This “terrible nerf” that was supposed to “break engineers and guards” did little to the power and success rate of OP frigate balls. But according to forum cries they are “not viable anymore!” Clearly, reality must be wrong.
Screens from games played today:
gonna have to say I’m not sure what I’m looking at from your screenies. Coz the one I see clearly is the last one saying you won and pawned everyone using your inty rawr…
gonna have to say I’m not sure what I’m looking at from your screenies. Coz the one I see clearly is the last one saying you won and pawned everyone using your inty rawr…
I understand your problem now. You ignore whatever facts are in your face when you don’t like them. Such as the engineer consistently topping my score in those games. Or the frigate balls.
hehe ok sarcasm aside, srsly what am i looking at?
almost my bedtime but i was bored enough to look at one of those scoreboards
That frigate on your top3?
He picked up the EMP. If he hadn’t it’d be a fighter taking over his spot
As for fleet composition, it was 5 frigs + 7 non frigs on both sides.
So what am I looking for ?
Waiting for you to realize the gameplay mode and that you get 750 for picking up the bomb and blowing up the station, which accounts for over half of int’s points and the fact that even so, frigs are still high on the list though they essentially cannot get objective points on demolition. So high that they are in fact higher then interceptors who also aren’t getting objective points.
Even more obvious in other gameplay modes.
That and obvious “hey look, the side with more frigs seems to be winning these matches”, but I suppose that would be too obvious again. Need to focus on that fly on the wall over the elephant defecating in the middle of the room.
Waiting for you to realize the gameplay mode and that you get 750 for picking up the bomb and blowing up the station, which accounts for over half of int’s points and the fact that even so, frigs are still high on the list though they essentially cannot get objective points on demolition. So high that they are in fact higher then interceptors who also aren’t getting objective points.
Even more obvious in other gameplay modes.
That and obvious “hey look, the side with more frigs seems to be winning these matches”, but I suppose that would be too obvious again. Need to focus on that fly on the wall over the elephant defecating in the middle of the room.
This is T3, right?
This is T3, right?
You do see the same screenshots and the same ships I do, right?
You do see the same screenshots and the same ships I do, right?
All I see in any of those is a covert ops. So, I’m going to assume it’s Tier 3 until you specify otherwise.
All I see in any of those is a covert ops. So, I’m going to assume it’s Tier 3 until you specify otherwise.
You cannot tell ships apart based on their silhouettes on the score board? Or the classes based on class markers on the hud?
And yes, that’s obviously T3. I don’t fly training tiers.
You cannot tell ships apart based on their silhouettes on the score board?
And yes, that’s obviously T3. I don’t fly training tiers.
Excuse me if I play for fun and not to win. I can generally tell earlier ships apart, but as I do not own any Tier 3 ships as I have yet to stack up enough money to afford even the rank sevens, and the ridiculous repair costs and complaints about Tier 3 have generally left me greatly against the idea of stepping up into the ‘real deal’ as you ‘elitists’ call it.
Tier 2 is more of a Tier where I find myself going up against players with a suitable amount of experience or have dropped down as they have found Tier 3 unsuitable for farming.
Excuse me if I play for fun and not to win. I can generally tell earlier ships apart, but as I do not own any Tier 3 ships as I have yet to stack up enough money to afford even the rank sevens, and the ridiculous repair costs and complaints about Tier 3 have generally left me greatly against the idea of stepping up into the ‘real deal’ as you ‘elitists’ call it.
Tier 2 is more of a Tier where I find myself going up against players with a suitable amount of experience or have dropped down as they have found Tier 3 unsuitable for farming.
I’m not criticizing your choice of tier. If you want to stick to your training wheels and never graduate, it’s your choice and I have no say in it. Granted I don’t really care one way or another though I would certainly appreciate more players for shorter queue times in off peak hours in higher T3 queues. I still remember times with >6k players online and short queues at all times that it brought.
I do expect the same courtesy however, and less complaints that training tier is unbalanced. It always was, and it likely always will be, as it has to be brutally simplified with much fewer mods, lower speeds and higher damage/survivability ratio to enable solo play that is needed for learning environment. Team play cannot be expected in practice tiers where many players are still getting to learn how to play the game in general and that’s not the point of T2 - point is learning the more advanced features of the game and gameplay. That’s why real customization options are not yet unlocked there and why survivability is much lower.
Notably “the real deal” is T4. T3 is about the same as T2 in terms of costs, slightly better if you’re good and slightly worse if you’re not. T4 on the other hand is punishing if you’re average, can push you hard into negative if you’re bad and very rewarding if you’re actually good.
I’m not criticizing your choice of tier. If you want to stick to your training wheels and never graduate, it’s your choice and I have no say in it. Granted I don’t really care one way or another though I would certainly appreciate more players for shorter queue times in off peak hours in higher T3 queues. I still remember times with >6k players online and short queues at all times that it brought.
I do expect the same courtesy however, and less complaints that training tier is unbalanced. It always was, and it likely always will be, as it has to be brutally simplified with much fewer mods, lower speeds and higher damage/survivability ratio to enable solo play that is needed for learning environment. Team play cannot be expected in practice tiers where many players are still getting to learn how to play the game in general and that’s not the point of T2 - point is learning the more advanced features of the game and gameplay. That’s why real customization options are not yet unlocked there and why survivability is much lower.
Notably “the real deal” is T4. T3 is about the same as T2 in terms of costs, slightly better if you’re good and slightly worse if you’re not. T4 on the other hand is punishing if you’re average, can push you hard into negative if you’re bad and very rewarding if you’re actually good.
What your problem is, what everyone’s problem is, is that we’re all trying to argue an opinion, and calling them facts as we do so. Interceptors are OP in Tier 2. That’s an opinion. I won’t call it fact. It’s as simple as that. Most, in fact quite a large majority of the community is saying Tier balancing needs a good tweaking to sort it out. A minority says it’s fine.
A big part of the gaming industry is that listening to the majority is the best course of action. That way, you lose less customers and are more likely to gain more to replace the lost ones. However, there’s always the option to try and do both.
If percentage-based healing was introduced to engineers, I wouldn’t be completely happy with it, but that’s still a nice change. Who knows? I might even warm up to it after a while. I suggested it in the first place as a compromise. Unfortunately, not everything in this game can be compromised upon and should be tweaked to increase the quality of the game as a whole.
Here’s a list of what I’ve noticed people want the most:
The old camera. I liked that more than the current one, but this current one is decent and I wouldn’t mind either way.
Looting. I dislike the current one greatly because of the extraction. Especially when I pay GS to extract.
Balancing. This is what we’re trying to come to an agreement on.
Now, before this conversation continues, I would like to call for someone to drag this back on topic.
I do expect the same courtesy however, and less complaints that training tier is unbalanced. It always was, and it likely always will be, as it has to be brutally simplified with much fewer mods, lower speeds and higher damage/survivability ratio to enable solo play that is needed for learning environment. Team play cannot be expected in practice tiers where many players are still getting to learn how to play the game in general and that’s not the point of T2 - point is learning the more advanced features of the game and gameplay. That’s why real customization options are not yet unlocked there and why survivability is much lower.
I’m gonna defend this statement because this is correct.
I’ve never bothered to argue with T2 players about balancing because most if not all of them who actively post here are also fanatically loyal to that tier. Plus they tend to vote on polls the right way 
and don’t post up obscure screenshots to defend a hidden agenda (rawr)
But @ Sabre - do me a favour, run the numbers from Tier 1 to Tier 3 (use warehouse)
Get the average base main weapon damage and DPS
Do the same for average base survivability (unmodded ship stats - break it down by ship class if you want)
List down the ship mods, active slots, passive slots added moving up the tiers
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for it. But T2 problems are unique on to themselves coz of how things are set up. Do the numbers first.
@ Lucky - I’ll try and video a real frigball for you lol. Haven’t seen one done properly yet last couple of days. Personally I don’t see a problem with it. I only have issues against immortal ships. And those don’t really need that many frigs.
@ Lucky - I’ll try and video a real frigball for you lol. Haven’t seen one done properly yet last couple of days. Personally I don’t see a problem with it. I only have issues against immortal ships. And those don’t really need that many frigs.
Don’t forget the disclamer: “Many SC players were harmed during the making of this video. We apologize for inconvenience, torn out hair and ragequits caused!”
MY squad did a frigate ball, we won every match
bah i went ahead and done it
average effective base DPS
T1 = 182.55
T2 = 161.255
T3 = 168.89
average non-adjusted base ship health
T1 = 10,865
T2 = 12,814.4
T3 = 14,961
DPS : HP
T1 = 1:60
T2 = 1:80
T3 = 1:88
Marginal gains DPS and HP
T1 to T2
-11.7% Dmg
+18% Health
T2 to T3
+4.7% Dmg
+17% Health
Before I start - I’ll summarize first
T2 alledged imbalance is in high damage dealt and the inability for frigates to kill or survive due to visibility. recently buffed non-frig dmg:hp compounded that. Visibility and decision making issues are human factors, game mechanics have minimal bearing or can be mitigated entirely. (disregard extreme close-up cam when it was first implemented, that was partially fixed)
T3 imbalance is strictly an inadequate dmg:hp issue. human factors cannot mitigate the game mechanics.
Frigballs and Immortal Heals are 2 issues that should be looked at separately but they both hinge on 1 denominator, dmg:hp
Ship survivability have increased disproportionately more than damage from T2 to T3 ie. dmg rose by 4% health up by 17%
avg eff base dps remained almost unchanged in T3 from T2 at about 160++ DPS
avg unadjusted base ship hp however rose from 12k to 14k
and average base of 14k is grossly unrepresentative. if you used the screenshot above where there were 5 frigs to 7 non-frigs per fleet and took that as a common composition, you’re looking at:
average adjusted base ship health = 21,634 (5 frigs + 7 non-frigates)
but base effective DPS remains almost the same if not lower coz it’s unlikely to change upwards if you have more frigates so,
base dps:hp in T3 is closer to 1:128 compared to 1:80 in T2 where composition are more even
Frigballs
This is why frigballs work well. Because when frigates had 6 turrets and access to hi DPS fighter class weapons they shot harder on bigger tanks. Numerically it does not compute to fly anything less than a frigate. Non-frigs do have maneuverability over the frigate it’s orbiting but he’s not the one who’s gonna shoot you down, it’s his 4 other Guard buddies who have no trouble aiming at you.
The 3 ship classes are differentiated by Damage, Health and Maneuverability
Frigates Mid-Hi-Lo
Fighters Hi-Mid-Mid
Interceptors Lo-Lo-Hi
Now frigate teamwork negates the speed advantage and takes speed out of the equation so you end up with:
Frigates Mid-Hi
Fighters Hi-Mid
Interceptors Lo-Lo
Fighters on the other hand despite looking like an even alternative doesn’t deliver on the field
Hi damage is only true for Gunships. And they have Lo health with Hi damage only in bursts.
Command can potentially be classed as Frigate equals with Mid-Hi damage + effective health + fighter speed
Tacklers I don’t need to say more.
so 2 of 3 fighters are almost equally screwed as interceptors; only providing niche advantages in very specific scope.
although theoretically this can exist in T2, but with better dps:hp numbers, ppl get by ok. in T3 and at 1:128 base dps to health, frigate spheres refuse to die.
* also note how the 2 other Command modules also buffed frigate disadvantages, damage and speed. although valkyrie is available at T2, Gravi-scanner is not.
Now factor in added ship mods, active slots and passive mods into the mix. how much dmg can you raise versus health (resists and extenders)?
Immortal Heals
Here, Engineer heals and Command buffs extended this problem to non-frigs. Now interceptors and command ships are also refusing to die. The modules for it are not accessible in T2.
Interestingly if you looked at the originating video, the exact ppl who complained about it were also Frigate pilots And the loudest opposition to heal nerfs just happen to be pro interceptor pilots. Those who used to rape interceptors complained. Those who are benefiting, defends.
I’m not pointing fingers, it’s pointless. More importantly however is … who’s right?
Both are justified. Frigs sees it as ridiculous. Inties says yay - we’re on equal footing now.
I fly both the inty (covops+ecm+recon) and engineer so I don’t give 2sheets how the polls go. But I do want immortal heals fixed. Why?
Coz it clouds the underlying problem… Too much HP, Too little DPS
That’s what needs fixing.
T2’s ratio is workable. I read T2 Engineer’s complaints but I don’t feel them. And I fly the Hydra2.
T3 is broken - and it ain’t just the Engineer.
If you were to raise DPS, interceptors gonna scream omfg why buff one-shot kills
If you lowered HP, T2 Frig pilots are gonna - GG, you’ve just lost another customer
If you rebalanced by tiers, drop T3 frig HP and maintained T2 frig HP … how much is enough or effective?
average HP in T2 is 12k in T3 it’s 14k only 2k difference…
Class limited main weapons may look like the way to go but it’s already a mess in current form and still might not solve 1 shot kills.
T2 inties are OP? why? Damage output or Frigate hp lacking? Numbers show neither and I’m inclined to say human factor is at work.
remember this:
Marginal gains DPS and HP
T1 to T2
-11.7% Dmg
+18% Health
Like I said, I fly the Hydra2 and I don’t see nor feel it. But then again I’m on all Blues.
Those OP interceptors? How sure are you they are not on all purples flown by T3 pilots who should have stopped trolling T2 5 weeks ago? How much do their piloting skill and better decision making influence what is or what is not balanced in T2 ? Can you quantify?
Water is all muddied. Hard to see without eliminating externalities. And there are 2 that’s making it hard.
Immortal heals getting in the way of judging a workable dps:health ratio
T3 - T4 pilots still flying T2 on purples.
It’s not a good day to be Gaijin.
+1 to kine for doing the footwork. Your observations and conclusions largely match my own, and the numbers provide an interesting insight.
Like I said, I fly the Hydra2 and I don’t see nor feel it. But then again I’m on all Blues.
I mentioned somewhere on the forums that T2 engies are still pretty much playable, so long as you manage to convince someone to protect you, or you manage to tag along with a bunch of allies. That said, I fly the Hydra 2 as well (which feels better than the Alligator-M, possibly due to better hull tanking abilities), and I have pretty good modules (almost all blue, plus 2 experimentals).
God that made a disturbing amount of sense.
I say that this game requires about 80% skill and 20% equipment usage to be good at.
Okay, I’m going to wade in with my own thoughts on where this situation lies.F
First off, I do honestly think the Interceptors are an issue not only in Tier 2, but in Tier 1 as well. I know player skill is a factor, but let’s look at it this way; if we assume equal skill levels, does the problem remain?
I would like to think of myself as a competent pilot for the most part, but hitting an Inty on full evasive mode is a nightmare. The only time I can consistently destroy an Inty is when I am in a Tackler; every other time it can take 3-4 attackers to down one inty pilot. Assuming a 12 man team, that means there are 3-4 enemy ships who are now roaming the map unmolested.
By contrast, a Fighter or Frigate can easily be contained by a single ship, assuming their DPS / Modules are applied properly. Fighters generally have a hard time containing a Guard or Engineer solo, but it is possible. An Interceptor will easily hold off an isolated Frigate alone.
That seems to be the main issue in Tier 2 - there simply isn’t enough options for shutting down enemy Interceptors. The arguments about “form a frigate ball” are fundamentally flawed because it again leads to the circular argument - the answer is “attack in numbers,” but that means that, logically, there must now be 2-3 Interceptors roaming free and able to engage without fear of the deathball.
I know, I know, this is a team game and it’s not about being able to be a one-man army… but think about this a moment: Most of the people in any given match, especially in Tier 2, are randoms. This means they go into a match with no way of knowing if their allies have brought the ships they need to make their tactics work, or even if they will engage in tactics. Hell, it’s not like Tier 3 is purely Corps and Squads - I’d wager at least half the people even every match are still soloing. As such, for the sake of keeping people engaged, it pays to balance the game assuming that only basic teamwork is taking place.
This does have another advantage of course - if you balance for solo, you should also be balanced for teamwork. If every ship has two-to-three ships it is very strong against and two-to-three it is very weak against, then it’ll all work out - solos can matter just by hunting down and engaging the ships they are strong against, and teams can organise their roster so they cannot simply be rolled by a single type of opponent.
I think that in Tier 3 the main reason the Interceptor appears to be ‘weak’ is primarily due to the sheer amount of grouped counters. This is not strictly a good thing, however, because it means that the underlying imbalance remains - it’s just being hidden.
Now, as to the Engineers… in TIer 3 their healing is definitely way too good, and I say that as someone who spends most of my game running away from trouble into the sweet embrace of the Invincibility Blanket. The simple fact that not having an Engineer in T3 is not an option hints at there being some serious issues there, and I would like to see this addressed. My opinion is that Healing needs to be a lot weaker than it is now, but I would also like to see Tier 3 ships all round either made weaker, or their DPS increased, to bring them more into line with T2’s damage ratios. This would also help in avoiding matches turning into a dull camp-fest where two balls of Frigates sit 9km away from each other and send 3-second sorties of Interceptors at one another.