Compare and contrast

So, I’ve decided to leave SC for the foreseeable future. It was fun whilst it lasted, but I’ve had enough, frankly.

 

I just bought a new game (which, for fairness, I shan’t name). It’s an RTS, but I think the comparisons are interesting. There’s nothing wrong with the concept of SC, as a space shooter; it’s the execution that’s wrong.

 

This RTS shipped for £29.99. Everything was unlocked when you bought it. You could literally jump into multiplayer and be competitive (in theory). There is no one who’d paid £80 for a gold ship and would be able to pound you, in your new-to-tier ship, endlessly. Nor is there any unfair advantages to be had by paying monthly.

 

The devs are often on the forums discussing the reasoning behind balance changes (it’s historical). People still QQ about their favourite things being nerfed, but usually there’s a fair reason.

 

The devs _apologised for _and _explained _ninja changes in a couple of recent patches.

 

There was a lot of complaining about the single player campaign; the devs are looking at changing it - based on their past record, I believe they will fix it and it will be brilliant.

 

We get patches often, even sometimes at weekends.

 

The game is not ‘beta’ but is instead released and being fixed as we go along.

 

There is a thriving online community.

 

No one has said ‘bacon’ once in chat.

 

 

 

 

I’m not saying this RTS is perfect - it needs some work - but the attitude of the devs is on another level to that of SC. They converse, they discuss, they invite suggestions. There is no micro-transaction BS to ruin what would otherwise be a great game. The list goes on.

 

 

Goodbye SC; it’s been fun.

 

 

 

(As an addendum, I tried to log on to SC for a quick blast; the server wouldn’t let me play. Some of my ships had been changed. It still cost a month’s rent to buy new kit for my t3 ships. Some moron said ‘bacon’ in chat. My ignore list is still full of racists, homophobes and idiot arvinaphiles. I might come back for the release. I probably won’t)

I may very well just follow. Name of game, please? PM me?

PM’d :slight_smile:

PM’d :slight_smile:

 

I’m not planning on leaving SC but I would like to check that game, so if you can tell me the name I would appreciate it too.

Since most of your points have been discussed at length in many other threads, I’ll tackle one point I have yet to talk about: business model.

 

Your unnamed game has an upfront cost which explains its features being unlocked. Star Conflict, in comparison, is free to play. Their source of revenue is not from game sales, but rather sales of DLC and various microtransactions.

 

As for the fairness of things that can be bought with real money, well, I argue that the game isn’t pay-to-win. It is, as a friend of mine is fond of saying, “pay-to-grind-less.”

As for the fairness of things that can be bought with real money, well, I argue that the game isn’t pay-to-win. It is, as a friend of mine is fond of saying, “pay-to-grind-less.”

Which is paying to win against people not paying lol. You bought it now, shoot people with it now, kill people with it now, increase your profile stats with it now, get medals with it now.  While he or she waits to shoot you with it later, kill you with it later etc etc etc.

 

 You can argue till you are blue in the face, but buying gear is pay to win.  It’s like the ultimate definition of it.

I don’t disagree with the way they pitch the pay-not-to-grind model per se. It’s just that the grind is simply too much. I want a game to be enjoyable; rewards are part of that. This isn’t a cerebral game where winning is its own reward (like an RTS). Playing for three hours and getting a single t3 module is… well, a waste of time. The reward isn’t there.

And the problem is, paying for a licence doesn’t stop. You buy in and have to keep buying in. It costs more than £30 of the RTS and you still haven’t got the same value for money.

I guess I don’t want a game to be like a job (which is why I quit playing WOW).

It becomes a job only when you think of it as a job.

I don’t disagree with the way they pitch the pay-not-to-grind model per se. It’s just that the grind is simply too much. I want a game to be enjoyable; rewards are part of that. This isn’t a cerebral game where winning is its own reward (like an RTS). Playing for three hours and getting a single t3 module is… well, a waste of time. The reward isn’t there.

And the problem is, paying for a licence doesn’t stop. You buy in and have to keep buying in. It costs more than £30 of the RTS and you still haven’t got the same value for money.

I guess I don’t want a game to be like a job (which is why I quit playing WOW).

Hint: Don’t start playing EVE online.

But i agree, the progress in this game is too slow, when I began it used to be like:

4k loyalty+

4k reputation+

PER MATCH

the 4k loyalty is possible again, but only once in an hour…

and the reputation got nerfed into xxxx and now i barely get 1500 per match and I’m flying a R9 ships with R9/8/9 with factions. In T2 i am lucky to get 500!

 

Maybe the progress was a little too fast in the past, but right now it’s so goddamn slow it stops being fun. Since 8.0 I have not leveled a SINGLE reputation level! loyalty is slowly increasing, but quite slowly…but I guess in comparison to 7.10 it’s goddamn fast…But in comparison to 7.8 it’s goddamn slow.

The “oldies” have had massive advantages over us, because they played when the game progress was fast, and things were supposedly cheaper I’ve heard(Though don’t remember where I read that or if it’s true, talking about gold).

Not to mention the increased ship prices are a blow to the progression speed as well, it used to be about 2-2.5m for a T3 ship IIRC, now it’s 3.5m…I don’t even want to look at T4…

 

And the patches haven’t really been increased the fun either, they change a lot of things without telling us, with barely any communication from the devs side(Given they are russians, so I can understand it to be slightly difficult…But these days…Who can’t speak/write English? :S) and many nerfs or changes they do are badly implemented and seems like it was never tested internally.(Your beta excuse is bullshit and you know it, that is why i say 7.10 instead of 0.7.10)

Regarding game progression, might I recommend using [this subforum](< base_url >/index.php?/forum/242-levelling-and-economy/) for further discussion?

Even with a license, I definitely feel the weight of the grind. Luckily I play more for the people and to improve my skills than I am trying to earn money or gain reputation. I try not to pay attention to my experience bars and income tab. This way, I am happily surprised when I rank up or earn enough for that shiny T4.

I earn around £76 a day, working 250 days a year. If I want to buy a brand new Mercedes, top of the range, that’s, what, £35k. Or a 500 day grind (give or take). Less tax, so maybe 700 days.

To earn a decent t3, with blues, costs upwards of 15000000 credits and takes, maybe 700 games?

It’s a job.

I play games to escape from the daily grind. Either as a Cold War general, or a zombie apocalypse survivor, or a space mercenary. I don’t play to save up and buy a virtual Mercedes only to find someone else has got one, is more skilled with it and has better kit because they payed to get there. Or worse, I FINALLY get my t3 inty and they nerf the game so inty’s are completely different to what they were. And I’m not as good at it as I was.

So I swapped to engineer frigate. They nerfed that. I was playing gunship fighter, but who knows the state that’s in!

If its beta testing, the grind should be less so we can give everything a try. Not take 3 weeks to get there, only to find ‘there’ isn’t where it was!

I like the game, I really do. I enjoy killed LRFs with an inty; I like warp gating in to a beacon hunt and causing chaos; I like that people struggle to think in 3d so I can come zooming up from under them. But I think the business model is ALL wrong.

I think the game could be much better if it had a flat 30-50 euro(or whatever) cost and you buy, and be done with it. Everything is unlocked, and everyone have equal chance to win, and the thing that matters is skill. Then maybe after a year put out some dlc/expansion or whatever to get additional income. The game would also require to have some trial mode where you can try the game with very limited options(or time) for free. Unfortunatelly that is not gona happen to this game, as it is build specifically for “micro” transaction and progression in mind.  :sad:

To earn a decent t3, with blues, costs upwards of 15000000 credits and takes, maybe 700 games?

It’s a job.

I play games to escape from the daily grind. Either as a Cold War general, or a zombie apocalypse survivor, or a space mercenary. I don’t play to save up and buy a virtual Mercedes only to find someone else has got one, is more skilled with it and has better kit because they payed to get there. Or worse, I FINALLY get my t3 inty and they nerf the game so inty’s are completely different to what they were. And I’m not as good at it as I was.

So I swapped to engineer frigate. They nerfed that. I was playing gunship fighter, but who knows the state that’s in!

If its beta testing, the grind should be less so we can give everything a try. Not take 3 weeks to get there, only to find ‘there’ isn’t where it was!

I like the game, I really do. I enjoy killed LRFs with an inty; I like warp gating in to a beacon hunt and causing chaos; I like that people struggle to think in 3d so I can come zooming up from under them. But I think the business model is ALL wrong.

Gunships are fine, bro. In fact, Empire Gunships have so much hp, they can safely tackle Guards and kill them before their armor is halfway down; then safely escape to a nearby Engie so you can do another run. If you know how to fly it, you’re nigh-untouchable and earn a LOT of Maniac medals and that’s not by killing Ceptors.

 

 

A lot of people will relate and actually agree with the OP. Including me, tbh. This game is not on beta. At all. And now, I give my rant:

 

1)  Contracts.

Were this game in beta, things would be EASY to level up, like they were before, not take a month to get from Rank 6 to Rank 9 in a single Corp, whilst your faction Rank goes from the same Rank to near 11 with just levelling that single Corp. Wanna get to Rank 12? Well, better prepare for a LOOOOOOOON grind.

Contracts do help in that regard, but the cooldown timers are exceedingly long. I mean, seriously… 16/18 hours to kill FIVE ships? Something you actually accomplish in the following match, whether you win or not, because it accounts for kill assists, as well? You can just sit comfortably in an Engineer or Command Ship, giving buffs that those Contracts will be completed, anyway. Their rewards is another thing, as well. They are too low. Taking those 16/18 hour Contracts is almost worthless, you can grind twice or thrice as much during their cooldown, so I just keep asking myself: “What’s the point in taking these, anyway…”. The only one that’s worth taking is the very first one (the “Win a mtch” Contract). That single one Contract is worth doing constantly because it has no cooldown and its 900 rep reward is actually worth it. For the rest… The 1 hour ones are fine, but 1k rep? Come on, devs…

My point with the Contracts is that they’re unbalanced. Badly! You have, basically, free 900 rep Conracts and 18 hour cd contracts that are only worth three times as much as the non-cd ones. They are literally not worth the time you spend on them.

 

 

  1. P2W

 

Note: I currently do not remember all the ships’ bonuses, seeing as I’m at work, meaning I’m writing this piece with whatever I can remember. If you’re willing to help me by posting the ship bonuses so I can make a less biased opinion on this, please do.

 

Is it P2W? Isn’t it? I’ve been fighting tooth and nail that it actually IS, but recent events (since 8.2) have proven me to be just a little bit wrong. I’ve recently talked to a handful of pilots who have purchased the Elite DLC Pack on steam. They were oblivious as to how to fit their T3 ships, so I ended up lending them a hand. Their sole reason to buying the Elite Pack was “it’s too much of a grind”. And this is where I said to myself “Yep, still P2W.” However, is SC really like that?.. In short: Yes. And no.

 

SC is still P2W because the way the ship tree is made is to promote GS purchases. For example, T3 Fighters.

As you all know, Imperial Fighters rule the territory of Gunships. To prove that point, you have two Command Ships and 3 Gunships on that tier. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Couldn’t be any more wrong. Because two of those gunships are purchased with Galactic Standards (Nukem I) and via the Elite Pack DLC (Desert Eagle). Both of which rule the entire T3 Gunship territory. Not even the Federation Wolf-M can keep up with them, its single selling point being its speed and manoeuvrability. Not really a big selling point, if you ask me (personal opinion on the Wolf-M, I have it, flown it and have found the Nukem I to be far more reliable in the Gunship role), making the Nukem I and the D-Eagle the only viable Gunships in T3.

Moving on to Federation, their expertise is Tacklers. Federation has 2 Tacklers and 2 Gunships in T3. There is also a single, lone Tackler in Jericho. Again, no high ranked Tacklers except the Parallax, other than the Fed Rank 7 Tackler. The Jericho Tackler is Rank 8. So, once again, promoting GS expenditures for a good Tackler, the Parallax.

Jericho both escapes and is trapped in this rule in the Fighter department. Their expertise is in Command Ships.To this end, they have 1 Tackler and FOUR Command Ships. Not 1 or 2, but FOUR. Katana, Katana-S, Strong (GS) and the Dragonfly (DLC). Here, they are incredibly well-balanced because the Strong is a missile boat, not really suited for a Command role. The Katana is a Rank 7 ship, making it the entry point into T3 Jericho Fighters and the Katana-S the actual Command Ship. Wrong again. The Katana-S has an “invisible” bonus to speed (afterburner speed, more specifically), but no actual Command bonuses. The Dragonfly, albeit having far less missile slots than the Strong, has both a Command bonus and a missile bonus. So, once again, promoting DLC purchase.

These imbalances and disparities continue throughout the Interceptor and Frigate roles but I won’t expand on those just yet (5 Frigates in Jericho T3… *snicker*)

 

However… It’s not a P2W because the only thing those players are getting is marginally better ships and yellow gear (on-par with MkIII gear), things you can get yourself by playing the game and grinding for about a year (if you’re like me and only play 2-3 hours per day, tops). The only things you can’t get if you truly play for free is… well, you don’t get a good game experience. Repair bills on an unlucky match can be staggering and you may find yourself very limited in what you can fly effectively without letting yourself be compromised by the lack of slots or implants.

 

 

3)  Matchmaking

 

Huh… This is, imho, the most ridiculous one. One might argue that seeing Rank 4 ships in T1 or Rank 7 ships in T2 matches doesn’t really matter to them. Well… You’re half right. Because, unless you’re flying a Covert Ops, there really isn’t much of a difference. Other than Nukes, that is (which I’m not sure you can actually use in T2, though I have seen them equipped). However, there is a large disparity between T3 gear and T2 gear. Namely in some of the modules. Modules that are not available in T2 and are freely used here, making a Rank7 ship, in the hands of a capable pilot, a very large threat. Same in T1 matches. One might argue a Rank 4 ship is seldom useful, but that’s in T2 matches. Their real use is in T1 matches, where the weapon modules and the extra stats help them more than the best pilots in equivalent T1 ships (I’m comparing Rank 7 ships with their best T1 equivalent).

The matchmaking system is broken that way and highly abused by every godamn pilot out there so they can bring T3 modules into T2 gameplay, thus breaking it. However, and far worse to me, is that the way the system is made, Rank 3/6 ships SHOULD be bumped into T2/T3 matches because they’re equipped, something that never happens.

Due to this, there is no balance in the matchmaking system and people have just been abusing the hell out of it since it’s been implemented.

 

I’ve recently also had the pleasure of fighting Rank NINE ships in T2 matches. That’s not even Rank 6, pilots are now flying fully fitted high-rank T3 vessels in T2 matches. Well done, devs.

 

 

4)  Module availability

 

Oh, yes, I’m not done. Module disparity is another big no-no. In example: Engineer Frigates, Gunship Fighters and Covert Ops Interceptors.

 

Engie Frigs. Everyone knows they can have a… well, an exceedingly excellent tank is used correctly. Moreso than a Guard Frigate, the game’s so called “tank” ship, according to the devs’ ideas of them. However, their gear isn’t exactly fair in use. Iirc, their T1 gear is exclusive to armor boosts, only seeing it expanded to shields in T2. This is unfair to them if they want to pick shields as their main tank and find themselves restricted to armor only. Fed and Empire ships become bff’s and Engies give Jericho ships the finger in T1.

 

Gunship module availability is well spread throughout the tiers. 1 module in T1, 3 in T2, 4 in T3 (iirc). It’s balanced, well-equipped in all tiers and effective at its job. As all ships should be. However, that’s not the case in SC and the gunship stands at the middle of the technological see-saw.

 

CovOps. This is, by far, the most unfair and overpowered ship in the game. I’ll leave it’s “op-ness” to another point and talk about its absolutely ridiculous module disparity here. You get one module in T1 CovOps. Nothing wrong so far, correct? Right. It’s balanced and can still manage to kill other ships and complete objectives quite effectively. In T2, however, things get worse. Where every other ship gets 3 modules to choose from, the CovOps gets 5 (or 4, I don’t remember if Self-Destruct is available in T2). Meaning you have more modules than slots to fit your ship with. But not only that, you now have a ship that’s capable of not just killing Frigates, but slaughtering them (you may disagree, you may say that all you need to do is just manoeuvre away from the Plasma Arc, but they’re faster than your Frigate. If they have half a brain while sitting behind that ship, they will kill you then fly away, pointing at your wreck going “hah hah!”. In T3 they gain another TWO modules, including Nukes. You might also argue that the nuke is hardly a module and to you I say “yes. continue ignoring the facts.” The Nuke is an exclusive CovOps missile, making it a CovOps “module”, so to speak.

 

 

5)  Ship disparity

 

I’m tired of writing , so I’ll keep this one short. You have 3 Frigates in Jericho T2 and five Frigates in Jericho T3. Same for the Premium Jericho Frigate. Why is it a Sniper when the other 3 are Guards? Why is that one a Sniper where all 4 Imperial ones are Snipers and all 4 Federate Premium Frigates are Engineers? (if I’m not screwing my perception that much; again, I’m at work, so I can’t remember every in-game detail, atm).

The disparity doesn’t end here, however. The P2W section up top might show a lot more disparities that I won’t repeat here.

Another disparity is the recent updates. This has spawned incredibly unfair tactics throughout the game, especially in T3. Frigate balls are a real problem and you can’t get past them with their natural counter, the Ceptor balls, when a single Guard can take them all out when backed up by an Engineer. Now let me stress the fact that the problem ARE NOT the Guards, nor the Interceptors. It’s the Engineers. You nerfed them directly, but gave them an indirect buff people are abusing. We don’t need the engie nerf, we need an engie tweak. Percentages instead of raw values. This, however, will spawn a different problem, which is hp stacking instead of resist stack. So these changes need to be thoroughly thought out and balanced before making them come true.

 

 

End of rant. Good lord, that took me a couple hours to write. Thank you, devs, for the wasted office time. =P

 

Now… I’d just like to end this post by saying that I’m not criticizing the game itself. No, I love the game and if I catch the steam DLCs in a 50% discount, I will buy one. However, since 8.0, things have been VERY messy.

And all I, personally, am asking for is for the devs to THINK before doing. You claim this game is on beta? Fine, make changes accordingly. Make the game a real beta and not a finished product that you “tweak” into balance. These last changes aren’t tweaks to the gameplay, they are game breakers and, whenever something is done to change this broken play, it’s fixed, it really is, but you fix one thing and break 2 more. This is not how you do things, this is not how you work. In my job, technical maintenance at a media station, we have to FIX things and they have to be spotless by the time we’re done fixing it. We strive to have things perfected, even if it takes a day or a week longer but they end up pristine and ready to be broken again at the hands of witless reporters. Your job, as game developers, is to provide the same exact service, albeit with different means. Please don’t ruin a good game.

Good rant. Hopefully one day you get something different to vent about that another 100 people aren’t already.

Good rant. Hopefully one day you get something different to vent about that another 100 people aren’t already.

Good, huh… good contribution there, sherlock.

Gets my vote.

Oryngton

the devs are russian I believe, how dare you think that they can make proper and righteous choices while drunk all the time?!

 

-Just using internet funziez here, no offense intended

 

Really tho, some changes are good ideas, but the implementation is just so horrible…

Today, I had the pleasure of witnessing the majestic matchmaking system at work again.

 

It wasn’t enough to have Rank 7 ships in T2 matches. No, god forbid that was just too easy. Instead, we got to see the magnificence of RANK 9 SHIPS. That’s right, Rank NINE ships in T2 matches. Well done again, devs.

 

citizen-kane-clapping.gif

Today, I had the pleasure of witnessing the majestic matchmaking system at work again.

 

It wasn’t enough to have Rank 7 ships in T2 matches. No, god forbid that was just too easy. Instead, we got to see the magnificence of RANK 9 SHIPS. That’s right, Rank NINE ships in T2 matches. Well done again, devs.

 

citizen-kane-clapping.gif

 

Fixed.

Fixed.

thanks, i had that image somewhere, but couldn’t find it.