2x squad vs 4x squad

Same thing progression/grind. Also there may be 185 ships in SCon, but do they really feel that different from tier to tier? To me it’s often just more of the same.

As to MWO, personally I don’t see much grind in there at all. I think I have some 270 million c-bills and nothing to spend them on, but on the other hand I don’t plan to own every mech and have them all with a full loadout rather than move items around. As you said, there are no tiers, so once you buy a mech that you like you can just keep playing it forever.

MWO fails on so many other levels though that I only fire it up once in a while. The latest stunt of those devs I had the displeasure to experience was the “UI 2.0” - the worst in UI design anyone could conceivably come up with; they threw usability (which was bad to begin with) so far out of the window it probably hit some poor Chinese in the face.

However, MWO did eventually fix their originally abysmal netcode, something SCon desperately needs as well (no, adjusting your own aim for lag is not a skill anyone should have to have in 2014). And I guess their recent write-up on match-making is worth a read in the context of the discussion here: http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/151705-launch-module-update-–-feb-27-2014

Yeah I read the matchmaking post, and that’s where those 88% come from, oh ok I see now it was 84% but same thing. It’s an interesting read, and data as well. They are going in right direction, but their players have valid concerns as well, as always, players have better suggestions there too. A 20 toner is not the same worth as a 35, they need to take tonnage+class into consideration as mentioned, before the release of this, or else it’ll be just funny…

 

And yeah the new UI is an abomination. As if hangar wasn’t hard enough to navigate trough earlier, it’s even worse now. I just can’t force myself anymore to try equipping anything or even launching up the game anymore. The UI is tedious.

 

And 270 mil? Jesus christ, when did you farm all those creds, I’m like sick poor in there. Starting up in SCon is much easier, you switch ships all the time with 3 different races and well, everything flies and just feels differently. While in MWO you could argue that some mechs have slightly faster torso twist, better angles or positioning of the arms, but I’m not playing several weeks just to get another class because it has arms in a slightly different position, but it’s basically still the same mech with different looks.

 

So, not to be too much off topic, if were talking about grind/progression, even with premium time in game like MWO, I still think grind is much worse. With premium, you get a lot of stuff in SCon, at least it feels like you were well compensated for your achievements. Or maybe the game is just more fun for me, and i don’t see battles as grind. Could be that’s the reason (MWO fail, bad example, even SCon with all its hiccups is still more enjoyable). 

I already explained why a slow changing ratio is no issue. As to matching them, same as you would do with any other stat, you distribute them in a way so team averages end up as close as possible.

You said that but still there is a flaw. You assume that W/L ratio is the ultimate number that would make sure you win. But what if it is not? Because if it is not, those 20players in the next game would be matched the same and again and again not matter if they win or lose because W/L changes slowly.

You said that but still there is a flaw. You assume that W/L ratio is the ultimate number that would make sure you win. But what if it is not? Because if it is not, those 20players in the next game would be matched the same and again and again not matter if they win or lose because W/L changes slowly.

Learn to read. I said good match-making is about giving both teams equal chances to win, not ensuring wins. I’ve responded several times to your other allegation now as well.

Also knowing who will win in Star Conflict is typically extremely easy. The team that has an engineer, or if both do, whichever teams has more engineers and tacklers. Assuming both teams play for the win.

Learn to read. I said good match-making is about giving both teams equal chances to win, not ensuring wins. I’ve responded several times to your other allegation now as well.

Also knowing who will win in Star Conflict is typically extremely easy. The team that has an engineer, or if both do, whichever teams has more engineers and tacklers. Assuming both teams play for the win.

Because you assume W/L  gives equal chances to win. That is where I disagree. 

W/L ratio gives nothing. W/L ratio is a statistical representation of how often somebody wins/loses.

W/L ratio gives nothing. W/L ratio is a statistical representation of how often somebody wins/loses.

:facepalm:  Then why do you suggest to use it in MM if it is useless?

Sorry, I’m not the type to chase my own tail, please have this discussion with someone else.

Tacklers are that that important? My criteria are more engines, more gunships, and LESS lrf.

I play nothing but T4 atm and other squads don’t seem to have that issue. Also I know WPK sends multiple 4-man squads to T3 simultaneously - if those squads queued for T4 or T5 instead you’d always have someone to be matched against even in nobody else was playing.

The only one I see making excuses is you (although I do remember a few other WPK guys bitching when T3 4-mans would be matched with T4 randoms a patch ago).

If WPK can send multiple squads to T3, maybe they could get a group to solo queue for T4 and do MM based squads and get matches while helping the game by creating T4 matches.  It’s just a thought.

 

Actually yes, that does happen sometimes. We didn’t even think about doing that in T4 if we’re alleady playing eachother. But, would you bother keep trying your luck over and over again every day with a T4 squad to *perhaps* get a game and if *maybe* there is another 4man squad in your corp queuing as well to play *against* your own people *every* single time that happens? I am to see how many players are willing to do that.

During EU times, I haven’t seen T4 that dead.  Unfortunately I’m unable to play those times outside of the weekend if I dedicate myself.  The first thing that needs to happen to populate a tier is players dedicated to playing that tier.  There’s a reason T4’s deader than T5, everyone goes to T3.

 

How about sector conquest?

ANd here are my observations from this weekend:

During the day (that i never get to play usualy) i was amazed with amount of players, and i jumped on a wagon and played t4 (first time in couple of months, in our time zone T4-T5 does not exists what so ever)

I feel your pain.  I hate being stuck in T3.

 

The biggest thing that makes people think that WPK is simply T3 farmers now, is that you never play Sector Conquest. All this “carrying Aces” excuses kinda don’t cut it - you can always form a wing, and during EU times there are quite a few corporations that will assemble a wing if you let them know. Even when you play squads in “low population time” and Sec Con is hardly anything more than 4v4, you still play T3. And another thing is that most of WPKs are saying that they are playing for team play at this point, and not for rewards (hence there are hardly any rewards in T3 at this point), but Sec Con is the ultimate place for teamwork, there are good players and there are bad players, like in every other mode, but it doesn’t change the fact that there is way more tougher opposition in Sec Con, than in random T3, i agree that rewarding is kinda meh in Sec Con, but it does not eliminate the gameplay.

And btw it is not only from english speaking community, i lurk russian forums alot, and by most corporations WPKs are viewed as “meh, those are t3 farmers” AND this is an actual quote from DNOs and SYNs better players

I barely know what to say about WPK anymore.  Time zone differences mean I rarely see them.  I’ll add this,it seems in every “dominant” corp I find some of their members in T2 when I need to drop down to grind.  Sometimes they’ll be flying premium ships, so they aren’t grinding synergy.  Yes, I still need to grind T2, and technically T1.

 

 

I think those in T1 would disagree.

 

Why they dont disagree? Because they dont give a damn about comming to the forums and complaining about it. And why ppl farm in squads T1? Because it is counterproductive in some cases to farm any other tier. And why that happens? Because the game is broken.

 

Then just stop farming in PvP! What is there to farm about anyway, and why do you need to be in a squad to farm?

 

Synergy farm, i still have about 3 or 4 R9 ships to max, once i finish ill start dedicating time on T4’s MAYBE, or, just unlock T5’s and stick with T5’s since theres no point in T4’s in terms of number of games.

 

 I wouldn’t be surprised if people farm in T1.  T1 players are learning enough that experienced players would have to try not to farm.  But there are players who play in tiers lower than their skill.  I think bots being in PvP again is to address the lack of matches, but I doubt it will help the people who can’t understand and/or try to win a game solo.  Some of those players don’t want to risk DSR on a win.

 

Hmm what? Win ratio is exactly the stat describing the likelihood to win a match. Everything else is just a crutch. Efficiency is entirely unrelated.

 Except it ignores recent history and game learning.  Long term averages unfairly include the learning stage but ignore the mastery stage.

 

Disclaimer: Before you or anyone jump on me again for the term kill squad, that’s not a derogatory term, it simply denotes a squad geared for killing instead of just some people grouping up synergizing random ships together. Also I fly solo for reasons my own, I have nothing at all against players squadding up to kill, farm or do whatever. So do not make this personal because neither am I.

 It is a derogatory term.  It implies the squad is more interested in kills and DSR than wins.  They may win as a nature of that strategy, or even win most of the time.  It doesn’t negate the fact that they’re more likely to accept defeat to protect their DSR.

 

Sometimes capturing beacons is merely a means to fish for kills.  The beacon capture was to look for people to kill rather than captures to win.

 

Tacklers are that that important? My criteria are more engines, more gunships, and LESS lrf.

My criteria is people effective in their roles as their roles while working with others to fulfill their roles.

 

I don’t know how to make that broader.

Except it ignores recent history and game learning.  Long term averages unfairly include the learning stage but ignore the mastery stage.

I had addressed that:

 

Since you’d use the current win ratio (say for the past 50-100 battles or some kind of weighted moving average) the slow change issue is in fact none.

re kill squads:

It is a derogatory term.  It implies the squad is more interested in kills and DSR than wins.  They may win as a nature of that strategy, or even win most of the time.  It doesn’t negate the fact that they’re more likely to accept defeat to protect their DSR.

Sure, kill squads do typically have the lowest amount of objectives completed because they anchor around their engineer and heal stations and … kill. If you do it like ESB kill squads and anchor in front of the enemy spawn it typically results in a win because someone else on their team is bound to get the objectives while they do that. However, I was not referring to any of this when we were discussing match-making balance hence the disclaimer.