Balance regarding Pirate DLC Ships

Game Discussion Balance
1

Hello, I made this poll to know what this community think about DLC Pirate Ships. 

 

I’m specially talking about Grim, Phoenix and Reaper. 

Everybody knows that hull > shield, and that they are somewhat decent ships. But are they worth it? The DLC packs are very nice, they give good bonuses, stickers and badass ships, but that badass ships are weak compared to their counterpacks:

 

Black Swarm > Grim : Black Swarm is faster and is way more energy stable. It has also better base stats, and the possibility to have even more speed thanks to Cheetah II, or more resistances thanks to Gigas II. The fact that Grim has 3 hull slots and +10 to all hull resistances don’t make him any tankier, becuase a single lock on with Gigas II will compensate that bonus. In the other hand, Black Swarm has an extra Shield slot, where you can put anything to make that ship even tankier. The additon to another CPU, or maybe Engine slot would make the ship worth the prize, it would remove his horrible energy regeneration, or give it more offensive tools (CPU), adding a Shield slot would be pay 2 win.

 

Screenshot comparing both ships:

Vl80VDP.png

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Styx > Phoenix : This case is pretty obvious and a little bit ridiculous. Everyone knows how strong the Styx is, it’s tankier than any other thing you have ever since from T3 and below. It has better heals than the Phoenix and better base stats. Also, the Styx is way mroe energy stable. In my opinion the Phoenix deserves some love, being rank 9 and the addition to a Capacitor slot would make it really worth the prize, it would still be weaker than the Styx in terms of tankiness and healings, but it would be a decent ship to invest your real money. Adding a Shield slot would be pay 2 win maybe.

 

Screenshot comparing both ships:

mfwN9ny.png

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Anaconda M > Reaper : This case is also pretty obvious. Anaconda M is overall a great ship. Very mobile, and with extra shield resistances, while the reaper is just too squishy to be worth using. You can count with the fingers of one hand the amount of players that can fly that ship and do a good game, but ofc, not as good as they would do with an Anaconda M. It has less shield, shield resistances, hull, and no CPU slots. Adding a CPU slot or a Shield slot would make the ship worth the money, it would still be less tanky than Ana M becuase it doesn’t have the +10 resistances to shield, and the addition of R9 implants would be a decent boost for his speed (Cheetah) or tankiness (Gigas)

 

Screenshot comparing both ships:

fC63u7w.png

 

I know that to begin with, Black Swarm, Styx and Anaconda don’t belong to the R9 because they’re secondary roles, but if they are going to stay like this, I find fair that real money ships are on par with them. I dislike pay 2 win, a lot, but I also dislike paying and being weaker. 

 

 

Please, leave your thoughts, be constructive and polite, I will appreciate any feedback I get.

 

Oh, and sorry for the long post.

2

Keep in mind all DLC/premium ships have a matchmaking bonus as they are all counted as mid-Tier so Rank9 is considered Rank8 in match making the same with Rank6 is Rank 5. Not sure about the mid-Tier DLC ships like Reaper if that is counted as Rank 8 or 7.

 

This gives you an advantage because the current matchmaking puts you up with Rank11 when you have a standard Rank 9 ship.

 

Phoenix and Reaper are Rank8 and nut sure if a comparison with Rank9’s makes sense

3

Keep in mind all DLC/premium ships have a matchmaking bonus as they are all counted as mid-Tier so Rank9 is considered Rank8 in match making the same with Rank6 is Rank 5. Not sure about the mid-Tier DLC ships like Reaper if that is counted as Rank 8 or 7.

 

This gives you an advantage because the current matchmaking puts you up with Rank11 when you have a standard Rank 9 ship.

 

Then remove the advantage of premium ships in lower matchmaking queues. I couldn’t care less of it, I just want worthy ships, I want to invest my money in something good. They look good, but anything else, the bonuses as I said are really nice, but the ships aren’t nice at all.

 

Phoenix and Reaper are Rank8 and nut sure if a comparison with Rank9’s makes sense

 

Of course it makes sense, I’m comparing them because they must be rank 9, unless you put Anaconda M, Styx and Black Swarm into rank 8, where they should be.

Am I wrong?

 

 

I want them to be equal, not worse, either nerfing the other ones or buffing this ones, the only good one is the Sai. And that ship is overpowered because there is no R8 or 9 Federation Recon.

If Bear, Desert Eagle and Dragonfly are rank 9, why Phoenix, Grim and Reaper are not? In fact, Desert Eagle and Bear are the only top rank available Tackler and Gunships of their race.

4

R9 ships are supposed to be better than R8 ships… having said that, who knows why the dev’s made them R8. Seems a bit odd since the other prems are R9

5

Please, leave your thoughts, be constructive and polite, I will appreciate any feedback I get.

With a few exceptions, cases like these prove that DLC ships are not P2W.  You cannot buy your way to victory.  Almost universally you’re better of with the credits ship.

6

You have to realise that these 3 pirate ships are rank 7 matchmaking wise, so go ahead and compare them to r7 and r8, pirates wipe the floor with free ones. So as long as you have these 3 pirate ships and 1xr7 like phobos, you are going to be matched vs much much weeker ships than you would have faced in styx/blackswarm/anacondam. It is not only the power of the ship you fly but power of your enemies.

Btw, add another line why they should not buffed, like “other” or becausevthey are rank 7 ships

7

You have to realise that these 3 pirate ships are rank 7 matchmaking wise, so go ahead and compare them to r7 and r8, pirates wipe the floor with free ones. So as long as you have these 3 pirate ships and 1xr7 like phobos, you are going to be matched vs much much weeker ships than you would have faced in styx/blackswarm/anacondam. It is not only the power of the ship you fly but power of your enemies.

Btw, add another line why they should not buffed, like “other” or becausevthey are rank 7 ships

 

This is wrong in so many levels… not your comment, but the system. Why have premium ships reduced matchmaking? I’m tired of seeing some SALT members in T1 premium squads crushing poor beginners to farm up their Win/Loss ratio and average Kills and Assists, and I think I will find the same in Tier 3!

As I said, I want the same matchmaking as everyone, but I want top rank badass pirate ships, with their 7 passive modules and 4 actives!

 

I don’t want to face weak enemies and crush them with my pirates, I want to face normal enemies in r9 ships with my r9 pirates, like Desert Eagle, Dragonfly or Bear.

8

I have added “Other” to the options. But please, if you select “Other” at least post here your opinion, thanks!

9

I think that the Grim is the best T3 ECM ship in the whole Tier.

Mine looks like this - and usually in T3 battles, I am able to pretty much kill anything with it. Even guards on my own.

 

http://prntscr.com/2xq87c

10

The Reaper and Phoenix cases are a little bit “Special” for me.

 

In fact, this 2 ships are not fitting in the Actual “Meta”…

When the Pirates DLC appeard, it was explained that “Pirate’s Ships Sacrifice Tanking hability for Dommages” 

 

 

“Pirate’s Ships Sacrifice Tanking hability for Dommages” 

(Yes, I autoQuoted myself)

 

This, is the most important thing to understand why the Reaper and the Phoenix are underpowered compared to their Credits Counterpart.

With Interceptors and Fighters, lowering the “Direct Tanking Hability” on the Hull and the Shield is not really impactant, due to the fact they still have a 3rd “Tanking Hability called Mobility”.

But if you do this on frigates, the impact will be much more important.

 

If you look the Ships Bonus, you will see that the “Dammage Bonus are super Expensive compared to what is sacrificed for them”.

Even if I like to fly my “Reaper”, this ship is just “MEH” compared to the Anaconda-M (or the Jericho’s ones). 

What a lot of players forgot too easily is that the “Reaper” have been more impacted by “Guard Nerf” than all the other guards.

In fact this ship had 2 “Godlike Moments”, the first one was before the Coil Mortar Nerf, and the Second during the Christmas Event with the KWP Snowstorm weapon.

 

Buffing the Reaper? Yes

How? Pirates love explosion and Ramming ! Give the same Weapons bonus as the Templar S(Kinetic Projectile speed/ Spread) to the Reaper and a Ramming Dammage bonus !

 

For the Phoenix it’s super Simple :

 

Less tanking hability + no capacitor + No R9 implant + Less mobility = Too expensive for 1 CPU and +6% crit/+20% Overheating.

This ship need at least : 1 Shield or 1 Capacitor Slot. Just for the Energy or Tanking hability.

The Capacitor will reduce the Energy problem of the Phoenix

or

The Shield will reduce the lack of tanking.

 

I could explain more about the Pirate’s Frigates but It will be Out of the Subject right now.

11

 

 

Although “dommages” is French and not English, I understood what you meant. That’s what I wanted, some love on the Reaper and the Phoenix, the ship idea is good, less tanky ships but more aggresive, but the tankiness lost is too much compared to the damage gained. I don’t think the Phoenix needs a shield slot, just a Capacitor for energy and the possibility of rank 9 implant. Same with the Reaper, add a CPU slot that wont boost the tankiness but make it rank 9 so you can either use gigas for that matter or cheetah to be faster.

 

Thanks for the long post Rakza.

12

The Reaper and Phoenix cases are a little bit “Special” for me.

 

In fact, this 2 ships are not fitting in the Actual “Meta”…

When the Pirates DLC appeard, it was explained that “Pirate’s Ships Sacrifice Tanking hability for Dommages” 

 

(Yes, I autoQuoted myself)

 

This, is the most important thing to understand why the Reaper and the Phoenix are underpowered compared to their Credits Counterpart.

With Interceptors and Fighters, lowering the “Direct Tanking Hability” on the Hull and the Shield is not really impactant, due to the fact they still have a 3rd “Tanking Hability called Mobility”.

But if you do this on frigates, the impact will be much more important.

 

If you look the Ships Bonus, you will see that the “Dammage Bonus are super Expensive compared to what is sacrificed for them”.

Even if I like to fly my “Reaper”, this ship is just “MEH” compared to the Anaconda-M (or the Jericho’s ones). 

What a lot of players forgot too easily is that the “Reaper” have been more impacted by “Guard Nerf” than all the other guards.

In fact this ship had 2 “Godlike Moments”, the first one was before the Coil Mortar Nerf, and the Second during the Christmas Event with the KWP Snowstorm weapon.

 

Buffing the Reaper? Yes

How? Pirates love explosion and Ramming ! Give the same Weapons bonus as the Templar S(Kinetic Projectile speed/ Spread) to the Reaper and a Ramming Dammage bonus !

 

For the Phoenix it’s super Simple :

 

Less tanking hability + no capacitor + No R9 implant + Less mobility = Too expensive for 1 CPU and +6% crit/+20% Overheating.

This ship need at least : 1 Shield or 1 Capacitor Slot. Just for the Energy or Tanking hability.

The Capacitor will reduce the Energy problem of the Phoenix

or

The Shield will reduce the lack of tanking.

 

I could explain more about the Pirate’s Frigates but It will be Out of the Subject right now.

 

Phenix, Grim and Reaper do not have their counterparts

I do not understand why people compare Phenix to Styx, Grim to Black Swarm and Reaper to Anaconda M

all of these are R7 vs R9 ships comparisons. Back in the days when there were no mixed tiers and all ships were locked within a tier, only back then it made sense to compare Pirate ships to Classic DLC to Premiums to R9 ships, because they were all in the same games for the most part.

Nova days it is a layers choice to bring pirate ships into R9 games.

With current matchmaking ( SOLO queue) entry level ships for the most part separated from end tier ships, as long as pilot keeps his hangar rank consistant, same goes for end tier ships, those mostly pushed up and either mixed with entry of a next tier or with mid-end of the same tier. Mid tier ships are kinda like a pile of crap in the river, they go places.

 

(T3)

So we have Pirates as R7 ships

Classic DLC and Prems are R8

They way cDLC and regular prems are is that MOST of the players still mix them with R9 ships (i.e styx/wolfM/BlackSwarm) and bring those into higher R9 games.

 If you have a line up of full R8 (Free+Prem or cDLC) you can go either way

You equip 3x Pirates +R7 (like Phobos) and suddenly you are fighting R6-r7 with mix of R5 and R8s for the most part. 

If you compare power of pirate ships in those tiers, there is absolutely NO need for a buff, even a slight nerf wouldn’t hurt.

 

 

What some people do want is to bring Pirate ships into R9 games, but if Pirate ships to be rebalanced to be compete in R9 games they MUST be pushed up in trees and be at least R8s, but by doing so T3 R8-R9s will be oversaturated with Premium ships

There are already so many premiums and Classic DLC ships there +Sai, it make sense to me to spread the love over the tier.

13

Phenix, Grim and Reaper do not have their counterparts

I do not understand why people compare Phenix to Styx, Grim to Black Swarm and Reaper to Anaconda M

all of these are R7 vs R9 ships comparisons. Back in the days when there were no mixed tiers and all ships were locked within a tier, only back then it made sense to compare Pirate ships to Classic DLC to Premiums to R9 ships, because they were all in the same games for the most part.

Nova days it is a layers choice to bring pirate ships into R9 games.

With current matchmaking ( SOLO queue) entry level ships for the most part separated from end tier ships, as long as pilot keeps his hangar rank consistant, same goes for end tier ships, those mostly pushed up and either mixed with entry of a next tier or with mid-end of the same tier. Mid tier ships are kinda like a pile of crap in the river, they go places.

 

(T3)

So we have Pirates as R7 ships

Classic DLC and Prems are R8

They way cDLC and regular prems are is that MOST of the players still mix them with R9 ships (i.e styx/wolfM/BlackSwarm) and bring those into higher R9 games.

 If you have a line up of full R8 (Free+Prem or cDLC) you can go either way

You equip 3x Pirates +R7 (like Phobos) and suddenly you are fighting R6-r7 with mix of R5 and R8s for the most part. 

If you compare power of pirate ships in those tiers, there is absolutely NO need for a buff, even a slight nerf wouldn’t hurt.

 

 

What some people do want is to bring Pirate ships into R9 games, but if Pirate ships to be rebalanced to be compete in R9 games they MUST be pushed up in trees and be at least R8s, but by doing so T3 R8-R9s will be oversaturated with Premium ships

There are already so many premiums and Classic DLC ships there +Sai, it make sense to me to spread the love over the tier.

 

he speaks the truth

14

No he doesn’t.

 

Matchmaking has been much improved lately. How do I know this? WPK and ESB use Styx in their T3 squads. Previously, that was unthinkable - to include a Styx would automatically put you in a Tier 4 match. Now it is perfectly normal to see masses of Blue / Purple Styx at full- or near-full synergy with nary a Tier 4 in sight.

 

Under the current model, ships are pushed up/down tier only when there is no other option, and only if they are on the edge of the tier. As such, matchmaking does not appear to allow R8 ships to be moved into T2/T4 matches under normal circumstances (though it can happen, seeing as I’ve earned Slayer of Immortals in a Rank 7 ship in standard play…). As such, it is now valid to compare T3 Premium / DLC with Rank 9 ships, since they are now being matched against one another as the norm.

 

As someone who uses the Phoenix as their main ship, I can attest that the ship is not a match for the Styx. In terms of tanking it can come so close as not to matter, but the problem lies in the utter lack of energy or shield modules. The double CPU means that it can theoretically pump out more DPS, but the Styx can use its energy slot to up its own fighting capability and still increase survivability via shield modules (one of which improves Hull…), not to mention the Gigas II.

15

No he doesn’t.

 

Matchmaking has been much improved lately. How do I know this? WPK and ESB use Styx in their T3 squads. Previously, that was unthinkable - to include a Styx would automatically put you in a Tier 4 match. Now it is perfectly normal to see masses of Blue / Purple Styx at full- or near-full synergy with nary a Tier 4 in sight.

and how often do you see players with full R7 and below line ups in your games? (unless those are not in a squad) as you said it is mostly R9s vs R8-R10 and Pirates are r7s if you do not equip anything else except pirates (and Sai is r8 so no Sai) most of the time you will either face r7-r8s or R9 braindead scrubs. As long as tiers are not 100% locked so R7 face R9s all the time (as it use to be loooong time ago) you can not compare R7 ships to R9s(matchmaking rating).

16

Phenix, Grim and Reaper do not have their counterparts

I do not understand why people compare Phenix to Styx, Grim to Black Swarm and Reaper to Anaconda M

 

As someone who uses the Phoenix as their main ship, I can attest that the ship is not a match for the Styx. In terms of tanking it can come so close as not to matter, but the problem lies in the utter lack of energy or shield modules. The double CPU means that it can theoretically pump out more DPS, but the Styx can use its energy slot to up its own fighting capability and still increase survivability via shield modules (one of which improves Hull…), not to mention the Gigas II.

 

hmm…

17

Phoenix is not a R7 ship for matchmaking. Phoenix is R8 for matchmaking. Even back in the Crap System I used lineups of purely R7 + Phoenix and/or Reaper and/or Grim and was matched as a R8 player. Plus I never saw a Phoenix in a T2 game when I was capping out my T2 ships. I saw Deagles and Dragonflies when using R4/5, but never any Phoenix. In fact, I didn’t see T3 Pirates until I started flying R6 and up.

I’ve been flying with pure R7 + Phoenix under the current system as well and I see a lot of Styx, R9 Guards and so on. In fact, I saw no difference to machmaking when I added R8, and then R9 ships to my roster, so the MM isn’t making a big distinction anymore. Pirates appear to have better MM priority than DLC and Premium ships.

18

Phoenix is not a R7 ship for matchmaking. Phoenix is R8 for matchmaking. Even back in the Crap System I used lineups of purely R7 + Phoenix and/or Reaper and/or Grim and was matched as a R8 player. Plus I never saw a Phoenix in a T2 game when I was capping out my T2 ships. I saw Deagles and Dragonflies when using R4/5, but never any Phoenix. In fact, I didn’t see T3 Pirates until I started flying R6 and up.

I’ve been flying with pure R7 + Phoenix under the current system as well and I see a lot of Styx, R9 Guards and so on. In fact, I saw no difference to machmaking when I added R8, and then R9 ships to my roster, so the MM isn’t making a big distinction anymore. Pirates appear to have better MM priority than DLC and Premium ships.

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Do we have enough population to “properly” separate and balance matches? No we don’t, but mechanics are there and lets not start about population here, everyone said enough about that already and it has nothing to do with balance of pirate ships.

And i believe there are still more checks out there affecting rating and some other “newer player” would have its queue reduced a bit further, or better say not increased like mine (for example pirate line up easily could be queue 29 and 27 for “extra specials”, while it is 31 for me)

19

In all of your screenshots, you are queued for a battle rank 7-9. It should be okay.

20

You appear to be in queue when the playerbase is down through the floor, which is probably screwing with your findings.