Empire Fighters / Interceptors too tanky in T2?

I’m curious whether or not I’m the only one who feels this way. I’m finding that Empire fighters, especially the Phobos and Deimos, are extraordinarily hard to kill. To the point that a well-fit Deimos has more survivability than a Federation Frigate does.

Aye, Deimos II’s are gods of space.

Alright, personal anecdotes so far, but… I’m seeing a lot of Deimos 2’s in PVP now, almost always 2-4 per team.

I’ve seen a Deimos 2 fly to a cap point, with 1 frigate and 2 fighters defending it - and then just sit there, not even moving just spinning in circles shooting at one of the fighters, while being focused by all three - and then taking out the fighter it was shooting at, and flying away with about 1/3rd hull left.

I’ve seen a Deimos 2 jump into the middle of four frigates protecting the captain, get focused and hit by all of them and STILL manage to kill the Captain he was after before dying.

I feel they’re far too strong at the moment. Hull doesn’t automatically repair like shields do so additional hull tank makes some sense, but a lot of better frigate players will run hull reps, so that mitigates the biggest disadvantage of hull tanking. Particularly for fighters, who can run from a battle to repair, and especially for the Deimos 2 and Phobos who have more than enough hull health to get out of any fight that is a losing proposition.

Any other fighter that jumps into a fight and gets focused by a couple fighters and a frigate dies. Deimos 2 / Phobos just flies away for repairs or absorbs so much sheer focused firepower and damage before death that other fighters can use the distraction to their advantage. When each of those other fighters is ALSO a Deimos 2 / Phobos, it gets ridiculous. I don’t say this lightly - You need half your team to focus fire on a Deimos 2 to kill it in the same time frame as any other fighter would die in a 1vs1. Deimos 2 can go 2vs1 and win killing both, 3vs1 and kill the target and get out, 4vs1 and kill the target but die doing it.

It’s not just damage mitigation either, overdrive gives it a 66% boost to rate of fire (And speed/maneuverability AND energy generation), its inherent bonus also gives it a +10% boost to damage

Let’s do a bit of math (Decimals rounded):

Base Deimos 2 with no Synergy has:
Hull HP: 7130
Kinetic: -5 (Effective: 6,774)
EM: 50 (Effective: 10,695)
THM: 25 (Effective: 8,913)

Shield HP: 4030
Kinetic: 40 (Effective: 5,642)
EM: -20 (Effective: 3,224)
THM: 10 (Effective: 4,433)

Average Effective Hitpoints:
Hull HP: 8,794
Shield HP: 4,433
Total HP: 13,227

Maximum effective hitpoints (vs EM Hull, Kinetic Shield): 16,337
Plasma EM x4 DPS: 1,476

Now let’s add modifiers, and implants, and modules…



+30 Hull resistance (Jericho Rank 1 implant)
+50 Hull resistance (Overdrive ability)
+28 hull resistance (Polarization Coating Module)

+25 Shield resistance (Jericho Rank 3 implant)
+42 EM Shield resistance (EM Barrier Module)

+45% hull strength (Armor Plated Hull Module)
+12.5% hull strength (Ablative Armour Module)

+7% Main weapon damage (Empire Rank 6 implant)
+10% Main weapon damage (Deimos 2 Bonus)
+5% Main weapon damage (Racial ability)
+5% Main weapon damage (Active booster)
+16.7% Damage (Valkyrie Combat Module)
+6.8% EM damage (Enhanced Plasma Module)
+4.8% Kinetic damage (Needle System Module)
+66% Rate of Fire (Overdrive)

This doesn’t even fill up all the slots on the ship, so there’s room for more bonuses, and it also doesn’t include Synergy. (A corpmate mentions his Deimos 2 has ~13000 hull with fittings) But this is what you get:

IN OVERDRIVE
Hull HP: 11230
Kinetic: 103 (Effective: 22,797)
EM: 158 (Effective: 28,973)
THM: 133 (Effective: 26,166)

Shield HP: 4030
Kinetic: 65 (Effective: 6,650)
EM: 47 (Effective: 5,924)
THM: 35 (Effective: 5,441)

Total Average
Hull HP: 25,979
Shield HP: 6,005
Total HP: 31,984

Maximum Effective HP (vs EM Hull, Kinetic Shield): 35,623
Plasma EM x4 DPS: 3,688
Plasma Kinetic x4 DPS: 3,639



NOT IN OVERDRIVE
Hull HP: 11230
Kinetic: 53 (Effective: 17,182)
EM: 108 (Effective: 23,358)
THM: 83 (Effective: 20,551)

Shield HP: 4030
Kinetic: 65 (Effective: 6,650)
EM: 47 (Effective: 5,924)
THM: 35 (Effective: 5,441)

Total Average
Hull HP: 20,364
Shield HP: 6,005
Total HP: 26,369

Maximum Effective HP (vs EM Hull, Kinetic Shield): 30,008
Plasma EM x4 DPS: 2,221
Plasma Kinetic x4 DPS: 2,192



Here is my Jericho Templar AE Frigate (Synergy 5) for comparison:
Hull HP: 4388
Kinetic: 15 (Effective: 5,046)
EM: 75 (Effective: 7,679)
THM: 45 (Effective: 6,363)

Shield HP: 16778
Kinetic 65: (Effective: 27,683)
EM 47: (Effective: 24,664)
THM 35: (Effective: 22,650)

Total Average
Hull HP: 6,363
Shield HP: 24,999
Total HP: 31,362

Maximum Effective HP (vs EM Hull, Kinetic Shield): 35,362
Assault Laser EM x6 DPS: 1,522
Assault Laser THM x6 DPS: 1,552



In overdrive, the Deimos has about the same tank as my frigate, and more than double the effective firepower. While it is not in overdrive, it STILL has nearbouts the tank of an average frigate. What that means, is that even if the Deimos 2 fighter just stood still and took every hit, it could go toe to toe with a frigate. In practice, it actually does better, because the frigate cannot keep weapons on the Deimos 2 while it strafes and circles, and the frigate cannot make use of its missiles effectively, while the Deimos 2 can.

the T1 aren’t very even either.  Was just fighting against a Steel Harpy in my Raptor Mk2.  I totally sneaked up on the dude and his whole shield was down before he even started shooting at me and somehow he won 1v1.  My shots were hitting just fine…  I had my assault drones up with me as well.  This is VERY inbalanced…  their is no reason that I should lose when I got the drop on him and I was accurately hitting him.

 

That sniper ability is kinda overpowered as well…  Anyone flying a frigate is going to instantly give up their shield before they can even pray to get out of it’s targeting range…  Seen many players do nothing at all but hide in the back to use that lame sniper…sorry but that’s really not much fun and it really controls your ship choice if your lame teammates allow it to continue.  Of course I can easily kill it with a fighter but I was trying to play the frigate.

T1 empire ships are best because Plasma guns are best. Disintegrate is crazy good at T1 too. But, it is T1 and you shouldn’t be spending too much time there. It’s basically the games tutorial. 

 

Deimos II is very tanky though. Compare it to the shield fighter tank, the Machete AE, and it feels so much heftier. I fly both fit to tank so I am basing this on experience. Even with crazy micro-management of the annoying Jeri fighter ability leaves it feeling weaker than the Deimos II. (Which ability, by the way, really needs the game’s projectiles to be coloured to their damage type; so, a laser in em mode is blue, plasma in kinetic mode is yellow etc, and its energy cost removed.)

 

Again though, stasis (ion too in this case) mod rules all. Wait for the Deimos to pop overdrive and zap the bugger to cancel it. Still tanky as hell, but much less so when you remove the dual threat/survival of his ability. Does require you to have an Int friend, or to be flying one yourself of course.

 

But yeah, those empire fighters are very scary in T2. 

I know that the empire ships all have a higher hull by default. Their shields start lower. It’s just part of their racial bonuses I believe. It could be much higher than intended, but realize that it is suppose to be high and that most Empire ships, especially the inty’s I’ve read, are much slower than their counter parts.

The point being made, is that it is too high and it does too much damage.

 

The Deimos 2 gets all the benefits of being a Frigate and none of the drawbacks. It’s a command fighter, so it even gets area buff auras like a frigate, better ones than just straight up shield/hull reps, too.

 

A Deimos 2 is a frigate. That’s a simple fact. It has the firepower of a frigate thanks to damage bonuses, it hast the tank of a frigate thanks to resistances, it has the auras a frigate would be jealous of because it’s a command ship, and it has the speed and maneuverability that puts every other frigate to shame.

 

If the Deimos 2 were literally a frigate, people would still be saying it’s OP, because it is the single best frigate in the game, with the ability to increase damage significantly at that push of a button, for the entirety of a fight, while also boosting its own survivability, speed and maneuverability at the same time and having access to completely different and better auras that no other frigate can use, and far more missiles than any frigate can use.

 

What downside does this ship have?? It literally gets everything but sanic speed and crowd control that interceptors have. Not a single other fighter can match it in a 1vs1 fight, the Deimos 2 goes toe to toe with frigates and wins.

 

How can people still think this is balanced?

thanks to this forum post enough people now use the deimos 5 to 6 deimos on an enemy team now force a certain tactic on any team and the whole strategy is now reverted to fly a tank yourself in order to have any chance to win a match. i do not think that it is a balance when you get your ship choice forced upon you. I even tried to counterfit a Jericho Fighter to get as nearly the same results on resistances and where always a lot of from what they combine on Hull+ Resistances. that and the overdrive doesn’t even make interceptors a viable option, even the imperial frigates are outgunned on them. That makes them a real game breaker for EMP Modes. The Other Modes they are annyoing to but you can pick a fight with them but take double or tripple the time to destroy them compared to their counterparts in other Factions. So i’d suggest that either the resistances get a nerv or the overdrive but both overpowers this Ship way to much.

There has been a discussion on this before, Its not really the fact is that they tank well its just that they can ‘fit’ a very good tank at tier2 and up. All ship classes of each tech level can be fitted similarly, the only difference being secondary weapon types like missiles. Example being all basic tech2 ships have a passive module and two actives. All the faction ships in tech3 have two passives and four actives. Its probably why the dam thing can tank quite well, excluding the role and class specific modules, its not as different as outfitting a frigate.

The Legion overdrive ability does make the thing into the incredible hulk but really it is on a long cool down and it is just as vulnerable as any fighter without it. Interceptors can easily counter these ships by disabling their abilities also.

I feel like all repairs should only repair a portion of damage taken. Shields can go full, but hull has a max limit. Otherwise there should be a team wide starting zone where people can run to to repair. 

There has been a discussion on this before, Its not really the fact is that they tank well its just that they can ‘fit’ a very good tank at tier2 and up. All ship classes of each tech level can be fitted similarly, the only difference being secondary weapon types like missiles. Example being all basic tech2 ships have a passive module and two actives. All the faction ships in tech3 have two passives and four actives. Its probably why the dam thing can tank quite well, excluding the role and class specific modules, its not as different as outfitting a frigate.

The Legion overdrive ability does make the thing into the incredible hulk but really it is on a long cool down and it is just as vulnerable as any fighter without it. Interceptors can easily counter these ships by disabling their abilities also.

 

It’s not ‘just as tanky as a normal fighter’ without overdrive, it’s still Frigate-tier. It has high-60’s to 100’s hull resists without overdrive.

 

It is not ever ‘vulnerable’, just ‘less overpowered’.

 

Frankly, if it’s going to be acting like a frigate, it should have the speed and maneuverability of one to make it fair. Or it needs a massive reduction in survivability or damage to bring it in line with every other fighter.

So 90+ Kinetic and 100+ on the other two is less tanky? My Acid Hydra doesnt even have that high resistances on default and it is a major game changer when this resistances are on hull if you regenerate shield to you get additional points on your defence while still dishing out a load of damage. I could go into numbers crunching but it’s still beyond good and evil how much it takes to only take one of this tanks out.

Let’s clear some stuff up right now. I’m currently in T2 and I see how OP the Deimos II is.

I have been out maneuvered in a dogfight between my Ricasso (Really fast Jericho Interceptor) and a Deimos II on more than one occasion. I can usually win any dog fight with my Ricasso, in fact, I’ve won most of them. But I don’t think I’ve ever won against a Deimos II.And typically I empty my missile racks on these guys. I use my EM missiles for shields and piercing for hull. Oh and my Ricasso has full T2 Mk 3 modules.

I tried in my Fox-M, get totally destroyed by Deimos IIs, tried a Wasp, no dice.

I was team captain in my Jericho Frigate with really good modules for shield strength and resistance. My buddy on Skype is defending me along with some randoms in the game… We see an enemy coming and start firing, I previously hit him with a torpedo as well. Before me or my team knew it, my shields were gone and I was almost dead, by the time I can actually see his type of ship (Deimos II) I died. He had 4 people firing at him (2 frigates and 2 interceptors I believe) and he ended up killing me (team captain) and another one of the defenders before he got taken out.

On average I would probably get 2-4 kills per game, depending on the game mode.

So I decided to rank up Empire to 6 and buy myself a Deimos II. Can you guess the results of my first game?

7 kills 5 assists. 1 blind rage medals (killing 2 ships while in overdrive mode) Heres how it went down. Keep in mind, this is my first game ever with Deimos 2. Synergy is still 1.
I had 3 kills already, and was flying around looking for a fight. I got into a dogfight with an interceptor. He was fast, but thats what engine suppressors are for… So I suppressed him, took him out in no time. He took my shields down but obviously that doesn’t scare a Deimos II. Another guy came at me… he was flying straight at me, I killed him before he got to me, 2 more came after me, I was at half hull no shields. Popped my Valkyrie module and my Overdrive, they took down my hull to about 10% but I destroyed them both
 with no help.  So with 10% hull left I chase another guy take him out too, then the game ends. No deaths and 7 kills.

My 2nd game? 10 kills 6 assists 1 blind rage medal.

on one game on Detonation I followed my teammate who was carrying the bomb. I killed 5 people and got 1 assist on our journey to the beacon.

no matter how well I play, I never got those types of scores on any of my other ships. 

I should also mention that I had the Deimos 2 outfitted with MK. 1 modules because I was just testing it out. I can only imagine if I had Mk 3s.

My point? Deimos 2 is OP. and it’s not just because of overdrive. That just makes it even more OP. 

Am I gonna keep playing Deimos II? Hell yeah, whenever I use my Fox, I get shredded by other Deimos IIs… eff that. Empire is the favored faction by the Devs. If you notice there’s quite a few medals based around Empire but hardly any for Feds or Jericho. Jericho torpedo got nerfed, but no nerf to Empire snipers? Hull strength is OP. Shield strength for Jericho is sub par. (My ricasso only has 5k shields and I have a lot of resistance, but it still goes down quick, and with a hull of 1600, I’m instantly dead when shields are gone)

This ends my rant. Empire OP. Including Empire interceptors as team captains. lulz.

While i appreciate that the Deimos 2 got a bit of a beatdown, you overlooked the Phobos Aura in the Patch, same issue as with the deimos just a little less tanky with 1000hp less. t2 is still broken. sadly.

So 90+ Kinetic and 100+ on the other two is less tanky? My Acid Hydra doesnt even have that high resistances on default and it is a major game changer when this resistances are on hull if you regenerate shield to you get additional points on your defence while still dishing out a load of damage. I could go into numbers crunching but it’s still beyond good and evil how much it takes to only take one of this tanks out.

 

Should get your facts straight really.

 

Deimos 2 has 70/85/100 resists if you fit it properly.

Phobos Aura has 87/100/117 for me.

 

Only reason Deimos 2 is more durable for a brief period is the +50 resists from Overdrive.

Outside that, Phobos Aura is more durable even though it has 1300 less hull.

 

I honestly don’t get the QQ about these ships, I fly them both and Fox-M on regular basis and never had any troubles with either of them when flying Fox-M simply because they really can never hit me on my Fox-M.

 

Sure they are both durable as hell but they are not gods like you make it out to be, they will still fall over if people focus on them.

I have seen Acid Hydras that are a lot more durable than either of these two.

My facts where straight last nigt… Really. But thats okay.

with 12v12 back, their tankiness is not that much of an advantage anymore…I’m switching back to fox from Deimos

Random anecdotes are random.

Call me when you get to T3.

You know walkyrie is a permanent module right ?

You know walkyrie is a permanent module right ?

No, but the Valkyrie is. Dunno what you talk about to be honest.

 

I also doubt we need a thread about empire fighters in every board, where the same guys post the same arguments.