Biggest Problem with Plasma Weapons

Game Discussion Balance
1

Weapons & Relevant Weapon Modifiers

Lets see the weapon modifiers first:

 

Kinetic weapons - Thermal modifier

Thermal weapons - EM modifier

EM weapons - Kinetic modifier

 

Ship Resistances

Then lets take a look at the general/default resistances of any ship:

 

Hull

Low Kinetic Resistance

High EM Resistance

(best weapons: Basic Kinetic & Modded Plasma)

 

Shield

High Kinetic Resistance 

Low EM Resistance

(best weapons: Basic Plasma & Modded Thermal)

 

Result

In theory, best weapon to use? Plasma.

Because it deals EM damage, which allows you to deal maximum damage to enemy shields.

Then you can enable a mod and convert your damage to Kinetic, and maximize your hull damage with it.

It grants you unparalleled “freedom” on the fly.

 

See the pattern here? Plasma weapons, with the use of their weapon modifiers, are able to inflict maximum damage to an enemy ship both on shields and on hull. Combine this with high DPS output of Plasma weapons, and there you go… But my point is NOT the DPS output of them, my point & problem is Plasma weapons having a modifier that allows them to inflict maximum damage all the time.

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This however make senses realistically. 

 

 The issue is not that it does the best damage to the various types, the issue is that the resistance on the ships purse are broken.

some ships can tank 80% DR to Kinetic on hull, there for  using kinetic there is not the cause

 

the only role these weapon changes play is diversifying the weapon damage type on the battle field.

 

for example lets say you have EM/Kin and i  have Em/Thrm

 

you kill the shields on a target, but neither your em/kin can hurt this player (you are trying to kill)

i however have thermal and he is weak to it. as a result, the game has been balanced as a group effort rather then a player effort

 

if you balance the game so that all weapons have a specific combination difference (for example, making plasma em/thm) you kill uniqueness, and over power kinetic tanking

 

if you give all weapons all three types, you might as well delete all of them and just have one type, in short this break tanking

3

You aren’t getting what I’m saying. I’m talking about default stuff. Yes you can add more resistances to hull or shield, that’s not my point.

 

Hulls are weak to kinetic. Shields are weak to EM. All this is without any upgrades; people may add modules to turn the tables.

 

One weapon is capable of destroying default resistances. Plasma weapons deal EM damage; good against shields, and a modifier allows them to deal Kinetic damage; good against hulls. No other weapon type, Railguns/Lasers can do this. And this is something that needs to be addressed in my opinion.

4

the higher damage rates are fine, because the weapon is close to mid range. they need an edge to be balanced. plasma is the most balance weapon type in game.

5

You kidding me right? Most balanced weapon in the game, capable of switching from EM damage to Kinetic in order to inflict maximum amount of damage to ships with default resists?

 

Yeah, very balanced indeed.

6

Yep, they are the most balanced.

 

 

You think that thermal ken and em should do the same damage to all HP types?

you dont have an idea what balance is, if you think that.

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the balance thing by Uhmari was about the general weapon behaviour…all plasma weapons deal enough damage to take out any kind of enemy…if you take the longrange laser for example you will have a hard time since the dmg/sec/volley is not this big to inflict serious damage at all

 

however having a weapon which can inflict both optimized damage kinds (EM, KIN) can been seen as a little bit unbalanced…what would be your idea?

plasma with thermal and em damage, lasers with kin and thermal damage and railguns with kin and em damage?

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lasers are getting a good fix soon, fear not. when this happens i think lasers will be highly loved, and used.

rails are also looking at some changes, but they are more stat numbers, then mechanical.

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You think that thermal ken and em should do the same damage to all HP types?

you dont have an idea what balance is, if you think that.

 

I’m sorry but it seems your English is either rusty or not good. Because you don’t understand what I am saying at all.

 

Nowhere I said anything like that. What I’m saying, and what you are not getting is,  one weapon dealing maximum damage to both HULL and SHIELD with one weapon modifier. If you try to put something else into my mouth, or try to push topic in another direction again, I won’t bother replying; since it is like talking to a brick wall.

 

Oh, and I almost forgot, if you think that a weapon type which has a modification that allows you to swap between 2 damage types in order to inflict maximum damage to both hull and shield, apparently you are the one who has no idea about balance. 

 

however having a weapon which can inflict both optimized damage kinds (EM, KIN) can been seen as a little bit unbalanced…what would be your idea?

plasma with thermal and em damage, lasers with kin and thermal damage and railguns with kin and em damage?

Hmm, to be honest, I never thought about it. How about, instead of converting all damage to another type, just percentage of it? Here are some examples, with some sort of “justification”.

 

Railguns: Full damage conversion (think it as if you are using different ammunition; no changes, stays like it is now)

Lasers: Half damage conversion? (different laser lens to shift the laser beam towards the EM spectrum, while retaining the integrity of the beam itself; dealing 50% thermal and 50% EM damage)

Plasma: Quarter damage conversion?? (overcharging the plasma bolts in order to pack a punch, but losing the potential EM damage in the process; dealing 25% kinetic damage and 75% EM damage)

 

As always, numbers are just suggestion. Oh, I also suggest that, using weapon modifiers affect how the projectiles look; Lasers would look purple, Plasma would look yellow-white, railguns would look orange. How about that?

 

I mean, I cannot think of anything else; your suggestion/example will bring the same problem, this time railguns will be able to inflict maximum damage to both hull and shield.

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Problem with the plasma and damage changes at all is that the mods do not reduce the power of the weapon at all or having negative effects, no they also increase damage in nearly the same amount than a normal damage mod does.

 

I guess the original idea was to break throu a maxed tank build of one kind of resis. But as it is now you only go for max damage, and palsma offers it right now. So the meta is dominated by plasma. To “fix” this problem the resis of the ships should get changes and also damage changing mods need a change. They do now have a too great advantage about the other mods. Moreover they lack uniqeness. They do all the same right now: Add damage and deal a diffrent kind of damage.

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i agree mostly gentai, but i think that he basically wants all weapons to have alll damage types, or all resistance to be the same.

As i have stated in the past, there is way to counter-react things, and that is a means of balance

 

an example i gave of this way rogues stun-lock in WoW. Its op, and can kill a healer for example, But

mages ice block for example can stun lock the stunner. So we learn from this example, that as its taught

in conceptual design for games one op thing is no op until it breaks everything, and if one op mechanic

is countered by another equally prevalent mechanic, then its no op, its just op against somethings.

in that situation alternations are made, not full on changes.

 

So that leaves us here,

Alternations should be changed.

 

On idea may be to add more kinetic resistance on shields

and more em resistance on shielding.

 

on excellent idea i was looking at was active or passive modules

that reduce the damage of a specific type, but increase it to others.

this module would be for “hull” or “shield mod”

for example

 

reduce incoming damage from plasma weapons by 20% but increases damage

from other sources by 10%

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i agree mostly gentai, but i think that he basically wants all weapons to have alll damage types, or all resistance to be the same.

As I’ve said, you are not getting my point. As I’ve said, nowhere I wrote those things. Anyhow, back to the topic;

 

Problem with the plasma and damage changes at all is that the mods do not reduce the power of the weapon at all or having negative effects, no they also increase damage in nearly the same amount than a normal damage mod does.

 

I guess the original idea was to break throu a maxed tank build of one kind of resis. But as it is now you only go for max damage, and palsma offers it right now. So the meta is dominated by plasma. To “fix” this problem the resis of the ships should get changes and also damage changing mods need a change. They do now have a too great advantage about the other mods. Moreover they lack uniqeness. They do all the same right now: Add damage and deal a diffrent kind of damage.

 

Damage changing mods needs a rebalance, true. To be honest, I don’t think all weapon types should have damage conversions anyway. I understand it for Railguns; I think of it as using different ammunition. Can understand it to a degree for lasers too, but Plasma, I don’t know. Maybe just one or two of the weapon types should have damage conversion; it shouldn’t be a standart upgrade, it should be a special upgrade like the ones unlock at higher Tiers though.

 

On my example, I tried to stick to the “original” format. Here are more examples, following my previous ones;

 

Lasers:

“Magnifying” Lenses

A special lens, when over-heated, capable of shifting the laser beam towards the EM spectrum. The shift occurs at 50% heat, at which time 50% of the damage is converted to EM damage. However, due to fragile nature of these lenses, maximum allowed heat (time it takes to overheat) is reduced by 25% OR since these lenses are thinner than normal, heat is accumulated at 25% faster rate. 

 

Railguns:

“Flak” shells

Instead of using regular ammo, special flak ammo with proximity fuse is utilized. Proximity fuse has 5-15m detonation radius, and deals 90% of the damage in thermal. Spread is increased by 5-10%.

 

Plasma:

Energy Inhibitor

Direct hits to shield reduces target’s shield regeneration by 25%. Direct hits to hull reduces target’s energy regeneration by 25%. No damage conversion. 

 

etc… etc… As I’ve said, what we currently have feels standard. Not all of them has to be damage conversions.

13

im sorry, but bluntly put, this is a terrible idea.

you will only cause people to shift to using Thermal resistance, making beams predominately the strongest and most common weapon in game

this is totally against what we are working for with weapon balance.

 

not only that but everyone will tank thermal, making all weapons super ineffective.

this will break the mechanics, the damage % is fine, there is nothing wrong with the types.

14

i think this may help.

 

 

Resistance tank

 

High DR

Moderate HP

Low Regen

 

Regenerative tank

Low DR

High HP

High Regen

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Those are not ideas, or suggestions, just examples. Also, we are not talking about solutions for regeneration or resists over here. Please go post at the relevant topic. 

 

What I’m talking about, AND WHAT YOU STILL DON’T GET IS:  One weapon type dealing maximum damage to BOTH HULL AND SHIELDS with the help of a weapon modification

 

Till you understand the underlined text, don’t bother replying.

16

i wonder if we are playing the same game with comments like this.

 

 One weapon type dealing maximum damage to BOTH HULL AND SHIELDS with the help of a weapon modification

 

seriously?

 

 

The weapons do not do MAX Damage.

No weapons do “MAX DAMAGE”

 

The system is set up to have this bonus because it pretends over powered tanking on either EM or HULL.

As stated before. It is perfectly fine, the only problem in game right now in that a few ships need more tank stats (Res/Regen/hp)

and critical strike needs to be balanced.

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Yup, as I’ve said, you have no idea what I’m talking about. As I’ve stated several times here and there…

 

Please tell me, default resistances. Which damage type are shields weak to? And, which damage type is hull weak to?

 

That’s correct! FOR ANY SHIP, default shields are weak to EM, and default hull is weak to KINETIC.

What about plasma weapons? Deals EM damage, with a modifier, deals KINETIC damage

 

By maximum damage, if you cannot get what I’m trying to say, you are even worse in English than I first thought.

 

BRICK WALL IT IS LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! 

18

i think that you do not get the fact that it was designed this way intentionally.

and that if its not this way, you will break tanking in the game.

 

which i have said many times, but you are still on about it being op.

 

look, i am almost certainly tell you it wont be changed, so just hold your breath.

the resistances are fine, there is no problem with them.

and for plasma to have both em/kin is totally realistic, and it is totally fine

because they have the shortest range, which means that when flying toward an enemy

they have the least amount of time to kill someone (because they are taking damage before the enemy

is in their weapons range).

 

so everything is balanced.

 

Also (for the 5th time?)

just because shields are naturally weak to em does not mean you dont see 280 em resistance (Res cap; ie 80% DR)

i am a plasma user my self, and i have seen many times where my em damage is 20 or 50, and my kinetic is 500

on shielding!!!

 

so your position is totally obscene.

19

Hey does anyone know why i recently got so much icecream to share? Someone send me a huge package today and im gonna share it with you guys! ;)wt

 

 

Its true that plasma has the best outcome if it goes against basic stats, by simply having 1 mod. But ever imagined to protect hull with shield regen and kinteic resis? :what:

 

Lets use my tool and see what will happen. :yes_yes:

20

I say I rather open my cockpit window and throw a god dam brick at all of you in game, should be a one hit KO