Balance Conflict

Game Discussion Balance
#1

Let’s be a bit harsh tonight, let’s talk about balance. I still don’t understand at all how devs balance stuff. 

 

I mean, siriusly : Tyrant can get a broken 4th passive (10% weapon damage is so powerful that the 2 other choices are useless) AND a powerful gun AND a broken shield modifier.

But then sirius get a totally useless 4th passive (Come on, the 100% reduction to cooldown time isn’t even 100% but 50%…), a copy paste of shared cooler (with only a few more percents) which do the opposite of what the 4th passive do, and that’s it. The only unique thing for sirius compared to other r14 destroyers is destabilizing field, which deal no damage to fed inties so what’s the point ?

What do we have to expect for empire ? A 4th bonus that give shield resist on a hull taking ship, or even more OP stuff ?

 

And that’s far from being the only aberration in SC. Some SP ships have the choice between 10% weapon damage and 10% crit chance. We don’t need to be a genius to know that the first one is always better.

Even with 200% crit damage bonus, the 10% weapon damage is still MORE damage then 10% crit chance because 10% weapon damage increase raw damage.

Don’t trust me ? I did an app about the REAL dps including crit damage (If you want it, I can share it). Let’s use insane crit values to prove my point :

1000 raw damage + 100 RoF + 90% crit chance + 200% crit damage

  • Base DPS = 4666

  • 10% crit chance bonus DPS = 5000

  • 10% damage bonus DPS = 5133

Numbers speaks by themselves. 

10% crit chance buff becomes equals to 10% damage buff only when you reach 1000% crit damage bonus, that’s totally insane.

 

Or we can speak about Brokk :

1200 healing per second… For BOTH hull AND shield, with a DPS of 2k. 

Eclipse launcher ? 1200 healing per second, but only for hull. And a DPS of 1k7. 

Or Brokk special that heal 6k shield per seconds in a huge area for a total of 18k heal, that also destroy objects, and drones still attack targets/heal yourself when not used. Compared to the standard special, that heal only 5k shield once in a smaller area.

 

Or Cyning legion special : Cast time reduced from 1s to 0.6 seconds, to get a cooldown increased from 45s to 60s ?

Is 0.4 second cast time really worth 15 second cooldown really ?

 

Or on the opposite, Mjolnir Guardian special : Cooldown increased from 40s to 45s, to get a bonus “Remove all negative effects”. I mean, 5 second cooldown is worth such a really strong effect ? Some debuff last longer then 5 seconds…

 

 

And tt’s the same for implants and modifiers.

I mean, all players here know that Resistance > Volume because healing are fixed values ; that Over-clocked processor is useless, but Infrared Scanner is a must have, or that you should never ever take something else then r3 +30 shield resist implant. 

 

You guys are doing small updates nearly every weeks. Why don’t you just change the values of over/underpowered stuff every weeks or two until things are more balanced ? 

It’s to the point where the “Reset all implants for 500 credit” is useless because half of the implants never change so it costs less then changing them manually.

It’s cool to have a lot of different options, but diversity works only when everything is useful. 

 

There’s no point in having many cool mechanics when everybody use only one thing.

#2

Some specials really do need some special rework…

#3

Tyrant isn’t even being made so early now, give the Devs time to see feedback once people start building them…other things are just personal opinion i suppose on your part…I agree though some modules need a rework, but please don’t suggest a Nerf to the Tyrant before we are even able to build it…I and others haven’t been on the grind for over a month just for it to get whined about while it’s practically non-existent in the game right now. That passive mod seems a bit OP but i’m pretty sure it will help greatly in keeping the giant target alive in a major fight, let the true tank have it’s status in the game please…the only thing i care about and have been waiting for months to get my hands on…

#4

17 minutes ago, Marcs25 said:

Tyrant isn’t even being made so early now, give the Devs time to see feedback once people start building them…other things are just personal opinion i suppose on your part…I agree though some modules need a rework, but please don’t suggest a Nerf to the Tyrant before we are even able to build it…I and others haven’t been on the grind for over a month just for it to get whined about while it’s practically non-existent in the game right now.

Nah I’m not asking for a nerf or anything. 

I’m just saying that stuffs aren’t equals. Some things are useless, some are a must have. I used the word “broken”, because these new items are so unique on their own that you MUST use them. Like the 12k shield regen when an enemy die within 2km. Compared to all the shield modifiers available, this is a must have. All tyrant need to equip this mod. 

While on Sirius, it’s the opposite, It have a unique motor modifier and active module, but nobody use them because they are useless. 

 

 

What I’m saying here is that recently they add a lot of content with complex mechanics. But nothing is balanced at all, and in the end, nobody use them !

You saw someone using the new Alien fighter beam and do more then just a poke on the enemy ?

Who use flares when they don’t fight the defiler ?

Who use something else then coil mortal on frigates in PvE ?

Since when is it ok to have fighter move faster then interceptors ?

Even worse, why the hell does my Sirius goes as fast as some Empire interceptors with 250k survavibility and insane damage ?

What’s the role of guards now that we have destroyers ?

 

 

There are so many holes in the balance.

#5

31 minutes ago, Swifter43021 said:

Nah I’m not asking for a nerf or anything. 

I’m just saying that stuffs aren’t equals. Some things are useless, some are a must have. I used the word “broken”, because these new items are so unique on their own that you MUST use them. Like the 12k shield regen when an enemy die within 2km. Compared to all the shield modifiers available, this is a must have. All tyrant need to equip this mod. 

While on Sirius, it’s the opposite, It have a unique motor modifier and active module, but nobody use them because they are useless. 

 

 

What I’m saying here is that recently they add a lot of content with complex mechanics. But nothing is balanced at all, and in the end, nobody use them !

You saw someone using the new Alien fighter beam and do more then just a poke on the enemy ?

Who use flares when they don’t fight the defiler ?

Who use something else then coil mortal on frigates in PvE ?

Since when is it ok to have fighter move faster then interceptors ?

Even worse, why the hell does my Sirius goes as fast as some Empire interceptors with 250k survavibility and insane damage ?

What’s the role of guards now that we have destroyers ?

 

 

There are so many holes in the balance.

And they will remain there since Destroyers are part of the game now. All these new changes of balance are just how the game is now, nothing we can do but adapt and overcome difficulties we experience. Also the Li’lith Beam if that’s what the fighter weapon is, i see a lot of fighters use it, especially in SCL as it is very effective against destroyers without shields and all interceptors…and coil mortars are the best bet for PVE it’s only logical to use them, all the other weapons are used in pvp and other modes all the time, so nothing wrong with balance there. Nothing wrong with not using flares honestly, they have their uses but there is other things better than them, so don’t feel down they are not being used, just the way it is not hurting anyone…

#6

You don’t understand. I’m not saying things are over/underpowered. 

I’m saying that everybody use not even half of the things available. 

 

You want another example? 

The Sirius, it has 2 “unique” special module. One made for all r14 (stabilizer) , and one made specifically for him (the 40% damage buff thing). 

Nobody use them. 

And I’m not saying “only a few”, I insist on the nobody. ALL Sirius use the “old” speed special module.

This is unbalanced. 

 

 

And I can already predict that if Empire get the “old” Empire router, nobody will ever use the stabilizer too. 

 

What I’m saying here is : This is sad. They offer us a lot of diversity, but one option totally dominate over others, killing the real diversity. 

#7

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#8

7 hours ago, Swifter43021 said:

Nah I’m not asking for a nerf or anything. 

I’m just saying that stuffs aren’t equals. Some things are useless, some are a must have. I used the word “broken”, because these new items are so unique on their own that you MUST use them. Like the 12k shield regen when an enemy die within 2km. Compared to all the shield modifiers available, this is a must have. All tyrant need to equip this mod. 

While on Sirius, it’s the opposite, It have a unique motor modifier and active module, but nobody use them because they are useless. 

 

 

What I’m saying here is that recently they add a lot of content with complex mechanics. But nothing is balanced at all, and in the end, nobody use them !

You saw someone using the new Alien fighter beam and do more then just a poke on the enemy ?

Who use flares when they don’t fight the defiler ?

Who use something else then coil mortal on frigates in PvE ?

Since when is it ok to have fighter move faster then interceptors ?

Even worse, why the hell does my Sirius goes as fast as some Empire interceptors with 250k survavibility and insane damage ?

What’s the role of guards now that we have destroyers ?

 

 

There are so many holes in the balance.

Thilith is awful, yes

Flares are good when you’re building a dogfighting interceptor and really, really hate tacklers that keep slowing you down. On that topic, the energy drain immunity implant is kinda trash.

… I don’t use coil mortars on my frigates in PvE, but that’s because I’m too lazy to switch all the time >.>;;

Cruise engine could practically make a subsection of the forum, there’s so much to say about it.

Because destroyers are very, very big in comparison to interceptors, and thus much easier to hit. Albeit they also have approximately 20x the survivability, or ~10x if all incoming damage is explosive.

Guards are surprisingly good at suppressing the suppressors. It’s a frigate, so long range engagements are possible, plus anomaly generator is hilarious good against destroyers that are too dumb to turn away from it. Phase shield helps with tanking main cannon fire from one, too (not that a broadside won’t kill you more or less instantly anyways). Now, of course, the once-kings of area control have been totally unseated by destroyers, but that’s not to say that they’re useless now.

 

Regardless, I agree with your general point, these are just bad examples.

 

7 hours ago, Marcs25 said:

Tyrant isn’t even being made so early now, give the Devs time to see feedback once people start building them…other things are just personal opinion i suppose on your part…I agree though some modules need a rework, but please don’t suggest a Nerf to the Tyrant before we are even able to build it…I and others haven’t been on the grind for over a month just for it to get whined about while it’s practically non-existent in the game right now. That passive mod seems a bit OP but i’m pretty sure it will help greatly in keeping the giant target alive in a major fight, let the true tank have it’s status in the game please…the only thing i care about and have been waiting for months to get my hands on…

You read implied nerfs where I see implied buffs / general balance changes. i.e., middle special module for Sirius and Tyrant is, I am almost sure, a practical joke from the devs, whereas something like combat reboot on a gunship is practically mandatory.

#9

No game will ever be perfectly balanced,some people just like to choose the mainstream,no-brainer ways,its even worse that those are better rewarded than the other ways,so what good it will be to fight against it?At least sometimes,I really want the Warp-Reflector,imagine reking Predators in dogfights,as soon as I will build Tyrant I will go for that full shield regen build to cover that too.

#10

I’m not asking for perfect balance . 

But come on,  there are many things in the game that are obviously stronger then any other choice . 

 

The main thing I’m talking about is passive modifiers, implants, and SP passives/specials . 

We have many choices, but there is always one stronger. So we use only one thing in the end. 

 

Don’t tell me that devs seriously though that 10% weapon damage is equal to 10% crit chance. 

#11

Funny thing: 10% weapon damage is indeed equal to 10% critchance IF you have +100% critdamage and NO base % critchance.
But there the balance jump out of the window. You simply don’t have 0% base crit chance.
And the special modules on R14 destroyer are really trash now.
Especially the old 3-choice one is now only the faction-itself one.
20% weapon damage? Empire get them by standard now, other not. But even with this ‘unbalance’ would you be a sitting duck to eat a lot of incoming fire/AG for just a small 20% buff? The 40% is easier, but if you have a slow tackler you could never reach it = total no spec module. And even if you use it, the duration is so short that you can easy be stunned/have no target and then you wasted it.

#12

1 hour ago, Lord_Xenon said:

Funny thing: 10% weapon damage is indead equal to 10% critchance IF you have +100% critdamage and NO base % critchance.
But there the balance jump out of the window. You simply don’t have 0% base crit chance.
And the special modules on R14 destroyer are really trash now.
Especially the old 3-choice one is now only the faction-itself one.
20% weapon damage? Empire get them by standard now, other not. But even with this ‘unbalance’ would you be a sitting duck to eat a lot of incoming fire/AG for just a small 20% buff? The 40% is easier, but if you have a slow tackler you could never reach it = total no spec module. And even if you use it, the duration is so short that you can easy be stunned/have no target and then you wasted it.

Exactly

And for crit chance, it’s not even true, because even with a 0% base crit chance, we have r2 implant and cpu slots. Haha

#13

Its exactly like dat!

#14

Your calculations and assumptions on weapon dmg being always better than crit/crit dmg are wrong because you are ignoring what the game is and all the factors out there.

weapon dmg bonus and crit chance/crit dmg modify the dmg in different layers - weapon dmg goes into a UNMODIFIED base dmg, crit applied on a FINAL (aka after all the base modifications) dmg.

The more +weapon dmg effects are present the more valuable Crit chance/Crit dmg is (Valkyrie, Orion, Captain Bonus, passive +weapon dmg bonuses, pulse discharges, ammo, implants, Weapon Inhibitor and Signature masking) at certain points +10% crit chance provide MORE dmg than +10% base weapon dmg, and depending on conditions and builds, +20% Crit dmg can out outeight +10% Crit chance and +10% base weapon dmg.

Weapon cooling rate is actually pretty good bonus depending on a weapon and allows you to not use cooled ammo or cooled engines, allowing you to utilize ammo slot for more dmg or utility and/or extra passive slot that can be utilized for again more dmg or tanking or speed or w/e. As example - if you take a coil gun and make build it into fire rate (212 s/m) you get about 7.8 overheat time/1 cool down time Bonus on cooling rate boosts your DPM by almost 10%, and if you take Halo that has even shorter over heat cycle/longer cool down, you are easily looking at 10% increase. Granted EM bonus on Destroyers is pretty crap.

1st Sirius’s special (+40% dmg) is a great module, if you are doing mid-long range in random PvP and that is best for PvE hands down, even in Dreads 1st special is good, but in leagues and mid-close builds 3rd Fed routers is better, that is a valid alternatives. 2d is pretty bad, but w/e

Mjolnir - “Remove all negative effects” is very-very awesome, almost all “high level” gunships are using exactly this, removing negative effects provide a huge utility, same as the overdrive that gives you resistances - it is actually a pretty good bonus for a certain team compositions

I use Coils only in Defense contract and Fire support, and I heavily face palm everyone else for not using Heavy Blaster in all other PvE missions

Flares are awesome

and so on and so forth

A lot of the things affected by the meta game change, even if their own power did not change, competitive of modes and weapons heavily dependent on a situation, which fluctuates due to the meta and general census of stupid people in the game, that have no idea what is good and what is bad and mindlessly copying what better pilots are doing. 

Of course there are things that are weaker or overnerfed due to the again cries of clueless people, but there are not as many as you make it out to be. For example modules for shield regeneration are good in power, problem is that there are better ways to obtain regeneration, like shield booster, before shield booster got all these multiple buffs, modules for regen were pretty good and usable - meta change and if you buff passive regen to “compete” with resistance you will come to the point that it still will be used with other sources of regen, making the regen OP and go-to choice.

 

Balance of things is like a  web it is never a 1 to 1 comparison - you affect one unrelated thing and it will ripple through the whole system. That is why when you speak of a balance you should e speaking of it as a whole or at least as major parts, never compare things 1 to 1 out of the game realities.

#15

The Tyrant’s special module that gives shield regen when taking damage by gaining a charge every 15000 damage is useless compared to the +400 shield regen special module. The active modules that gives you shield by damaging the enemy is also fairly weak and doesn’t give much shield at all, so you’d be better off using a more useful module.

The shield module that gives shield when an enemy dies is usless compared to simply putting on resist modules. honestly, these modules need a buff.

#16

18 hours ago, Swifter43021 said:

Or we can speak about Brokk :

1200 healing per second… For BOTH hull AND shield, with a DPS of 2k. 

Eclipse launcher ? 1200 healing per second, but only for hull. And a DPS of 1k7. 

Or Brokk special that heal 6k shield per seconds in a huge area for a total of 18k heal, that also destroy objects, and drones still attack targets/heal yourself when not used. Compared to the standard special, that heal only 5k shield once in a smaller area.

Do you actually own the Brokk? I agree that the special module is somewhat powerful. But mind that the Brokk is incredibly sluggish and turns like an overloaded garbage truck, just as the container thing at its back suggests. And the camera angle/position prevents you from shooting forward if you actually want to see your target (unless you zoom out). The Eclipse launcher has a great benefit with its splash damage/repair. (And I’m not sure but if it counts as explosive damage too, you’ve got yourself another bonus.)

Also the way the brokk’s main weapon works is somewhat tricky. By default, the beam is of blue colour which does nothing. When you shoot at a friendly or enemy ship, it turns either green for repairs or red for damage. But sometimes, especially when shooting at interceptors, only some of the beams connect and you get only a part of the repairs/DPS. Also, it repairs the shields first and can only repair the hull when the target’s shields are full. So you burn through your energy reserves restoring someones shields that would have regenerated otherwise anyway and then you can start repairing the hull. Having lower energy reserves also hinders the effectivity of your MSG and NDC and binds you to using the energy module at all times.

The only real problem I see with it, is the fact that it can heal Outposts in Special Operations and Cargo Ships/Turrets in PvE. But that’s a thing that should not be removed from the main weapon, BUT should be added to the Eclipse Launcher.

#17

I believe they will be able to buff the specials on destros at least after all is done, also can’t wait for the regen build posts on tyrant, now it should be interesting to play jericho ![:D](<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/006j.png “:D”)

#18

1 hour ago, xKostyan said:

The more +weapon dmg effects are present the more valuable Crit chance/Crit dmg is (Valkyrie, Orion, Captain Bonus, passive +weapon dmg bonuses, pulse discharges, ammo, implants, Weapon Inhibitor and Signature masking) at certain points +10% crit chance provide MORE dmg than +10% base weapon dmg, and depending on conditions and builds, +20% Crit dmg can out outeight +10% Crit chance and +10% base weapon dmg.

And like I said, I made an app to calculate the real DPS, taking everything you said here into account. 

As far as I know, the Antares isn’t a covert ops. 

So there may be some rare cases where, with Captain buff or a command that don’t go pew pew alone , 10% crit is more damage then 10% damage (and then we can include r1-2 implant to kill things). 

But, most of the time it’s not, and even like that the overhaul DPS is higher with the damage buff instead of crit buff (Because you know, mods have cooldowns). 

 

 

 

Anyway, it’s going out of topic. I’m not talking about a specific OP/underpowered thing. 

I’m saying that SC tend to have a lot of things available, but with a lot of useless stuff, and I’m sure you know it (especially with Mjollnir special).  

 

 

 

If you guys want a real example of what I’m talking about :

The Sirius improved coolers IS a shared coolers, but with better stats. 

Consequence? Shared coolers is totally useless on Sirius. 

They added one item for Sirius, and this item made another one useless. More items, but not more diversity. Which is bad IMO. 

 

That’s what I’m talking about, not “This or that is stronger”. 

I want diversity. 

#19

Even Antares can easily get over +dmg threshold to get crit’s

  • pulse discharges, router in +dmg mode, +dmg ammo (A lot of people are using Curved Ammo on a Meson),  +dmg implant that can easily and unconditionally break you even with +crit chance giving you as much or more dmg than a + weapon dmg passive, and then you count in all external temporal conditions like Valk of a friendly command, or a wild ECM running a weapon inhibitor on you, or you run as a captain and has all the previous bonuses in the same time and it becomes clear that +crit simply gives you more dmg

Mjolnir has all 3 competitive specials, dunno what you are talking about.