34 minutes ago, Swifter43021 said:
But for ships such as Command or Covert ops, or any classes with a self bonus damage, they would loose too much by using damage build.
And I said all of that back when “10% dmg bonus is always better than 10% crit chance (ship crafting bonus)” argument appeared
Well that doesn’t change the fact that 10% weapon damage > 10% crit chance. The formula is the same. The only difference is about orion/valkyrie and stuff
7 minutes ago, Swifter43021 said:
Well that doesn’t change the fact that 10% weapon damage > 10% crit chance. The formula is the same. The only difference is about orion/valkyrie and stuff
point is that it is not “always” better and there are enough cases where you will want crit chance over dmg bonus
Beside Quantum railgun (cooldown reduction), and maybe gauss/positron (for consistency), why would you go with crit chance over weapon damage ?
You need 200% crit damage for 10% crit chance to be as efficient as 10% weapon damage.
[@Swifter43021](< base_url >/index.php?/profile/244300-swifter43021/) Because the crit chance and damage buffs usually provide 10, 12%+, while the damage buffs usually apply 7%. All depending on what your base crit/critdmg values are, one may provide more damage than the other. Although for damage to be better, it requires extremely low crit values in most cases. Crits are also more random, sometimes more, sometimes less DPS, and pure damage is consistent.
100% crit damage for 10% crit chance, but only if base crit chance is zero, otherwise it works out a bit different. It’s actually simple, but I’m too lazy to write a formula now.
15 minutes ago, betatrash said:
[@Swifter43021](< base_url >/index.php?/profile/244300-swifter43021/) Because the crit chance and damage buffs usually provide 10, 12%+, while the damage buffs usually apply 7%. All depending on what your base crit/critdmg values are, one may provide more damage than the other.
What are you talking about ? We are speaking about those special ships that let you pick between 10% weapon damage and 10% crit chance as a passive bonus.
And on all situations with <= 190 crit damage, 10% weapon damage gives more DPS then 10% crit chance.
There’s a slight difference when using Orion/Valkyrie, where with a big enough crit damages + using the buff damage, 10% crit chance is better. But there are no real case in SC where such thing is true : The only ship that can fall into such situation is Dart.
And you’d need to reach 120% crit damage to have more DPS using 10% crit then 10% weapon damage. But it’s not worth using crit damage instead of crit chance CPU, especially on Dart.
[@Swifter43021](< base_url >/index.php?/profile/244300-swifter43021/) Oh sorry, I was talking about mods/ammo/implants, but the same idea applies. If you can raise crit_dmg*crit_chance above 100%, then 10% crit_chance is better than 10% damage. ie: 50% chance 200% damage, or 66.6% chance 150% damage, or 100% chance 100% damage. Although those are hard to achieve (impossible with implants alone), so in most cases, the 10% damage bonus would be superior, except in cases where ships can raise their crit stats via modules/ammo.
Although, I don’t exactly know what applies to base (additive), and what is multiplicative, but most seem to be additive.
10 hours ago, betatrash said:
Let D = damage percent increase, E = crit damage percent increase, C = crit chance, B = crit damage
If CB < 100%, then (1+D)(1+CB) > (1+C+E)B
I even misread all your previous comments then since I was comparing damage bonus to crit chance bonus.
Which now begs the question if that formula is even correct, since I assumed 100% crit damage. No idea, took like 1-2 mins and I don’t feel like revisiting the problem. ;o
Uh yea, it contains a pretty massive error, oh well, maybe later, but the premise that CB < 100% is true.
10 hours ago, Swifter43021 said:
That’s not even true.
Because 10% weapon damage increases the critical damages too.
Example : 100% crit, 50% crit damage, 500 base damage.
Base dps : 500 * 1,5 = 750
With 10% weapon damage : 550 * 1,5 = 825
With 10% Crit damage : 500*1,6 = 800
10% weapon damage > 10% Crit damage
I was saying crit chance, not crit damage.
4 minutes ago, betatrash said:
[@Swifter43021](< base_url >/index.php?/profile/244300-swifter43021/) Oh sorry, I was talking about mods/ammo/implants, but the same idea applies. If you can raise crit_dmg*crit_chance above 100%, then 10% crit_chance is better than 10% damage. ie: 50% chance 200% damage, or 66.6% chance 150% damage, or 100% chance 100% damage. Although those are hard to achieve, so in most cases, the 10% damage bonus would be superior, except in cases where ships can raise their crit stats via modules.
Although, I don’t exactly know what applies to base (additive), and what is multiplicative, but most seem to be additive.
Nope that’s wrong.
Example with absurd values :
1000 base damage.
90% crit chance
190% crit damage
base DPS : 1000 * (1 + 0.9*1.9) = 2710
10% weapon damage : 1100 * (1 + 0.9*1.9) = 2981
10% crit chance : 1000 * (1 + 1*1.9) = 2900
10% weapon damage > 10% crit chance
Its not about when crit chance becomes effective its about when +dmg becomes not effective.
1 minute ago, xKostyan said:
Its not about when crit chance becomes effective its about when +dmg becomes not effective.
Do you have a real case scenario ?
44 minutes ago, Swifter43021 said:
Do you have a real case scenario ?
Some builds on Sirius, SawOne - from top of my head, that will be based on a final build you aim for (weapon, ammo, implants, booster, special module, presence of a friendly command buffs (like in Sec Con/ Leagues where you could more or less rely on your team mates), capacitor mods)
Don’t have numbers, since I am at work, and unlike Milf, I cant play at work 
[@Skula1975](< base_url >/index.php?/profile/239039-skula1975/) You know what I can see as a hurdle to implementation now, since this discussion of modules?
It would be harder to calculate crit DPS for all module effects, since you’d be lacking a base DPS value to work with, you’d have to mult/divide RPM*DPR/60, to get base DPS.
The only solution would be to provide both DPS values, with crits included as a large number to replace the current one, and a smaller number below it, or as the first additional stat, with the base DPS, from which to calculate all modules. Or even a min-max DPS stat, using crit damage value.
But for most ships, crit DPS stat matters more, since they don’t possess such modules.
Or, push some button to aggregate and show all module effects combined, like pushing ALT or SHIFT to get info or compare. Then, you wouldn’t have to calculate anything manually.
1 hour ago, Swifter43021 said:
Do you have a real case scenario ?
Almost any EM weapon or critd build kinetic.
Just now, OmegaFighter said:
Almost any EM weapon or critd build kinetic.
Do you mind proving it by A + B? I’m a bit skeptical.
1 minute ago, Swifter43021 said:
Do you mind proving it by A + B? I’m a bit skeptical.
Well, most EM weapons come with higher critical damage. Why would I go for 10% mwp over 10% critcal chance when my crit damage is like 120%
It just pays off more on average, also that there are many more things that can boost your actual damage rather than your criticals. When I build a ship having the choice between crit chance and crit damage, I will on alpha damage mostly chose the critical damage (Gauss & Positron), on high critical damage the chance and otherwise the raw damage. It’s been working for me pretty good. I guess if your critical damage is 103%, do whatever. And I say this out of experience, not math.
7 minutes ago, OmegaFighter said:
Well, most EM weapons come with higher critical damage. Why would I go for 10% mwp over 10% critcal chance when my crit damage is like 120%
It just pays off more on average, also that there are many more things that can boost your actual damage rather than your criticals. When I build a ship having the choice between crit chance and crit damage, I will on alpha damage mostly chose the critical damage (Gauss & Positron), on high critical damage the chance and otherwise the raw damage. It’s been working for me pretty good. I guess if your critical damage is 103%, do whatever. And I say this out of experience, not math.
We are talking about scenarios where you have to chose +crit chance or +weapon dmg
this comes in forms of passive bonus on craft ships or CPU on Ellydium ship, i guess you could include kinetic Ammo into this, since thermal choice is more than just dmg output due to the range modifier.
Outside of these, you aren’t forced to make a choice between +dmg or +crit chance since they come from different sources and can coexist.
Exactly.
And there’s quite a limited number of ship affected. Which is reduced even further due to their role or special item (like Dart quantum railguns).
Because there’s only a very limited number of ship where crit damage could be superior to weapon damage.
It’s more effective on Dart due to Quantum railguns, and the r11 damage buff. But I don’t see other examples that comes into my mind.
Taking crit over damage would only be reducing the overhaul dps a bit, for more consistency.
But I may be wrong. So I’m curious.