get disoriented (also makes aiming a lot harder, so be sure to have a good FPS, ideally over 60 fps) and screen tearing does a similar effect.

 

Also, memorizing the map helps you to catch up quickly if you loose orientation.

Those on the higher ping side would benefit from using strafe builds when using interceptors.

As for when you lose orientation… The maps themselves are generally built as if there were gravity, so all you have to do is look at a structure, and you’ll be able to find the top; however,

When dog-fighting, you should use the spherical radar, it’s the perfect tool, especially when in a dog-fight and more so when you can pin-point where an enemy is without needing to see him/her just by looking at the

radar. It takes some practice, but if you have it down, have fun. If you don’t have it in practice, use it as much as possible and keep a constant eye on it, unless the enemy is cloaked, in which case you’ll really need to keep an eye on them.

I think good ping ad FPS help. But its also that i cannot fly that playstyle after 6k battles, no lack of trying. I think its just a hereditary skill that u cannot learn. I tied to fly exactly same setup (modules and crew) like people who could do it and failed miseralby time and time again. I tried to modify it to my style and failed also. As soon as dogfighting with several players starts game gets a flurry bit of funny colors. 

The following wall of text is an imho. It has no weight, and is probably written by monkeys.

 

I played a lot of Descent when i was a kid, so some things i can’t remember how i learned them. By crashing into a lot of walls. I was terrible in FPS, I liked strategy games. But I understand that for some the fast paced stuff can be disorientating, because I fought with that, since I also loved to do it. Which is actually a good sign, since it means, you are getting immersed, and all you need is to train desorientation away!

 

strafe builds have significant downside to rotation builds in dogfights, well at least to a degree and mastery, and if ping allows both perform in them; i suggest to use a double vernier build at least and only fly it mainly when you have good ping (<70ms); so different fits for different purposes. Not every CO wants to dogfight, and some are concentrating more to kill fighters or large ships off.

 

If you have medium and steady ping (~110-200) you can use the dogfight fit aswell, but above that it is useless, you should fit less rotation to keep the ship steady. with higher ping you have to fly much more precalculating, and avoid close knuckle fights with hit and run attacks, or play more Aikido style using your team like a tower defense for your prey to be killed by bystanders, even if that is somehow a bit of a coward move, you do your job :slight_smile:

You can still win fights, but they will slowly move away from what some call dogfighting. But 1on1 isn’t so important 99% of the time; usually planning your approach and exit, and being aware of other dangers like tacklers, ecms, long ranges, positron or phaser snipers, gauss gunships, mass driver frigates, … you get where i am going … is much more important on the long run anyway. So while performing, you can always try to improve and exercise; even superb pilots have bad days, don’t expect some mechanically achievable mysterious epeen.

 

as for the disorientation, sometimes i fall into that too, when my pilot gene turns off, for various reasons.

in this time i have to rely more on technique than intuition, and try to execute “learned” manouvers, while if i am “in the zone”, usually, i just know where stuff is, without looking, and describing what i do there is sometimes really hard, since i am just… one with my ceptor, in the flow, somehow even along for the ride, because i do stuff surprising myself, and i can concentrate on landing good shots planning how to fly the next curve, and use my modules. Which is where the fast flight becomes really nice as experience, because I can follow it without getting disorientation.

And then there is moments, where you just move your mouse like a crazy person, roll your face over the keyboard, and better tell nobody, that this was the skill you seem to have.

 

Reaching the zone needs a collaboration of “feeling your ship”, so good immersion and knowledge of your controls, and a mix of enjoyment of the fast movement, and not too many complicated thoughts. as long as you are struggling with any part of this, reaching the zone, which is what usually creates a monster dogfighter, is hard: it is not the time to experiment how to aim and shoot, how to use modules, or how the ship behaves, why suddenly that rock is in your way, that all should already be past you.

If this is hard, I think a methodical approach would be to fly the maps and learn them, and try exercising movement where you give yourself microtask, just to train orientation, or dedicate yourself to it, like an astronaut in a gyrowheel. Why fly straight if you could do a crazy manouver through that tiny hole… and then baaam you fail. And you do it again and again, and at some point you see that it improved your flight by 0.0045% or so.

 

Once your ship has a fit you feel is strong enough and good for you, you should exercise it - a lot - until moving with it becomes so natural, that you can basicly fly that thing into a huge inty ball and still dodge and dominate.

For this, familiarity with the ship (so how your game-object is moving, under different ping circumstances) is absolute key. And also keep it in exercise, since well, can’t stay on top without moving your butt, right.

 

In the beginning you will fall out to disorentiation more often, which just means, retreat, take a breath, review what just happened.

 

Make sure you got high fps, even if you turn down beauty, because you want to have a fluid gameplay, so your brain can immerse better.

 

You can also train general aiming, movement, etc. by playing other games, or watching good players on youtube; knowing many games helps adjusting to random situations aswell, since you know how to solve them in an abstract way. I am talking about really miniscule microtasks here, like, how will I fly through that next tunnel, or what does it mean, that you just suddenly got ecm’d. Dynamic stuff happening to you all the time. Microdecisions. The more they are intuitional, the more you can spend thinking about everything else, and this area of relaxed, but concentrated attitude is what you want to have.

 

Play your own strenghts. If the next fight is in your favor, try to play more on manouvering, play with your prey, so you exercise what movements you can use that are good, even if it gives the other pilot the chance to kill you. If the next fight however is hard, concentrate on killing or at least surviving, without forcing yourself to come to the desorientation part.

 

Play 1on1s with friends who are good, or definitely better than you see yourself, but have no problems with a fun fight. Not for hours, but just as long both have fun.

 

For Fighter play against Ceptors, I like flying backwards combined with up/down/left/right strafe, constantly trying to flank them in their rotation. You try to keep your nose to the ceptor, defending, instead of attacking him, forcing him to retreat from your vicinity. Works on most weapons, but I prefer Ions or Gravis, or Phaser. Well, except you sit in something like a BubbleRotation gunship, which can go head on.

For this kind of movement (backing and rotating to the ceptor) you have to be around your team, start the movement back early enough (you need to get to full speed) so this is not a 1on1 suggestion; With a team around you, the Interceptor has to retreat at some point however, or might even be surprised and fly head on in your overdrive/aim overcharge.

 

Also make sure to drink plenty of fluids. It can never be a mistake to be properly hydrated. I asked the Doc on Voyager about this.

 

These were all the ideas i had. If you can use some of them, pick em up, otherwise, maybe i just have no idea anyway :slight_smile:

Having fun is the biggest part, you play better if you have fun. Which is why sometimes complete soloing with ceptors only and some loud music is maybe also a good tip. Ignore the world, shoot the red stuff.

As long as you do your job in the game mode. Coz ruining others’ fun isn’t fun. It is evil, and will lead you to the path of arrogance and self delusion, and you will just stop improving at some point because you are thinking you are the best and stuff and be an easy kill for the rogue squadron, no matter how large your epeen grows. Don’t choose the dark side of the force, Lukefefay!

When piloting an interceptor around a target I often get disoriented as to where that target is or where I am in relation to objects in the map. I could solve that by strafing without pitching or just not moving. That makes it easier for me to get hit.

When piloting a fighter or frigate defending against a circling interceptor I get disoriented. I just shut down and tried to run if I was maneuverable enough to keep the inty in my sights.

This was how things usually went before I left and now that I have come back after so long it’s worse.

I sometimes see interceptors anal-raeping fighters and frigates and I want to know how to do that. I want to know how to combat an interceptor as well.

Maybe it’s just my playstyle or smth. I usually just sneak up and hope I do enough damage before the opponent realizes. Another way I play is simply by attrition.

Either way, being able to focus in high motion scenes would increase my gameplay and fun tremendously.

Any tips?

for interceptor, bind turn keys to keyboard and stack turnspeed. this will let you maneuver with “skill” and without getting disoriented. be sure camera is on basic or else you’re not properly utilizing your turrets. Also, in this fashion, due to weapon designs, the only real threat will be thermal. stack thermal resists and rely on wasd mashing. farming will become easy vs your typical pub meat.

but for fighting them, you need to to keep affixing yourself points of reference with one of your eyes, with a strong utilization of peripheral vision. Personally I affix my eyes on target while using peripheral vision to keep clear of obstacles, and trust in my instincts for maneuvering. or in the case of flying an interceptor, gormless mashing of wasd keys.

as far as fighters go, I play empire gunships and command and they are hardly maneuverable so getting disoriented at all is not a thing.

 

Here is my take on it.

First of all, what is a disorientation, what does it mean?

My understanding of this is that inability to quickly distinguish where you are and what direction you are facing/going/have to go in the game.

When one starts doing high rotation dogfighting, for the most part, at the beginning of the career, people more focused on the target and they are not use to keep map and orientation in back of their head anyways, so disorientation comes when one has to terminate a dogfight, to move to an objective, run, or next target. Ability to keep landscape and your current projection in 3d map during the dogfight comes much-much later, after plenty of battles and experiencing those dogfight all over each of the map.

This is a 3d fighting environment, even though we have a virtual horizon, it is very often unclear where the line of the horizon is. Like go to Ice Belt map, go into asteroids and simply rotate your ship 90 and 180 degrees, all of a sudden your brain can not recognise where you are and we don’t have virtual horizons on a hud like we would have in fly simulators. So how to solve this? Learn the map (each map), but here is the trick, you don’t learn 1 map, you pretty much gotta learn each map 4 times. Standard position - horizontal pane, like you come out of the spawn and then rotate 90 deg along your forward axis, and then another 90 and another.

FOr example, create a custom map with 20 bots, use Treshold map, beacon hunt or something, spawn and rotate 180 degrees, and go at it, try to align yourself in that flipped position after each encounter, repeat that for 90 /270 deg.

Unfortunately there is no easy way out, you have to live through the experience, dogfight all over the maps, that all buildups in the back of the brain.

So the points I focused on are:

  • Learn the map not only from the imaginary horizon but from all axis

  • Learn and use the spherical radar when in close combat. (I never got used to spherical when I first started. I’ll try to practice wih it mor often.)

  • Discern when it is good to fly into a sh!tstorm. Pay attention to other enemies and not just the target. (This is pretty much positioning. I need to look at that video again.)

  • When piloting a severely less maneuverable ship, fly in reverse and strafe to dodge incoming fire. Keep your nose facing the enemy without using much rotation. (I used to do that before I left. It was instinct. Now it’s gone. Thanks for the reminder.)

  • Have fun. (I didn’t have fun during the first match I played. I did really well but didn’t have fun.)

  • Practice, practice, practice.

Kosty, you described exactly how I feel when disoriented.

I don’t do dogfighting, but I do sometimes experience this because I try to use the 3D environment as much as a I can, even in a fighter. Flanking includes going up high or low as well, and not just to the sides.

 

Here are my tips for finding out your “horizontal” again, after being lost from target focusing (believe me if you get tunnel vision, it can also happen when strafing ^^).

 

  1) Bacons are always vertical. Find your nearest bacon, and align yourself on it.

 

  2) Empire or jericho frigates are mostly flying in the horizontal plane, since their lack of speed does not allow them to go up high or low to flank (they would be isolated and alone and noowhere near objectives). An exception to this is of course LRFs. So, just find your nearest engi, follow him until you are aligned with him, and then break off.  This also allows you to get heals.

 

That of course, is if you are trying to find the horizontal again. Another option is just NOT to!!! Who cares if you are flying upside down? Just hug the rocks and use your radars (take good note of the “s” in radars, because both are useful and switching between them is key), and go for the next objective, or your nearest friendly frigball if you are trying to escape.  And while doing it, just hug the rocks as much as you can.

 

There we go, this is the only advice I can give, from the perspective of a fighter pilot that has flown interceptors in the past. I think this advice is general enough to apply to interceptors though. Someone please correct me if I’m mistaken :slight_smile:

If you want to practice getting behind a ship, start with frigates since they are slow. You usually tend to use the strafe keys to help you move while pointing at the target. If you find they are beginning to face you and you can’t strafe around, start flying forwards while wiggling (beware of mines etc) .

few things im very interested in dogfights with ceptors. first is that i see a covops fly full 500ish speed and then stop within a second behind the xxxx of a frig and plasmaarc them in the rear. when i try to do it is i either bump them and get thrown back beyond 200m or i still have lot of speed i cant reduce fast enough and drive past him or just cant aim the arc in the right direction(have to fight with the ship cause it starts to wobble in all directions and i cant keep the arc straight). how to do it properly? controlls? build? second thing is i very often see people mostly on ceptors but also on fighters to fly in a direction and somehow shoot backwards or at a 90 degree angle with all guns. an example was a command fighter that kept flying in an infinity pattern and was shooting a frigate at a 90 degree plane to his flying. how is that done? do you use a joystick to fly and a mouse to aim separately or is it some aimbot? 

regards

few things im very interested in dogfights with ceptors. first is that i see a covops fly full 500ish speed and then stop within a second behind the xxxx of a frig and plasmaarc them in the rear. when i try to do it is i either bump them and get thrown back beyond 200m or i still have lot of speed i cant reduce fast enough and drive past him or just cant aim the arc in the right direction(have to fight with the ship cause it starts to wobble in all directions and i cant keep the arc straight). how to do it properly? controlls? build? second thing is i very often see people mostly on ceptors but also on fighters to fly in a direction and somehow shoot backwards or at a 90 degree angle with all guns. an example was a command fighter that kept flying in an infinity pattern and was shooting a frigate at a 90 degree plane to his flying. how is that done? do you use a joystick to fly and a mouse to aim separately or is it some aimbot? 

regards

Keyinds->Free Aim

few things im very interested in dogfights with ceptors. first is that i see a covops fly full 500ish speed and then stop within a second behind the xxxx of a frig and plasmaarc them in the rear. when i try to do it is i either bump them and get thrown back beyond 200m or i still have lot of speed i cant reduce fast enough and drive past him or just cant aim the arc in the right direction(have to fight with the ship cause it starts to wobble in all directions and i cant keep the arc straight). how to do it properly? controlls? build? second thing is i very often see people mostly on ceptors but also on fighters to fly in a direction and somehow shoot backwards or at a 90 degree angle with all guns. an example was a command fighter that kept flying in an infinity pattern and was shooting a frigate at a 90 degree plane to his flying. how is that done? do you use a joystick to fly and a mouse to aim separately or is it some aimbot? 

regards

I’ll separate your questions in numbers to answer you:

  1. Most likely is that cov ops stops using afterburners to not get noticed (if using adaptive camo). Also the cov op must reduce speed with some time to avoid getting to close and crashing the ship (it takes practice to time it right, ping makes this harder since game will still apply reverse speed after you let go “S+shift” for a while).

  2. Aiming plasma arc is really simple: point your mouse to the center of the ship, thats all. Now, if your ship doesnt obey that instantly and instead wobbles, you have high ping and im sorry but you are s.crewed xD. The best you can do is reducing your turn rate the most you can (since the more pitch rate = the more you wobble with high ping). I simply dont run plasma arc since i never get under 140 ping…over 200 it is completely useless against frigates, believe me, ive tried enough. Last thing: someone can tell you: use free aim, free look or open chat to stop your ship…yeah it stop it, but at a random point, you will hardly hit where you want it to aim, its not reliable. Also, keybinding pitch to keys generates the same wobble so its worthless. Your last choice is using expert fly mode (theres no wobble), good luck compensating the “delay kick” and bye to your extended gun fire angle.

Conclusion: high ping = no plasma arc.

  1. “i very often see people mostly on ceptors but also on fighters to fly in a direction and somehow shoot backwards or at a 90 degree angle with all guns. an example was a command fighter that kept flying in an infinity pattern and was shooting a frigate at a 90 degree plane to his flying. how is that done?”: Cruise engine reduces your turn rate a lot while using afterburners, wich allows you to make wide orbits and shoot (about 90º more or less, usually with 2 guns only). Basically its the same than a dogfighting interceptor but with a lot less turn rate. You can also use free aim as john161 says (to shoot everywhere no matter where your ship is facing), but you cant drive your ship while on it UNLESS you keybind your turn keys, wich means you will have to set speed at a fixed value with AB on, otherwise you wont have enough fingers to make it xD (or a nice keyboard that allows you pushing all those keys without blocking itself).

My experience is anyway, that a Plasma Arc on a dogfight fit is only working once or twice on a skilled opponent, from there on, you will basicly turn into a Ceptor with one module less, and the WN would have been a better choice, even if your enemy does not need targeting, at least you block him from targeting modules and in the right time can disorient him, which might also be possible with experienced players if you hit them in the “wrong moment”, besides of rounding the fit better against ECMs. Oh wait, this might sound weird on a thread about disorientation :stuck_out_tongue:

 

Using the Arc in a CO-faceoff basicly can blow up in your face.

 

So flying a not-full-rotation fit with them is anyway more sane, as you might want to adjust other specs of your fit aswell, since you are stopping a lot more and might use your co mainly against larger targets as a result, where the extra damage comes in more handy. Might be even worth trying to increase acceleration :slight_smile:

 

Anyway the Arc is also a perfect example of Afterburner Micromanagement, something the Eagle-B teaches you indirectly, since having a shift-finger can be exploited aswell :slight_smile:

 

Good thoughts from Kosty, never really cared about the maps, might try this methodical approach. Time I learn them. I can personally say, playing through Descent 1 & 2 will also work wonders in spatial orientation :slight_smile:

But this is anyway a skill that is independent from the game as well to some extent, so training it in a video game is quite a good opportunity. Which is why I think immersion is so important, but at the same time, can even cause “real” disorientation side effects like headache or dizziness in extreme cases (or after a little bit much drinks…).

My tips playing as a ceptor.

 

-Learn maneuvers that help you rotate around an enemy, but keeping your guns trained on them.

 

-Learn maneuvers that allow you to hit them, turn about and dodge fire, then hit them again, and repeat this process.

 

AdamWest made a great video about playing covops (here:

). In it he has a lot of good pointers for how to be succesful, many will help remove your disorientation.

 

Also, another thing that has helped me is remember there is no up or down in space. Whichever way your ship is oriented means nothing. Just use beacons or your teammates as “nav-points” so you can still remember where to go/fall back to.

The enemy’s gate is down. 

All your beacons are belong to us

The enemy’s gate is down.

forget your hawaiian, Ender loving mindset.

Go to the east coast where apathy reigns and hi-beams are common.