AI Controlled BUILDERS turn on Friendlies

Location - Stripped Deposits… parked at the Jericho Turret closer to the Sanctuary Gate.


Parked just above the turrets, and using missiles to lock onto Cybers, the following has occurred numerous times.


As the missile is in flight and homing, a BUILDER will move into the path of the missile to also attack a Cyber.

the missile then strikes the BUILDER and the AI then assumes the attack is upon the BUILDER and not the Cyber.


Once the Cyber(s) are eliminated, the BUILDER NPCs then pause for about 30 seconds and instead of continuing on their AI-path, they then advance and attack.   They assume the missile attack was upon them and not meant for the Cyber, even though they moved into the path and were never targeted.


In testing the error multiple times prior to reporting, I used different ship types and different weapons trying to see if it was due to missile logic or Ammunition logic.  In all cases, the BUILDERS turn and attack.   In reviewing the Forum for similar posts, I read another post very similar but could not reply due to the topic being locked after Development indicated there was no bug.  The ships attack those that attack them.    This I can understand.  But is not the case.


What the AI is doing is assuming that ANY damage that occurs to the BUILDERS from anywhere, even if they move into a path of ammunition or of a missile, is an attack on them.


The same situation occurs when using Long Range Frigate and Jericho Guided Torpedo to eliminate Aliens.   The exact situation occurs when assisting the BUILDERS/ESCORTS in attacks on Transports.  Cybers attack… the call is triggered over comms to assist and I launched a torpedo take out the group of Cybers.    The AI moved the Defenders thru the resulting Nuke fireball and they received damage.   Result was that I attacked them and they turned on the Frigate after pausing the 30 or so seconds to locate it once all the aliens were eliminated. 


Using EM Scatter I only delayed the 30 seconds.  They pause in place and wait for the EM to expire (I assume they are in AI-search mode) and once it expires they locate the Frigate and zero in to destroy it.   Repeated EM Scatters have no effect once the LRF is located.   They know the location and head for it.   Moving the LRF cancels the EM Scatter and they will pursue the ship to destruction.


As a Developer myself, I would review the logic to implement one of two things.   Attacks on the AI Controlled ships are ignored if they are in active battle at the time, and then once they exit from the combat (I assume the 30 seconds is the logic doing this and restoring values to continue onward) then any attack on them would be considered Hostile and they turn to attack.    Currently any friendly fire that touches them or they move into is being considered hostile.




The reason they do this is so you can’t just kill them by not locking on. Perhaps the threshold could increase while they are in battle mode but you should still become an enemy if you do more than 50% damage for example.

Is that the threshold, 50%?   Hummm…


Is the 50% on the total damage sustained or by one person during the battle?   

I can easly see them obtaining 50% total from the entire battle with a group of cybers and as one moved into the path of my one missile, they then review their damage and see the threshold exceeded and turn on the Friendly.


It cant be 50% damage from one missile (seperate tracking of every user’s values would result in huge array processing in logic that would be needed to track X-number of given users all assisting.  One could assume a fixed array size to track a finite value of users but again, thats a waste of machine resources and poor coding.  


So I will go with the Threshold being 50% total so that in any battle, any number of user could join in.   But again in that case ALL the users would be turned upon by the AI.   I dont have access to the Source so Im just de-coding in my head as to the AI processing based on what I do in Open Space to see it execute.   I purposely perform things at times just to see what the AI will respond with.


If the AI is to be “human”, then it should be coded to NOT go after Friendly Fire when it is a result of a close up battle.   Ive sat and watched them attack and defend against the cybers.   The AI moves them in and up close to the aliens and the alien AI does the same.  The result is a very up close battle.   One can not shoot into it without the possibility of striking a Friendly.


As far as humans go… if such a thing were to occur, and a battle was up close and one friendly struck another, humans would not turn and attack afterwards.   There would be dialog and some IM SORRY DUDEs and life would move on.


This was why I suggest the option of ignoring a strike while in the battle.   If the battle ends and strikes still occur, then they are not of a Friendly Nature.  


There has to be some change to how they operate in these cases.   If not, then no user will want to come to aid of the attacked transport for fear of missing and striking a BUILDER or ESCORT due to the in close nature of how they operate.   If they do, a AI controlled ship will review itself and if the 50% threshold is exceeded, will then turn red and turn on the very ones coming to aid them.


Users will then begin to let the two AIs duke it out and when its all over move in and pick up the Containers.   Which is NOT the purpose of the entire thing to begin with.


Another possibility of AI logic would be to see the 50% threshold breached, and then enter into a subroutine to randomize or formulate based on User Karma…to come up with the option to turn and attack or not and go about their merry way.   Higher positive Karma users would be evaluated as Friendly Fire and forgiven whereas Neg Karma Users would be those that were in deliberate attacks upon the AI Ships.


Ive been trying to make sense of the Karma value anyway besides just a stat on a Pilot Profile, so incorporating some decision logic based on its value makes it seem useful to me.  Using it to formulate a decision in the AI would be a good use of the value.

Okay… with the 50% Damage thing in mind, Ive been experimenting over in Stripped Deposits.


I let a group of the BUILDERS do away with all but one Cyber and when I went to take out the last Cyber with a missile, one of the BUILDERS moved in and killed it but was again in the path of a previously launched missile from me.  Its a Standard Homing Missile, not a Torpedo.


The missile struck the BUILDER who had been previously damaged in the battle with 6 Cybers (group of 4 and 2 then joined durring) and the result was that it had received more then 50% damage from doing battle.   I didn’t do the 50%, the Cybers did, but the AI sees that *AFTER* the BUILDER moves into the path of a missile, and gets hit, if it has more then 50% damage from a battle, it then turns on the User trying to assist in protecting.  I never locked onto any BUILDER and was very careful to lock onto only cybers and never shoot the weapon, only use missiles.   I cant direct a homing missile or denate it prior to strike like one can with a torpedo so one is just left with trying to outrun a group of BUILDERS that turn on those trying to help because they get all pissy about being damaged from killing cybers and move into friendly fire that cant be helped due to an up-close tactic they use.


So basically its this — Assisting in a battle to protect can get you killed if the defenders receive 50% or more damage and move into the path of friendly fire.  So why assist?


I dont know at this point if its just BUILDERS or all AI controlled ships.   So far I see it in just BUILDERS since they seem to be abundant in the Stripped Deposits section.   They really move in close for a kill.   Ive watched ESCORTS before and they seem to circle the target more then the BUILDERS do but I could be wrong.   It just appears to me that BUILDERS come in close to kill more then other ships. 

I didn’t say it was 50%, I said maybe it should be 50% instead of the few thousand damage it seems to be. At least when they are fighting. Otherwise it should stay the same.

Currently you get aggro’d for doing a few thousand damage or you get criminal for certain ships if they die and you were involved with damage assist, no matter how small or big.

well, we gonna to try to fix it

Some more Stripped Deposits information —


Okay, the issue is not just Weapons or Missiles or Torpedo flak.

Today, I set down Drones.   They cause the BUILDERS to rebel also.


Here is exact steps for replication:


  1. Teleport in from Mendez Station to Stripped Deposits.


  1. At the teleport in, turn right and downward and thru the asteroids.  Head for the Jericho Generator Station (used as a waypoint)


  1. Drop a Sentry Drone at the Generator Station.   It can fire on the Cyber owned turret at their Generator station off to the left some ways away.   The action really annoys the aliens. *laffs*


  1. Fly thru the ORANGE GIANT gate (as a 2nd waypoint) but do not active and jump.


  1. Just after the gate, turn to the left and head for the Jericho Turrets.  Approach the first one from the top.


  1. Just after the Jericho Turrets there is lone asteroid slightly above and in between the one just past but before the next turret base.   Its unique in shape and has an L-shaped shelf on it, with the higher part towards a second Cyber Generator Base with Turrets on it.   The Cyber Transport passes in front of this cyber generation station.  Drop a HEAVY GUARD DRONE at the L-shaped asteroid using the depression to mask the drone somewhat from the Cybers but high enough to target and shoot at the 2nd generator station.


  1.  Turn 180 degrees and go back to the first Jericho Turret base.    The Cyber trap is set.   Approach the Jericho Turret base from the underside and actually park in the cubbyhole they have.   Its where fuel canisters usually are in other bases, but this one does not supply fuel.  Rotate 180 degrees again and face the HEAVY GUARD DRONE off in the distance.  You will be able to watch the drone.  Now just wait.  It wont be long (a few minutes) before the cybers are at your door.   They have been becoming all annoyed from the first drone drop and have been grouping together.   The second heave drone drop has them really pissy (it fires on the second generator base of theirs) and they come looking for YOU, not the drones.  


  1. First wave will be Cybers.   Let the base flak missiles take them out.  (pick up trophies if your fast) but get back and park at the cubbyhole.


  1. Second wave will be Biomorphs.  They come 5 to 6 in a group and head for YOU, not the HEAVY GUARD Drone.  (assumption for me is that the AI on the Biomorphs is to take out the ship, thereby taking out the annoying drones also)   (Some do take the Guard Drone out at times but I think its because they cant find you in the cubbyhole. )


  1. Now with yourself just parked and laughing…watch as the HEAVY DRONE will rotate to your direction and start taking out Biomorphs.  As its doing this, they collect at the doorstep of the cubbyhole.   Then come the BUILDERS to start taking out the Biomorphs.    During the melee at some point a BUILDER will move in close to a Biomorph and directly into the line of fire from the HEAVY DRONE.   It doesn’t care who is shooting, it wants to kill the Biomorphs at the turrets.   Since the Biomorphs require many hits to die, the BUILDERS take a lot of hits also.   Some from friendly fire that they move into.    Its not me targeting the BUILDERS its not the HEAVY DRONE targeting the BUILDERS.   They are moving into the shots the HEAVY DRONE has calculated and fired previously but because its some distance way, the Builders can move into the shots path and be struck. 


  1. Result —  BUILDERS will turn on the HEAVY DRONE first and kill it after the Biomorphs, then come to the doorstep looking for you.   At one point I had every BUILDER on the region congregating at the cubbyhole trying to take shots at me.   I had to wait for another wave of BIomorphs to come take out some before activating Invisibility on the Tackler and afterburner out of there for the Mendez gate, dock in the hanger to reset the BUILDERS from attacking again.  I didn’t pick up any trophies on that particular trip and the flight was a loss (expense of repairs/rearm vs collected items).  But the data and information of the AI was more valuable to me from what I saw and learned of the AI.  I then executed the same steps over and over on multiple passes and trips to work in Trophy collecting in between waves of Biomorphs and angry Builders.  If the Builders would stop turning on me It would be a nice little Biomorph Farm. *grins*




There is exact steps to create the conditions for Development to review the BUILDERS TURN ON FRIENDLIES issue.  I say issue and not “bug” because to me there’s a difference.   Bugs are source and syntax errors.  Issues are things that come up from working logic that conflicts with other portions of working logic.   Both may have correct syntax but don’t mesh together when the application is running.  


I know it can be tough to do at times based on User’s comments, but as Ive said before, I’m a Developer in Real and I totally understand the nature of Debug and Testing.   So I’ve recreated the exact conditions for the logic to be stepped thru or variables to be captured and examined.  


Hope this helps!  

Logs and screenshots from the latest set of runs that duplicate the Issue.

Also in the zip file are 3 screen captures.

I did them because to me it appears as if an Index for an array item is not functioning correctly.

The Combat Log online is showing that the Builder was killed by me using a weapon Im not using.

The Weapon is what Cybers usually carry.

I have the GraviBeam weapon, not the TurboPhaser as is what is stated in the screen  log.

The zip file has the days log in it.

Interesting reading…lol…


BTW… I didnt make it to the warp gate this time out and was killed as the log shows.

… I came out of camo and got caught by more Biomorphs.


I hate the Biomorphs.


Good Luck with the Analysis and Resolution 



[BUILDERS](< base_url >/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=9836)


I just had the ESCORTS of a transport do this very same thing over in Stripped Deposits.

Moved into the path of a  Sentry drone previously fired shot at a cyber and then turn on me after the battle.


I’ve been doing different things and watching the AI over there past few weeks.

A thought occurred to me as to a possible means of a Solution to cure this.


When I first started playing, I assumed that the “PROTECTION” flag being set to ON was to tell the AI that you were a friendly and no damage would happen to you if you moved into the path of fire or if AI controlled ships moved into yours, and that if you rammed into something the hull would not be damaged, such as ramming the Station as one learned proper ship control.   Later I learned it doesn’t protect from friendly fire.


But what if it did?   What if “protection” actually meant protection from Station Controlled ships?  (aka  AI controlled ones).  A lot of the existing logic to do so is already written, just implement it differently.  When on a PvM, you fire on a friendly, its ignored, fire on a station in Open Space and its ignored when the flag is on, ect.


So what if that form of thinking is expanded to the BUILDERS, ESCORTS and other AI Controlled ships when a user has that flag set to on?   Attacks on them are ignored and no one ends up becoming a Criminal in the long run, just because the AI moves a ship into the path of an already fired shot as it does now.


If someone really wants to fire on Friendlies…the setting is set to off and no protection.   This would be similar to the theory of a shared Signal Channel that the ship shields would all be using.   One could even go as far as coding it per Faction…so that Jericho ships firing on Jericho ships are ignored but if another faction is in a Jericho sector, one could fire on it and cause damage just as the logic functions now.   One could still perform Achievements (kill other faction ships)  then and never have to reset the “Protect” setting.


Adding the Faction distinction also allows for a Pilot to own multiple ships from different factions(as I and most others do also) and fly them.  But I base out of Mendes Station and if jump into a non-Jericho ship, I would be flying as another Faction, not Jericho so why am I in Jericho sectors?  No I am subject to Jericho pilots wanting their Achievements to shoot other factions.   No setting change to the PROTECT.  The choice of ship overruled the Protect for Friendly Fire.


I’m thinking along the lines of…

Whatever ship is being piloted at the time, if that ship is in the Faction’s Home Sectors, and the setting if on, logic is to ignore all friendly fire type conditions.    So if I have :Protect on, and undock a Jericho ship and flying around in Jericho sectors and some AI controlled ship moves into the fire path, the “Jericho Phased Shields Code” would theoretically all be set to the same channel onboard and fire is ignored but other Factions would not have the Jericho code so one could fire and damage them or they fire on AI ships and damage them.  Concept is for AI ships, not User ships so one could still fire Jericho-to-Jericho if both are users and have some beef between them as logic permits now.


The concept is based on REAL Militaries (I’m thinking along the lines of NATO countries) that do this.   When Joint Sorties are flying over skies and two or more NATO countries that have different aircraft are in the same Sortie, they all have a beacon code that is transmitted so that if you are USA or UK and visually see a MIG fighter, your weapons do not lock onto it automatically since it could be a MIG that is actually a NATO membered owned one and involved in the Sortie with you.    The Logic in those systems know Friend and Foe based on the shared signal not based on SHIP Types or country of origin.


This concept might be a better solution to implement then going thru code adjusting attack patters of the AI or keeping them away from the targets more so that they don’t get struck in heated up close battles and many aliens and Friendlies all swarming around each other and moving into each others fire paths.